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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<ck_>
Good morning, beach
<ck_>
in your essay on perfection vs. performance orientations, you say "I myself recently discovered a marvellous feature in a programming language that I had purposely avoided for the past 10 years"
<ck_>
what is the feature?
<beach>
CLOS
<ck_>
O_O that's surprising
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<beach>
Interesting. If I type (to Google) the name of the Scheme object system that was worked on by my colleague at the time and that made me not look at CLOS, there are no answers. But if I type my own name, there are pages and pages of results. :)
<ck_>
ooh. So it wasn't just that "object systems are bad" it was that /their/ object system is bad
<beach>
Yes, this colleague did a PhD thesis on object-oriented Scheme.
<ck_>
situations like that can be so draining
<beach>
He had bad things to say about CLOS, and it was convenient for me to believe it.
<beach>
It is turned out to be true, there was a lot of stuff that I could ignore, and save a lot of work.
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<ck_>
yes I understand. But was it true at the time, even a little?
<beach>
No.
<beach>
Just psychologically convenient for me.
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<no-defun-allowed>
I want to do an experiment to see how often "duplicate" objects appear in (a reasonable fraction of) my Lisp image (with varying definitions of "duplicate"), so I wrote a short program to traverse objects and count the times they are referenced: https://pastebin.com/Dv0tGv8D
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<no-defun-allowed>
Someone suggested it wasn't correct, then backed out, but I wonder if there's something wrong with my method or if EQUAL objects do appear in my image about 5.4 times.
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<LdBeth>
Characters, I suppose
<jmercouris>
no-defun-allowed: how can your objects appear a fractional amount of times?
<jmercouris>
I see, it is an average
<no-defun-allowed>
jmercouris: on average
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<jmercouris>
anyone know how to add indents in multiline strings without them appearing in the resulting string?
<jmercouris>
I don't like how it looks in the source
<loke>
jmercouris: #.(format nil "foo~:X blah")
<loke>
where X is a newline
<loke>
sprry it should be ~@
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<jmercouris>
loke: I see, there's no special string syntax? I have to use format?
<beach>
"have to"?
<loke>
jmercouris: No special String syntax. But the FORMAT will be executed at READ time, so it's as standard as anything
<jmercouris>
"have to IF want to indent multiline strings without indents appearing in resulting string"
<loke>
You could also write your own reader, I guess. I'd be trivial but the benefit compared to #.(FORMAT...) is questionable.
<jmercouris>
it might be a little syntactically cleaner, perhaps
<jmercouris>
or more obvious to the untrained eye
<loke>
I'd say that an untrained eye would likely be more confused seeing your custom reader syntax, as that wouldn't be anythign previously known :-)
<loke>
While the #.(Format syntax is obvious.
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<LdBeth>
jmercouris: I remember there’s tilde newline
<jmercouris>
I'm not trying to make new lines
<jmercouris>
loke: a good point, it would take me a few seconds to realize what is going on but yes
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<jmercouris>
I'm not much of a format wizard, still learning
<LdBeth>
jmercouris: tilde newline ignores newline and the indentation
<jmercouris>
I just looked at the documentation, yes
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<loke>
~newline ignores newline and indentation. ~@newline ignores the indentation but keeps the newline
<loke>
~:newline keeps the indentation but ignores the newline
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<pjb>
jmercouris: yuo can always implement your own string syntax!
<pjb>
jmercouris: using reader macros.
<jmercouris>
perhaps, but I think loke made a good point
<jmercouris>
I mean not perhaps as in "perhaps it can be done", but "perhaps I may do it"
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<loke>
Reader macros are really cool and all, but I have to admit I've never used them for effect.
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<Xach>
loke: like the @export macros and such?
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<pjb>
minion: memo for jmercouris: I would say that it depends on how many such strings you have in your sources. If only one or two #.(format …) will be ok. Otherwise the specific reader macro is indicated. You can use another character than #\", eg. #\« … #\» or #\[ #\]
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
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<flip768>
does anybody else believe that some of the examples in trivial-types are wrong?
<flip768>
eg. why is (typep '(1 2 3) 'tuple) NIL? That's a tuple, isn't it?
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<flip768>
and why is (typep nil 'tuple) T? Perhaps as by the definition above, but I wouldn't see an empty list as an (explicit!) tuple.
<beach>
TUPLE is not a type defined by Common Lisp.
<Xach>
flip768: from the type definition, it looks like typep checks of tuple *require* specifying the types of each element.
<Xach>
tuplep is more in line with your expectation
<Xach>
flip768: or (tuple t t t) for a tuple of three arbitrary elements
<flip768>
Xach: yeah, possibly. my expectation would have been that a(n unspecified) tuple doesn't match NIL.
<flip768>
Xach: yes, thanks.
<Xach>
NIL is the properest of lists!
<JohnMS_WORK>
Anyone know of a good library LISP that can be embeded in a C++ application?
<warweasle>
JohnMS_WORK: You mean ECL?
<warweasle>
Embeddable common lisp? OR maybe TinyScheme if that's more what you need.
<JohnMS_WORK>
Thanks, I didn't know about ECL. Looks perfect.
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<flip768>
Is there a ITERATE clause that binds to multiple elements of a vector? Like (for (values a b c) = (...) ) binds to the three return values?
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<pfdietz>
Reader macros are something you want to use sparingly, as there's just a single "namespace" they can fit in. If you use them, use named readtables.
<dlowe>
You could theoretically use unnamed readtables too, if you wanted a life of suffering
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<pfdietz>
Masochism-oriented programming
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<Xach>
sb-mop
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<dlowe>
(1+ *xach*)
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<Xach>
I'm looking to get into screamer.
<Xach>
It looks like a study group is going over it!
* Xach
checks the videos
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<pfdietz>
Spoiler: there is no actual screaming.
<Xach>
Don't be too hasty, you aren't familiar with my learning style
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<Bike>
Primal Scream Therapy As Pedagogical Tool
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<mfiano>
Yeah we reviewed it on the study group last year.
<ga>
;\
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<dmiles>
hope my { .. } reader macro isnt too confusing there
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<Xach>
that is the least confusing thing there.
<dmiles>
starts around line 51
<dmiles>
i mean the declarative parts
<White_Flame>
"Dec 13, 2035" code from the future!
<dmiles>
hehe
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<dmiles>
well i get tired of seeing myself look at filke dates on code projects as if the date was somehow realivant... so i did that as a joke upon that line of thinking
<dmiles>
(tio remind myself not to pay attention to dates)
<dmiles>
So basically that file is in the language of MELD/KIF
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<dmiles>
So the question to Xach, Non-Hand-Crafted Einstein riddles run in what programs?
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<afiddegnum>
hello, i read over and lover lisp macros, can any one explain in a simpler way about them and when to use themn? so far i understand, macros creates executable functions, right ?
<no-defun-allowed>
Macros are functions take code as input and output more code.
<no-defun-allowed>
*...are functions that take code...
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<afiddegnum>
what type of code should macro take and generate what type ?
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<no-defun-allowed>
Code in Lisp, preferably. Compiler might freak out if you write something like (defmacro define-foo () int foo() { return 42; })
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<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: You can actually do infix in s-expressions. (foo 1 + 2 * 3) isn't hard. What you can't do (easily) is -foo... and you certainly can't use ;s since the rest of the line won't be read
<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: (infix foo (4 5 6)) is close enough to foo(4, 5, 6) anyway...
<aeth>
Faking another language directly in macros is discouraged (outside of LOOP), but doable if you don't need a direct syntax match
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