jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.5.4, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<Josh_2> Is there a library for creating latex documents?
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<asarch> One very stupid question: if I do in the Slime's REPL (ql:quickload :mcclim) and then I (load "mycalculator.lisp"), does (load) "starts" a blank new SBCL session or does it "use" what already has been loaded?
<Bike> the load function just reads a file and evaluates the forms in it one at a time.
<Bike> it's mostly equivalent to entering all the forms into the repl one by one.
<asarch> Thank you!
<asarch> Thank you very much Bike! :-)
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<asarch> Where could I learn how CLOS was implemented?
<loke> asarch: Reading the AMOP is a good first step I think.
<asarch> Ok, ok. I'm on it :-)
<asarch> Thank you loke
<loke> AMOP describes how to implement CLOS from scratch, so I'm guessing it will be useful.
<asarch> I thought it was about how to use CLOS and object-oriented techniques to create a metaobject protocol
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<pjb> asarch: one of the first implementation of CLOS was PCL https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/oop/clos/pcl/0.html
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<asarch> Thank you pjb! :-)
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<flip214> Josh_2: why not create something simpler like markdown, Org-Mode or whatever, and use "pandoc" to convert? would make debugging much easier.
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<flip214> of course, if you want to use all the power of LaTeX, that won't help.
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<p_l> org-mode let's you go full power of LaTeX, though
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<ck_> yes, using nothing but some ascii characters, a few scripts, and LaTeX
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<lispNewcomer> Hey people - I'm working my way through 'A gentle introduction to symbolic computation" and doing the exercises in the book. Currently stuck with figuring out input/output
<lispNewcomer> Basically, I'm figuring out how to use prompts for reading input, and currently I have this snippet of code:
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<lispNewcomer> (defun my-square ()
<lispNewcomer> (format t "Please type in a number: ")
<lispNewcomer> (format t "The number ~S square is ~S.~%"
<lispNewcomer> (let ((x (read)))
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<lispNewcomer> x (* x x))))
<Lycurgus> a) there's a newbie channel, and b) use a pastebin
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<lispNewcomer> ah, sorry
<Lycurgus> also i/o is relatively straightforward in lisp, compared to say haskell
<lispNewcomer> could you direct me to the newbie-channel?
<Lycurgus> looking it up
<lispNewcomer> yeah I figure it should be - but after the example in the book im referencing doesn't work properly I
<lispNewcomer> I'm thinking it would be interesting to know why
<lispNewcomer> thanks!
<Lycurgus> #clnoobs
<lispNewcomer> beautiful, I'll try my luck over there
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<jackdaniel> channel is #clschool
<jackdaniel> what do you mean that it doesn't work properly?
<lispNewcomer> Basically, it seems read is evaluated before the first format, essentially printing out prompt only after I input my value
<jackdaniel> try putting (finish-output) after format
<jackdaniel> your line may be buffered
<lispNewcomer> Oh hey, that did it!
<jackdaniel> cool :)
<lispNewcomer> Lovely, simple error on my part then. Good to know in the future that outputs can be buffered
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<_sfiguser> hello all guys, i wanted to learn a new efficient and useful programming language... and was intrigued by lisp ... an you guys tell me why i read a lot about lispy language excitement and their modularity and repl-based behavior? i mean these things are also present in python/ruby/perl no?
<Xach> _sfiguser: not to the same degree, and not combined with other powerful features
<Bike> well, the lisp repl through slime is pretty nice.
<_sfiguser> Xach,can you develop please?
<_sfiguser> Bike, what's slime?
<Xach> _sfiguser: like compliation to native code, runtime object schema evolution, a powerful condition system with restarts, stuff like that.
<Bike> the "superior lisp interaction mode for emacs". a common lisp IDE thingie.
<Lycurgus> its the defacto common lisp IDE in emacs
<Xach> _sfiguser: the value of some of these things do not become apparent until you use them a while, so it can be hard to simply hear a description and imagine the improvement.
<Lycurgus> s/defacto/default/
<Xach> Like hearing the plot of a movie and trying to imagine whether it will be good or bad
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<_sfiguser> is clisp still currently developed? i mean or it is an obsolete programming language where new projects are not started in it?
<Lycurgus> i think so
<jackdaniel> clisp is one of many common lisp implementations
<Bike> you think there's three hundred people hanging out in a channel for a language none of us use?
<Xach> _sfiguser: clisp does not mean "common lisp" here, it means the clisp implementation of common lisp.
<Lycurgus> but I just installed it yesterday for a 10 yo project and it had the same version number
<jackdaniel> both things are not abandoned by people
<Lycurgus> i.e. the version the 10+ yo project and the current ubuntu version were both 2.49 something
<jackdaniel> I'm looking at the repository and I see last commit 2w ago: https://gitlab.com/gnu-clisp/clisp
<_sfiguser> also i don't understand the hype around macros... i mean to me it seems just like writing functions...
<jackdaniel> fact that they did not have release for some time tells us, well, not much
<_sfiguser> with better performance
<jackdaniel> minion: tell _sfiguser about pcl
<minion> _sfiguser: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<_sfiguser> sort of C preprocessor
<shka__> _sfiguser: it is not for that, but pay no mind to macros
<jackdaniel> macros to C macros are what functions are to binary data
<jackdaniel> maybe not the best comparison ,)
<White_Flame> _sfiguser: they are function, but they receive source code as parameters, and return source code that should be the expansion
<shka__> they are pictured as a killer feature, and in fact i don't think they are all that critical
<White_Flame> so it does metaprogramming right inside the runtime
<shka__> starting learning lisp by focusing on macros is kinda bacwards
<shka__> because
<shka__> 1) macros can be difficult to understand
<shka__> 2) there is more stuff in lisp
<White_Flame> and the "source code" is not strings, but lists of symbols & numbers that it can easily manipulate & template just like any other data list, instead of needing separate ASTs or source code strings
<shka__> 3) lisp is not useful because of macros, macros are useful because of other features already present in cl
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<Xach> maybe it's like "what's the big deal with seeing a band play live? i can watch youtube videos and get the same experience"
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<Xach> "every car is pretty much the same to drive"
<White_Flame> but really, lisp macros are an intermediate/advanced programming concept that people writing basic code tend not to understand why they're used
<White_Flame> (but at least WAY more understandable in the "why" than haskell monads ;) )
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<Xach> also, it is perfectly valid to not value the qualitative differences or find the drawbacks outweigh the benefits. but the people here have generally made their choice.
<moldybits> _sfiguser: lisp's syntax maps trivially to lisp data structures, so manipulating code is simple. taking advantage of this simplicity by writing functions to manipulate code is a natural side effect. in C and similar langauges it's messy and people prefer to avoid it.
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<White_Flame> right, in other language it tends to be outputting a text file with generated source code in it, call the compiler, and either dynamically link or launch a separate process. It's done, but not often because it's a mess
<White_Flame> with lisp, you can just code-transform anything you want using lisp macro functions themselves
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<sjl_> what's that old joke? something like "C macros are to lisp macros as IRS tax forms are to poetry"
<moldybits> _sfiguser: why it's a nice thing to have will not be obvious if you're had to learn to avoid thinking about syntax because other languages don't allow you to change it easily.
<p_l> sjl_: I think you're insulting tax forms there :P
<Xach> sjl_: i think i heard it from drmeister
<p_l> though I heard US IRS' ones are pretty bad
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<sjl_> Xach: yeah, I think you're right. probably from a talk
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<jackdaniel> shka__: they are "killer feature" if you take it from the language design angle
<jackdaniel> in other languages you need to wait for the vendor to implement particular syntax
<jackdaniel> lisp liberates you from that to some extent
<beach> _sfiguser: Your failure to appreciate Common Lisp macros is an example of what Paul Graham describes as the "Blub paradox": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Graham_(programmer)#The_Blub_paradox
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<drmeister> Xach: Yes, that's my quote - for better or worse.
<drmeister> I used that at an llvm meeting and no one threw anything at me.
<LdBeth> Good evening
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<dlowe> pg assumes one continuum of Goodness, but I think it's more instructive if one posits multiple continuums.
<dlowe> Lisp is Blub with regards to type expressivity, for instance.
<dlowe> (at least CL is)
<LdBeth> But what’s type?
<dlowe> That's not important to what I just said.
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<ebrasca> dlowe: What CL lack in type expressivity?
<ebrasca> dlowe: I think you can define types and use them.
<dlowe> Learning a language in which types are primary means of expression and control is a very different experience than CL, which is mostly just promises to the compiler, or C-like languages that use them primarily for representation.
<ebrasca> I like to define my structures with types.
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<schweers> I have a generic function of one argument, and a class. Can I easily find out which methods are applicable?
<schweers> I.e. jump to the source code.
<schweers> In Emacs using SLIME, I might add.
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<dlowe> schweers: M-. should throw up a selector window
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<schweers> I know about that. Not exactly what I want, but the list is not too long. I guess I can make this work.
<Bike> i don't think there's any built in way to limit it to applicable methods, but i think it wouldn't be that hard to write
<schweers> Now that I think of it, looking at the precedence list of said class first and then at the methods is close enough to what I need.
<Bike> maybe it would be with how slime currently is, i think you just give it a name and the implementation decides what to put in the buffer
<dlowe> You can also just run compute-applicable-methods-using-classes
<jackdaniel> I was about to suggest that
<Bike> you can get an actual list of applicable-methods with (mop:compute-applicable-methods-using-classes generic-function (list class))
<jackdaniel> haha
<Bike> where mop: might be sb-mop: or clos: or ext: or something
<jackdaniel> c2mop:compute-applicable-methods-using-classes (library closer-mop)
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<schweers> that’s actually not too bad
<schweers> thanks :)
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<jdz> schweers: C-c C-i on the method/generic definition.
<jdz> schweers: You can also do the same on DEFCLASS, and it will show which methods specialize on that class.
<jdz> To get the intersection you'd have to write some code.
<schweers> jdz: that doesn’t work for me. It just does completion.
<jdz> schweers: The C-c C-i binding for me is slime-inspect-definition function from slime-fancy-inspector.el.
<schweers> okay, that works
<jdz> Right, that's my own binding.
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<loke> Does any of you guys have experience with CL-VECTORS?
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<Xach> loke: yes
<Xach> loke: i used it as the basis for vecto
<sjl_> I've also used it
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<loke> Xach: Oh great. I have a (hopefully) simple question about it...
<loke> I'm trying to leverage it for the Xrender code for McCLIM. I can't seem to figure out how to do one thing, and I'd just want to know whether it's possible or not:
<loke> Xach: I'm creating a path of lines that are very thick (let's say 10 pixels wide). When I use the PATH-ITERATOR-SEGMENTED, the iterator returns a set of line segments that makes up the outline of the path (i.e. if the path consists of a single line, the iterator creates 4 line segments that together make up a rectangle (i.e. the thick line)
<Xach> yes
<Xach> it can do that!
* Xach closes case
<loke> Xach: The question is, when I draw this using polygons in Xrender, I can't use this outline directly, because for paths more complex than a single line, the outline is concave
<loke> Is there a way to get the outline in the form of convex polygons?
<loke> Hopefully the question is clear enough.
<Xach> loke: so you are using cl-vectors for its ability to convert e.g. lines into paths for a drawing api, and not for its pixel coverage calculations?
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<loke> Xach: Yes. that is correct
<loke> Xach: The fundamental low-level operation I need to convert all the path operations to is simple convex triangles
<loke> convex polygons
<Xach> loke: right. i don't think cl-vectors does tesselation for you.
<loke> (but any convex polygon can be tivially converted to triangles)
<loke> I see
<loke> But if I use a separate algorithm to break up the concave outline into triangles, then it would be possible?
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<Xach> loke: yes
<Xach> loke: and i believe that is a well-studied domain
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<loke> Xach: OK, Thanks. I will experiment with that.
<loke> Oh and one more thing, if I may
<loke> When I make a _really_ winde line (50 pixels?) and :ROUND capping, it still only breaks he arc on the edges down into very few parts.
<loke> Is there a way to control the resolution of the Arc-to-Line-segment conversion?
<loke> Need to leave the computer now. See you later, and thanks Xach for your help.
<loke> Appreciated!
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<bug2000> Is Common Lisp the Language a suggested read?
<ck_> depends on what you're looking for
<jackdaniel> bug2000: no, after that language got standarized and there are multiple changes
<jackdaniel> minion: tell bug2000 about pcl
<minion> bug2000: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<jackdaniel> minion: tell bug2000 about ansi
<jackdaniel> minion: tell bug2000 about clhs
<minion> bug2000: please see clhs: To look up a symbol in the HyperSpec, try saying "clhs symbol". For more information on the HyperSpec see http://www.cliki.net/CLHS .
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<bug2000> I can borrow the book from a friend on a dead tree. So I was wondering if it is a good option or I should skip it.
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<bug2000> Thank you for your input. I'll skip the book.
<jackdaniel> it is an interesting read but I'd start with Practical Common Lisp
<jackdaniel> very good material
<sjl_> CLtL2 an interesting read if you already know CL and want some insight on how it was designed. But it's not a good book to read if you're trying to learn CL, as others mentioned.
<sjl_> s/an/is an/
<bug2000> I see. Most of my background is reading SICP (which I'm reading with friends)
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<devon> Anybody know how to contact cl-geocode author Kevin Layer?
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<tsizz> Hello. Woah this website has changed in the past 2 month
<pfdietz> webchat.freenode.net ?
<ck_> Yeah I just love the changes on this website, it's great
<tsizz> its nice and crisp
<tsizz> feels like slack tho
<Bike> it's a new client.
<ck_> it's like a whole new game
<tsizz> Um. I just wanted to ask if anyone knows about common lisp web stuff
<tsizz> Well. i guess ill give a background. i have a final project due in a month. and it can be any subject really, but i wanted to make it web related bc i have been learning full stack.
<ck_> you wanna host hot web 3.0 interactive responsiveness?
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<tsizz> and yeah i hardly know lisp, so i am wondering if this is a hard thing to do in a month
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<tsizz> ck_ idk what that means :(
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<ck_> tsizz: I was joking. Take a look at https://edicl.github.io/hunchentoot/ for a popular common lisp webserver
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<sjl_> tsizz: I think it would be hard to learn common lisp and finish a final project in a month, yes
<sjl_> common lisp is a big language that I think is well worth learning, but it took me a lot longer than a month to feel comfortable in it
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<tsizz> sjl_yeah i figure. i know javascript fairly well. is there a way i can incorporate a few features that is only in CL
<ck_> maybe you could clarify what kind of final project you mean, and what exactly "web related" means?
<tsizz> The final project was pretty open ended, but the professor gave us some ideas.
<tsizz> These two I think I can do well
<tsizz> • Build a GUI-based native application• Build a web application using one of the languages we’ve covered (e.g., using ghcjs withHaskell).
<tsizz> GUI-based can be interesting for me as i use react and maybe can try react native for GUI-based native app (is that what he means?)
<ck_> Still doesn't tell me too much about the scope. How many weekly hours was this course?
<Xach> 1 month is too short. There is not enough off-the-shelf mature stuff to reuse to get closer to your destination. It requires pioneering and patience.
<tsizz> normal semester length 4 credit class at 4 year uni
<tsizz> but our teacher sort of messed up and so our time was really constricted
<tsizz> so i don't think hes expecting something amazing, but decent
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<tsizz> but yeah perhaps ill just do react native and learn CL inmy free time
<aeth> GUI native is the weakest part of CL. The most hassle-free is SDL+OpenGL, but that's a special kind of GUI and not high level enough.
<tsizz> im graduating next month, so i wish i had more time to learn CL before gettign into full time job
<tsizz> is React Native GUI native?
<tsizz> okay idk if i know what GUI is
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<ck_> O_O what kind of major did you study for?
<tsizz> Computer Science :(
<tsizz> i mean i literally just see GUI as a front end UI of website, but a desktop app lo
<tsizz> but idk if thats right from reading wikipedia
* ck_ blinks slowly
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<tsizz> :(
<tsizz> :'(
<ck_> I'm sorry but I have to return some video tapes now. Good night and good luck with your project
<tsizz> thanks :) goodnight
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<jackdaniel> I'm still struggling with "Learn Common Lisp in 10 years" challenge
<aeth> A GUI is usually a window that takes keyboard and mouse input and has a "WIMP" interface of "windows, icons, menus, pointer", although touch-based GUIs are obviously increasingly common
<tsizz> @aeth so GUI has to deal with the computer hardware
<tsizz> i don't think i've ever done something like that..
<aeth> GUI has to deal with keyboard/mouse and maybe touch/controller events
<aeth> At least on a desktop
<jackdaniel> it doesn't, usually you use toolkit which abstracts many things away
<aeth> Usually you use a toolkit
<aeth> e.g. Qt
<tsizz> that sounds like front end UI as in it deals with certain keyboard/mouse actions. or is it completely different
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<aeth> The GUI is a possible frontend interface
<pfdietz> Even after you learn Common Lisp, it happens that you have a problem and run across an obscure part of the language you had forgotten about that precisely solves it.
<pfdietz> My most recent experience with that was *read-default-float-format*
<aeth> tsizz: Outside of the web, there might not be a clear frontend/backend separation if it's all local (not networked).
<aeth> The GUI app might just directly do things in its event handlers...
<tsizz> @aeth if i just build an iPhone app. is that GUI -_-
<tsizz> im so confused lol
<tsizz> GUI-based*
<aeth> tsizz: The GUI is e.g. the touch interface of an app
<aeth> It's its own paradigm, usually event-based so e.g. click/tap this button to call this function
<tsizz> @aeth okay thanks
<tsizz> may try that idea then. submitting will be weird tho.
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<tsizz> I shall come back here once im done with classes and want to learn CL :)
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<pfdietz> See also #clschool\
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