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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<Harag>
morning
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<Harag>
I have a little object db I wrote, its designed in 3 logical layers basic, indexed and the kitchen sink thrown in. The idea is to use different asd files to load only what is needed for a layer. My question is should the layers be in their own package/namespace or should I keep it in the same namespace
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<ck_>
I'd say it is better form to use separate packages
<Harag>
that was my feeling as well but I was hesitant that I could find my self with circular references some time in the future as I add more functionality
<Harag>
suppose i must just be careful to not end up there
<PuercoPop>
Harag: how does it compare to bknr-store feature-wise?
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<Harag>
its a very naive store uses plists and the persisted data files are human readable
<Harag>
I never used bknr-store, but my previous experience with clos based data stores left me disillusioned
<PuercoPop>
It can't be that naive if it has indexes. Storing things as plists seems like playing to Lisps strength more than anything.
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<Harag>
:PuercoPop i call it naive because of that very fact, everything including the index is using lisp and minimal functionality, the way the data is stored in separate files often negates the need heavy indexing
<aeth>
Harag: as a last resort to avoid a circular reference, you can pass a symbol from one layer to another e.g. in a macro... it's pretty rare, though, even with one-package-per-file
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<no-defun-allowed>
Okay, I broke something in SLIME and any attempt to type anything in the repl just gives me the message "Text is read-only". What should I do?
<aeth>
Harag: e.g. if A depends on B but B needs a symbol from A, then you can pass the symbol from A into B in e.g. a macro api.
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<Harag>
:aeth ok, well I wont pretend I can see how that code looks in my head now but I will keep it in mind. the store will most likely only ever be used and extended by me so I will just have to solve the problem if it ever comes up
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<Harag>
:ck_ :PuercoPop :aeth thanx for the input
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<ck_>
no-defun-allowed: where's your cursor at?
<no-defun-allowed>
the end of the buffer, at the _ in "CL-USER> _"
<no-defun-allowed>
nowhere stupid, it should work but refuses to
<ck_>
does , work?
<no-defun-allowed>
,in-package doesn't
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<ck_>
hmm. Your asking here tells me you'd rather not restart, right?
<no-defun-allowed>
yeah, I have some slightly elaborate state
<ck_>
try to set inhibit-read-only to t
<no-defun-allowed>
doesn't like that, "Wrong type argument: integer-or-marker-p, nil" and the input has the package name font
<ck_>
hmm. Have you tried sending something to the repl already? C-c C-j or whatever the standard binding is
<Harag>
:PuercoPop ... on that point of lisp strengths, doing a reduce with string comparisons over 10k plists ... 0.004 to 0.008 seconds of real time... i can live with that
<ck_>
talking about slime-eval-last-expression-in-repl
<no-defun-allowed>
C-c C-e works, I'm going to dump out a load form and restart since I made a method for that
<ck_>
C-c C-o, or C-c M-o doesn't do anything for you?
<no-defun-allowed>
nope
<ck_>
Weird. Well, I have no further suggestions other than using the ielm repl to fiddle with the lisp repl buffer state
<ck_>
Good luck.
<no-defun-allowed>
I've restarted it and restored the state using make-load-form (which I wrote a method for).
<no-defun-allowed>
Oh fuck, those methods didn't get everything.
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<schweers>
no-defun-allowed: I’m a bit late for this, but maybe it happens again. Did you try killing the repl buffer and calling M-x slime-repl RET?
<no-defun-allowed>
jonatack: Not really, that would lose my state, which I recovered only because I could recreate it since it's mostly transforming an online API.
<jonatack>
no-defun-allowed: oh right, sorry
<no-defun-allowed>
Maybe trying to create a new REPL would work better. I'll test it.
<no-defun-allowed>
Yeah, killing the REPL then M-x slime-repl looks like that would cut down lossage.
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<Harag>
:beach ...just curious is some one actually working on a lisp operating system or is it just an exercise on paper?
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<beach>
Harag: I am. SICL is going to be a safe implementation that will be the basis of a multi-user operating system.
<beach>
Unless I die first, of course.
<beach>
Harag: My first-class global environments were designed so that several "users" can co-exist in the same system.
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<beach>
Harag: It is thought that getting a bootable image is the hard part of an OS, but I don't agree. The hard part is making it safe and stable.
<beach>
In fact, the bootable part is not even terribly interesting. A lot of work could be done by running the entire thing as a Unix application.
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<beach>
The hard (and interesting) parts are getting a satisfactory user environment and a satisfactory application API.
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<beach>
Harag: And Mezzano already exists, of course. But I don't know what state it is in.
<beach>
And lately frodef has made some noise indicating that he might work on Movitz again.
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<Lycurgus>
it's the lisp version of the great american novel
<dlowe>
that and making a viable replacement for the hyperspec
<dlowe>
which one day I will try to get back to :p
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<bjorkintosh>
what's wrong with the hyperspec dlowe?
<LdBeth>
To be concise, it was aimed for language implementors so a language learner could get confused
<dlowe>
The main wrongness is that you can't distribute modified versions
<dlowe>
so no notes, corrections, or links to other sources can be added
<bjorkintosh>
can it be forked and then notes, corrections and links added?
<Lycurgus>
they and allegro are the ibm and ms of lisp
<LdBeth>
You may able to write a “companion book” and hyperlink to it, I guess
<beach>
I also need an editable version of it for WSCL. I started trying to turn the dpANS document into a single LaTeX document (not a single file, a single document), but it is just too hard.
<moldybits>
some of the links in the hyperspec are wrong
<beach>
But I am convinced that such a version of the dpANS would be quite valuable.
<moldybits>
what's dpANS?
<Lycurgus>
LdBeth, yeah nobody can prevent that sort of thing, it's not copyright infringment to promote an asshole
<beach>
moldybits: "draft proposal for American National Standard" I believe. It's the draft of the standard, but I understand it is virtually identical to the final standard.
<beach>
moldybits: And that one is free for us to use.
<moldybits>
ah, but freely available
<beach>
Yes.
<moldybits>
familiar with that situation from C land
<dlowe>
beach: I have a project that turns the latex into a s-expr markup
<dlowe>
it's really tough, though
<beach>
dlowe: Good. But the dpANS is not LaTeX, and that is a large part of the problem.
<beach>
Plus, it is one plain TeX document per chapter, with lots of custom macros that have been superseded by LaTeX.
<dlowe>
I made a TeX parser/macro expander, with the idea that I could manually specify macros that didn't expand.
<beach>
That sounds like a good start.
<dlowe>
The hope is to produce something that is >90% converted and then do the rest by hand to produce the final document.
<LdBeth>
Is anyone here familiar with SGML?
<dlowe>
and then write an html renderer for the structured markup
<beach>
dlowe: Sounds like a plan.
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<dlowe>
It's a long term plan - I started this like seven years ago
<beach>
There is no rush.
<dlowe>
I suppose not
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<beach>
Lycurgus: Are you saying that planning a Lisp operating system is a futile project?
<p_l>
beach: I'm pretty sure some "great american novels" got delivered
<beach>
Maybe so. Just checking what Lycurgus meant here.
<Josh_2>
But there already is one :O
<dlowe>
it's an idiom in America for a thing that everyone says they are working on.
<p_l>
dlowe: or at least aspire to
<p_l>
last entry on the list of novels considered to be such is from 1997, so not bad
<LdBeth>
GG
<Lycurgus>
beach, no not at all have my own intentions in that direction
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<beach>
OK.
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<galdor>
is there a way to get the output of the compiler when the cffi groveller fails ? I end up with a UIOP/RUN-PROGRAM:SUBPROCESS-ERROR which only contains a code, command line and process which is a UIOP/LAUNCH-PROGRAM::PROCESS-INFO with OUTPUT-STREAM set to NIL
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<Xach>
galdor: i run the build in emacs and scroll back :(
<Xach>
the screamer-plus license looks untenable :(
<galdor>
it seems to end up in *inferior-lisp* indeed; still better than nothing, but I really need to write a patch so that the output end up in the condition
<galdor>
"You may not distribute the code without prior consent from me." -> well at least it is clear :)
<galdor>
unless I'm mistaken, it means it is not open source
<Xach>
i have written to the author to see if that is still the desire and intent
<Xach>
maybe their desire has changed since then
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<ebrasca>
I think phoe is making some documentation.
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<dlowe>
yeah, it's kind of a different thing he's trying to do
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<Harag>
:beach ...thanx for side tracking me there for a couple of hours some interesting reading, there is a lot of projects out there but they all look seriously short of manpower :(
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<Harag>
:beach ...just thinking out loud ...why not start with just a server version server version of a lispos? Something that can be put in a docker container...
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<dlowe>
If I understand what you're saying, that is basically a lisp implementation.
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<Harag>
:dlowe ...well yes minus the linux os that would normally used... would it be much smaller? maybe throw in a library for the docker containers to work well/easy together...I am no expert just wondering
<Harag>
for one it would be immediately useful as a web server at least
<Harag>
or a distrubuted DB
<White_Flame>
as beach said, there's no real benefit at the user level or application developer level between running bare metal and running as a process on top of an existing OS
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<dlowe>
IPC gets a lot nicer
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<Harag>
:White_Flame not sure what you mean...are you saying that there would be no benefits in application design, roll out or performance to a lispos?
<dlowe>
imagine being able to just pass a complex object and its referants to another program
<White_Flame>
Harag: since common lisp is an image based system, the running lisp *is* already an OS.
<Harag>
ok
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<Harag>
:White_Flame so what is needed then? I superior container for the image? Or nothing?
<dlowe>
The running lisp isn't an OS. wtf. There's no interrupt handling, no drivers, no DMA, no anything that qualifies
<White_Flame>
Harag: needed for what specifically?
<White_Flame>
dlowe: right, the hardware tends to be abstracted away, but it still loosely counts in terms of managing your execution environment
<dlowe>
What's needed is an army of programmers to write hardware drivers and interfaces and code to coordinate between them all.
<White_Flame>
why not, at least in the interim, take advantage of all that which already is there in extant OSes
<dlowe>
That's the status quo
<White_Flame>
but the "comprehensive lisp-based user environment" still isn't built up, at least not to the level of lisp machines
<White_Flame>
and that layer doesn't need to run bare metal
<White_Flame>
IMO, that becomes kind of a distraction
<dlowe>
Okay, yes, that's true.
<Harag>
:White_Flame what are the components that need to make up the lisp-based user environment? This stuff is far out of my scope of experience so excuse the obviously dumb questions
<White_Flame>
running multiple graphical applications in a full-screen environment in a single lisp image
<White_Flame>
including the repl & dev stuff
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<Harag>
:White_Flame ...ok so you are saying that some one should start working on VR user interface instead or even better a direct brain interface... that way it might be ready by the time the non lisp world has implemented there version *wink* *wink*
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<Harag>
their
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<Harag>
Jokes aside is "comprehensive lisp-based user environment" such a difficult thing to do or is their just not enough will power and manpower out there?
<White_Flame>
basically a lack of manpower behind a single project
<White_Flame>
likely because lisp is such a roll-your-own language
<White_Flame>
commercial ventures unified development both of teams creating lisp machines with full lisp OSes, as well as unifying Common Lisp from all the naturally fragmented lisps before it
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<Harag>
:White_Flame ...yes I remember the days before I went full lisp... I never rolled my own
<dlowe>
I mean, pretty much every big system has had money behind it
<dlowe>
Even the ones that start small and scrappy didn't get big until there was money.
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<Harag>
well I am off have a good evening
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<jack_rabbit>
Hey, jackdaniel. I was looking at ECL, and it looks like it's actively developed. I don't see any releases since ~2016. (https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/files/release/) Are there any plans to publish new releases of ECL?
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<jackdaniel>
jack_rabbit: there are
<jackdaniel>
you may check out the milestone on our repository to see remaining two issues before we start testing
<jack_rabbit>
Oh, fantastic!
<jack_rabbit>
90% complete.
<jackdaniel>
but they are not small (however they are already started)
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<jack_rabbit>
"re-implement green threads" yeah, that doesn't sound small. :)
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<jackdaniel>
green threads are not hard given you have delimited continuations and timers (for a scheduler)
<jack_rabbit>
I see.
<jack_rabbit>
Are the timers and testing the difficult ones then?
<jackdaniel>
delimited continuations require changes of how runtime environment is handled, the actual context switch part could be implemented with longjmp
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<jackdaniel>
timers are not difficult but also take time - I want to copy sbcl's api and functionality instead of providing simpler version
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