jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.5.4, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<beach> I can just see it. Some users voting for features that would totally destroy the nice properties of Common Lisp, and not knowing the consequences. Like making EVAL take into account lexical bindings and other stuff like that.
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<beach> I also think that people have very strange ideas about standards, and about standardization.
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<no-defun-allowed> One of the things I've heard from one specific /r/lisp troll is that standards encourage lowest-common-denominator thinking to implementation features.
<beach> I don't know about the "encourage" thing. But that is certainly what a standard should be.
<beach> ... or else it would be acceptable to very few.
<no-defun-allowed> But if you use implementation-specific stuff, are you writing CL/Python/sh/C code or are you writing SBCL/CPython/bash/GCC code? And what about versions if some internal magic changes? Then it's SBCL 1.5, Python 3.7, etc code. Guess he's a good troll if I'm thinking about it.
<beach> So one of the misconceptions is that you can only use things that are in the standard, speaking of what you just said.
<beach> I was talking about libraries, not about implementation-specific stuff.
<beach> Some people with this misconception then happily go out and use entire programming systems that are based on no standard whatsoever.
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<beach> Another misconception has to do with what a standard *is*. It is a document published by an *independent* organization. And that document must have an ISBN or some other identifier that uniquely defines the document. The document can then not be changed in any way.
<beach> So a definition of a language published by the same people who provide an implementation does not count as a standard.
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<beach> Many of the people here who want more features in Common Lisp would like for the language definition to be more like that of some non-standardized languages, in that it is updated more often. But, since those other languages do not have any standard, the people who want more features are completely free to go define a new version of Common Lisp with those features.
<beach> Their language definition will be neither more nor less worth than that of Python, for instance. Neither is a standard.
<aeth> beach: I don't think C++ has many fans here, but one thing it does is release new versions of its standard every 3 years, since 2011. That is probably the limit of the speed of a standard, once every 3 years. (Of course, it can take longer for the features to reach implementations.)
<aeth> heh, ECMAScript is annual
<aeth> I don't think annual would work with a language like CL
<beach> But C++ is a language without a reasonable macro system and with very complicated syntax. So any new feature requires a new definition of the language itself. We don't have this problem, so we should not behave as if we do.
<aeth> Yes, I agree.
<no-defun-allowed> Absolutely.
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<aeth> A hypothetical newer CL standard would imo have to be mainly about exposing primitives for building higher level constructs through macros. Stuff like making threads standard. Not stuff that can be implemented easily in macros.
<beach> But, as far as I can tell, all implementations agree on how threads work, and we even have Bordeaux-threads to unify them. So why do we need an update of the language definition?
<beach> Do other language standards mention threads?
<beach> or rather, what other language standards mention threads, and what do they say about them?
<aeth> Imo, threads would be the least controversial thing to add, not the reason for doing a standard.
<beach> What?
<aeth> There are some rarer things like package local nicknames, extensible sequences, extensible streams, etc.
<beach> Again, why do you want this to be in a standard?
<beach> Is it worth the effort of a new standard, just to stick in stuff that all implementation already agree upon?
<beach> I think not.
<aeth> As far as threads go... I think in C they're handled through POSIX? It looks like C++ added a "thread support library" in C++11. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B_Standard_Library#Thread_support_library
<TMA> If Java is considered standardized, threads are part of that standard.
<aeth> beach: Well, on the topic of threads, bordeaux-threads is sort of the intersection of common threading features, afaik. It doesn't cover everything that e.g. sb-thread can do
<beach> TMA: Java is not standardized.
<beach> Absolutely not.
<aeth> A standard could be an opportunity to expose more features.
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<beach> aeth: That does not require a standard. Just a definition.
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<aeth> beach: A standard wouldn't be required for many things if there was something like Scheme's SRFI that was widely accepted. I think CL had a "CDR" system but it was mostly or entirely ignored and I think the website went down at some point.
<aeth> And in fact, new standards in Scheme mostly just adopt some really popular SRFIs
<aeth> (afaik)
<beach> Again, a standard is a very different thing from CDRs and SRFIs.
<aeth> CL has a larger base language making there less of a need for SRFIs, but that also means that there isn't a popular mechanism to handle extensions in a more formal way than portability libraries.
<aeth> s/need for SRFIs/need for things like SRFIs/
<beach> But I should shut up. This discussion upsets me, and I am obviously not expressing myself very well.
<beach> There is so much important activity we need. And how do we spend our time? Yearning for being more similar to Python.
<aeth> Yes, that's not a standard. I personally think that anyone really interested in a "new standard" should instead try to revive/replace CDRs, though. That probably gives 90% of what "new standard" proponents want, anyway.
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<aeth> I agree about important activity, though. On the list of priorities, I'd put that sort of thing very low. There are some critical incomplete/missing libraries, especially related to GUIs.
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<beach> And revising the standard would fix that?
<aeth> No, it actually goes the other way around. If there was a thriving ecosystem of applications, then a new standard would probably eventually (possibly 10+ years later) come up from all of the added activity and attention, and with all of the exposed corner cases.
<Godel[m]> Hello, is there a destructuring-bind for special variables?
<aeth> I think the main risk with the approach I suggested is if everyone just settles on one implementation to write new libraries and applications.
<beach> Godel[m]: How would it work?
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<LdBeth> Good afternoon
<beach> Hello LdBeth.
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<Godel[m]> (destructure-special (a b c d) '(1 2 3 4)) should use defvar or defparameter to create special variables a b c d
<aeth> Godel[m]: Do you mean like this? (destructuring-bind (*foo*) (list 1) (declare (special *foo*)) *foo*)
<aeth> e.g. (defvar *foo* 42) (defun foobar () (print *foo*)) (destructuring-bind (*foo*) (list 1) (declare (special *foo*)) (foobar) nil)
<aeth> not global, though
<beach> Godel[m]: No, it does not exist. You need to wait for a new revision of the Common Lisp standard for that to work.
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<ober> or port the awesomeness of lexical scoping from elisp :P
<LdBeth> I find it’s more valuable to have formal semantics rather than bring facilities to language
<Godel[m]> aeth: Yeah, but I don't want to have to declare them special myself...
<Godel[m]> Actually, I want them to be global.
<LdBeth> Göd.el: try prog
<aeth> Godel[m]: if you don't care about the global step, you can easily write a macro that inserts declarations... the global stuff, that can afaik be done but is harder
<beach> Look, the features we collectively agree are acceptable to use are determined by complex social activities, of which the publication of a standard, a CDR, or a SRFI are just a few. Others have to do with the quality of the implementation and the documentation of the feature in question, and even with the behavior of the people who proposed the feature and its implementation.
<beach> Publishing a standard is no guarantee that all the features in it will be collectively acceptable (logical pathnames are one example), and on the other hand, features can be collectively acceptable without being in a standard (Common Lisp threads is an example from Common Lisp, but languages like Java are even better examples).
<beach> The people who suggest revisions to the Common Lisp standard seem to think that there is some magic with a standard that will automatically make its contents collectively acceptable. That is not the case. In fact, it is usually the other way around. Standards are established only when some feature has shown to be collectively acceptable.
<beach> But since people happily use entire programming systems without any standard behind them, I think the fact that we already have a good standard, and several libraries that define collectively acceptable features, is already very good. Our time is better spent on libraries or applications.
<aeth> Godel[m]: Actually, you don't need declarations if you have the global, so it's either/or
<aeth> beach: Imo you should probably put that in a hyperlinkable location like an FAQ of sorts. It comes up enough.
<beach> I probably should, but it makes me tired just to think about it.
<TMA> beach: Well said.
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<aeth> Godel[m]: If you're willing to have an outer, top-level macro and an inner macro, I think it would be very doable. The outer macro would just expand into `(progn ,@the-defparameters-or-defvars ,@body) where you'd build up the globals from an inner macro... if macros are allowed to communicate.
<aeth> otherwise, you'd have to code-walk
<aeth> I'm not sure because I've never written anything this... strange.
<Godel[m]> Thanks. Let me see if I can make that work.
<aeth> so e.g. (with-possible-globals (defun foo (l) (destructuring-specials (*a* *b* *c*) l ...)))
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<beach> So, rather than a revised standard, here is what I personally think has higher priority (in no particular order):
<beach> 1. A good FFI-free GUI library. McCLIM is now already very very good, but it could use some more features to make it more acceptable to people who are used to simpler (but perhaps better-looking) GUI libraries from other languages. And it needs documentation that is adapted to people who are used to the way these other libraries are organized.
<beach> 2. A better development environment (editor, debugger, inspector). A better editor has to do more extensive analysis of the buffer contents at typing speed, and that requires a compiler (or the first few passes of one) that is fast and incremental. A better debugger would execute in a thread and make it possible to set thread-specific breakpoints in an application thread. As far as inspectors go, scymtym has recently completed a
<beach> McCLIM-based inspector that is much better than what we currently have.
<beach> 3. Libraries that will decrease the collective maintenance burden on implementers of Common Lisp systems. For example, a library that can define the syntax (and other features) of every special form and every standard macro. But there are many more examples that I won't go into.
<beach> All these things (and more) are being worked on, but we could always use more help. Unfortunately, most of these things require expertise in at least one domain (graphics rendering, algorithms and data structures, compilation, etc.) so people would have to start reading up on these things. Also, some things, like the debugger, require support from the implementation, which makes them even harder to accomplish.
<beach> Now the purpose of these priorities of mine is not mainly to make Common Lisp more attractive to people who are currently not using Common Lisp, but to make the people already using Common Lisp more productive, so that more applications and libraries can be produced with less effort.
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<ober> wow
<beach> I am convinced that more high-quality applications are required to make Common Lisp more attractive, but that is neither a main objective of mine, nor guaranteed to happen as a result of more applications.
<ober> a stuffed bird forced to fly
<beach> Er, what?
<beach> Could you elaborate on the meaning of that remark?
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<ober> the lack of movement wrt clhs
<ober> vs the motion in all the other languages.
<ober> seems like a hard sell
<beach> So I take it that none of my explanations made any sense. *sigh* Another reason to shut up.
<LdBeth> GG
<ober> no I'm hooked. just seeing the velocity of the other languages
<beach> Which is a very bad thing.
<ober> the fashionalble ones
<ober> I'm on the same page, and page size
<beach> And I think we should abandon the idea of "selling" Common Lisp, especially for the wrong reasons.
<ober> just in my experience the valley is all about redoing something poorly in something new to make a name for oneself
<beach> Why do you care about what others do?
<jackdaniel> I saw recently a graph (based on github apis) and Common Lisp activity is on a rise for a few years
<jackdaniel> let me find where did I find it
<ober> because as a programmer one never has the lack of other people on the team who have to support anything you write, or push.
<ober> it's an odd mentality to have in the name of supportability no?
<jackdaniel> fiddlerwoaroof posted it on twitter (and luis retooted it ;-)
<ober> oh and paychecks sort of depend on some collaboration
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<jackdaniel> ober: what is your claim? I think I'm lost
<beach> Me too.
<ober> "to make common lisp attractive"
<ober> to whom?
<beach> "We need to revise the Common Lisp standard annually, so that ober can keep the current employment and collaborate with the other team members"
<ober> no, you're on the wrong path there. that was merely a reply to your question on "why do you care about others?"
<beach> I see.
<jackdaniel> as far as I understand what beach said, the "whom" part is to the existing CL programmers. as of making it attractive to the "outsiders", there is some very good material on the web
<jackdaniel> most notably paip and pcl
<jackdaniel> I don't think that changing the language will buy anyone anything
<beach> Exactly.
<jackdaniel> naysayers will still label it LISP (as '60 programming language) while people who already use it will have broken code
<ober> well if it's just the existing lispers, cool.
<jackdaniel> I think you are a very selective reader
<beach> And, after having studied the psychological forces involved in what tools people use and for what reason, I have absolutely no idea how to convince anyone to use Common Lisp who doesn't want to. Certainly, revising the standard does not address any of those forces.
<ober> yeah I disabled the reader
<jackdaniel> like some of the written words were missing
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<jackdaniel> I know as a fact that aggressive evangelisation and saying: what you use is crap, use CL -- it has the opposite effect than intended
<beach> My experience in the past is that the only thing that *might* work (but there is no guarantee) is to avoid any attempt at convincing entirely, and to just show that good work can be accomplished with good productivity.
<jackdaniel> not to mention cl is in some ways crap like any language, it is not a silver bullet
<beach> jackdaniel: Absolutely!
<ober> why go to that extreme? nothing was implied to that nature
<jackdaniel> ober: I'm referring to a practice of some lisp folks which was observed in a nature
<ober> getting new blood to collaborate on new or existing projects in CL is a great idea.
<ober> I'm outside that cluster :P
<jackdaniel> which resulted in mutliple backlashes of frustrated people who failed to learn and use CL (or got offended)
<jackdaniel> beach: I know that your "absolutely" was referring to the aggressive evangelisation futile efforts, but I find it funny to see it directly below "cl is crap" ;-)
<beach> As it turns out, I partly agree. Not about the language, but about our development environment.
<jackdaniel> heh
<LdBeth> Is it still considered good to use symbol properties?
<jackdaniel> do you have a reason to believe it is bad?
<beach> I don't see this feature used very often, but I see no reason against it.
<ck_> I was thinking about putting up a picture frame, but then I remembered that my hammer technology has not been revised in decades. So I can't bring myself to use it, how can I justify it? There's amazing advances in laser cutting and so on. "Hammer" is just never updated.
<jackdaniel> label it "retro" and sell for 10x the price
<LdBeth> It’s an old system written in the fashion of CLtL1, arbitrary symbols interned could be put properties on them, which prevents the use of package to modulize
<JohnMS_WORK> Retro and Rustic!
<ck_> There you go, that's the solution for the lisp discussion as well, then. Retro Artisinal List Processing.
<LdBeth> *module them
<jackdaniel> LdBeth: if they do not fit your needs then don't use them
<aeth> ck_: You can have a digital picture frame with a Raspberry Pi.
<aeth> Well, you probably can, I don't see why you can't
<aeth> Make sure to use the Pi 4, it's the newest.
<jackdaniel> I don't think it will play nice with hammer ;)
<jackdaniel> as amusing as this chit chat is, time to get some work done, see you later \o
<ck_> Hammer wins every time.
<ck_> bye :)
<aeth> bye
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<LdBeth> Bye
<LdBeth> I find the concept of using symbol property list shown in CLHS very close to aspect oriented programming
<shka__> luckly, you also have :before and :after methods
<shka__> so you don't have to
<ck_> LdBeth: all these fancy methodologies I have pretty much only ever seen in academic programs
<LdBeth> In aspect oriented programming slots of objects can be created on the fly without prior declaration
<jackdaniel> aspect oriented programming is very similar to adding mixins to achieve some specific behavior
<jackdaniel> and stealth-mixins allow aspect-injection ;)
<jackdaniel> (used with auxiliary methods that is)
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<LdBeth> there’s also create an object without prior decl of class, called prototype
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<jil> hello
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<jackdaniel> hey
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<jil> I'm lost when it comes to quotes, I rarely use lisp and after a few months or years I forget what I read in the doc. Today, it has taken me already some times (~ an hour) to revisite my note to find how to pop a string from a list. I'm using emacs lisp and tried (position "foo" '("foo" 1 2)) to unsucessfuly get the position while (position 'a '(1 2 a)) will rock. What is it that I can keep in mind to make tha work ?
<flip214> jil: EQ vs. EQL vs. EQUAL vs. EQUALP vs. STRING= etc.
<flip214> POSITION by default uses EQL, but you need EQUAL or STRING= here.
<beach> jil: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so you may not get the right answers.
<flip214> what other programming languages do you use? Perhaps we can find a connect.
<jil> tody Python on a daily basis but I use to be not so bad in lisp like 20 years ago.
<beach> jil: In Common Lisp, you pass a keyword argument :TEST to POSITION if you want a test other than the default one.
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<jil> hum.. let me ask the emacs guys because I'm not using Common lisp.
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<jil> (position "foo" '("foo" "b") :test 'string=) is ok
<jil> thank you
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<pjb> jil: so what's your question about quote?
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<jil> pjb this is what I was aiming for https://dpaste.de/dgzx
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<beach> jil: If you are using Emacs, you should take advantage of its Lisp editing capability to indent your code properly.
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<jil> beach I did but the pasting it removed it. do you have a paste website that preserve lisp indentation ?
<beach> I don't use one very often. You are better off asking someone else.
<pjb> jil: you can use flet or labels instead of binding functions to variables and using funcall.
<p_l> hpaste and github gists work well enough
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<pjb> jil: or you can use remove* (or remove-if*): https://dpaste.de/KSks
<pjb> jil: select Plain Code instead of Plain Text to keep the indentation.
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<johnp> I am trying to learn Common Lisp by building (of all things) a scheme interpreter (I know scheme pretty well from reading HTDP and SICP). What's confusing me right now is comparing symbols. I made myself a package for my interpreter that I'm loading in the REPL and in unit tests. The problem is that the 'define symbol (or any syntax symbol I look for) gets interned inside my scheme package, so comparing the symbol 'define inside the
<johnp> eval procedure is not equal to a symbol given to it in the reader (e.g. typing (schemeval '(define (f x) (* x x)) environment) doesn't work because 'define is not equal). Is the best practice for this situation to use string=?. Seems to be the only option but it seems awkward and certainly very different from scheme.
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<Bike> johnp: just make sure you do your reading in your interpreter package.
<Bike> don't use string=. they are symbols.
<Bike> If you're in a repl you can do (in-package #:scheme-eval) or whatever your package is called, and then subsequent lines will be read in that package.
<Bike> clhs *package*
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<pjb> johnp: so, the trick is that READ calls INTERN with the value bound to *PACKAGE* as second argument.
<pjb> johnp: *package* is the current package, at read-time. When the compiler calls READ at compilation time, it's the current *package* at compilation-time, which normally has been set by a previously read and evaluated (in-package …) form in the same file. When you call READ at run-time, it's the current *package* at run-time. eg. the current *package* in the REPL, unless you explicitely rebind *package* in your program.
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<pjb> johnp: what you want, is that when we read "define", you get actually the symbol your-scheme-implementation:define. For this, you must ensure that this your-scheme-implementation:define symbol be present in the current *package* at run-time, when you call READ.
<pjb> so that (intern "DEFINE" *package*) will actually find this symbol YOUR-SCHEME-IMPLEMENTATION:DEFINE in the package bound to *PACKAGE*.
<pjb> johnp: You can do that by _using_ the package YOUR-SCHEME-IMPLEMENTATION in the current run-time *package*.
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<pjb> johnp: so you should have something like: https://pastebin.com/t3jinwyU
<pjb> johnp: perhaps RUN is not a scheme function, (it's a CL function implementing your scheme); then you could split "YOUR-SCHEME-IMPLEMENTATION" package into two packages, one for the scheme symbols, and one for the implementation, and both the implementation and the user package would use the scheme package.
<pjb> johnp: notice that there's the pseudo-scheme implementation (r4rs); you may want to have a look at it.
<johnp> pjb: Okay. So in a nutshell just make sure I'm in the same package that I'm doing eql comparisons with when I read?
<johnp> Or otherwise send in the input.
<pjb> johnp: you can use this simplification, but in general you would want to avoid reading at run-time in an implementation package, since that would intern all the user symbols in this package.
<pjb> johnp: if you use a user package, you can delete it and recreate it to start from scratch, and garbage collect the user symbols previously interned.
<pjb> Then in addition to binding *package* you will also want to bind *readtable* with a readtable configured by specific reader macros to read scheme code.
<johnp> Oh I see.
<pjb> and a few other variables in the *print-…* and *read-…* lists…
<pjb> So your function RUN would look more like: https://pastebin.com/4ATcHmWi
<pjb> where you would have wrapped encapsulated all those details in the with-scheme-syntax macro.
<johnp> Well maybe not. So you bind *package* to the user package at run time. And when you call (read) it reads the global *package* variable which is still set to my custom evaluator.
<pjb> johnp: The problem is that you wrote "doing eql comparsions". This is meaningless.
<pjb> johnp: EQL doesn't work with packages.
<johnp> eql on symbols.
<pjb> Yes, it works on symbols. Symbols have identity.
<pjb> So you write the call to eql in a function that is read in a given package, so if you use some literal unqualified symbol to refer so specific symbol, it will have to be present in the package used at compilation-time to read this code (the quote form).
<johnp> If I'm not in the same package (scheme-interpreter:schemeval '(define (f x) (* x x)) env) doesn't work because if I ask if the expression is a define with (eql (car expr) 'define) returns false.
<johnp> In that example I was in the CL-USER package.
<pjb> But that call to eql is executed at run-time with possibly a different current package. If you just use the same package as used at compilation-time, it means this your-scheme-implementation package, and the other user symbols will be interned in it. (and the user will also have access to your other implementation symbols).
<pjb> He will be able to refer to implementation internals…
<pjb> johnp: notice how you are in the CL-USER = COMMON-LISP-USER package!
<pjb> Why are you entereing SCHEME code in the COMMON-LISP-user package?
<pjb> (in-package "SCHEME-USER") in the REPL, and then you'll be ok.
<pjb> (if you define this package as wanted).
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<johnp> Mostly trying to write unit tests.
<pjb> Don't write scheme code in the common-lisp-user package.
<johnp> The unit test package I was using required me to be in it's own package, not sure why. Or it seemed that way.
<johnp> So although I wasn't in common-lisp-user I was still not in the scheme-user package.
<johnp> s/scheme-user/scheme-interpreter/
<pjb> Otherwise, you can either: (scheme-interpreter:schemeval (with-scheme-syntax (read-from-string "(define (f x) (* x x))")) env)
<pjb> or type: (scheme-interpreter:schemeval '(scheme:define (scheme-user::f scheme-user::x) (scheme:* scheme-user::x scheme-user::x)) env)
<pjb> (having defined the needed packages).
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<pjb> You can also define a CL reader macro, perhaps #\{, so instead of writing (scheme-interpreter:schemeval (with-scheme-syntax (read-from-string "(define (f x) (* x x))")) env) you can write (scheme-interpreter:schemeval { (define (f x) (* x x)) } env)
<pjb> This could be handy if you have a lot of test cases…
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<johnp> Okay thanks. I should be able to get it working now. Doing a simple in-package works, thanks for the explanation about *package* and symbols.
<johnp> I didn't know about reader macros.
<pjb> Do you aim at r7rs?
<johnp> No. I want to have a basic Scheme that can do SICP. I was then going to see about adding my own package system and non-hygenic macros.
<pjb> Oh, there's a scheme88…
<pjb> sicp is r4rs. pseudo-scheme should do mostly.
<pjb> Also, somebody did all the exercises in sicp in Common Lisp; he had a nice blog about it, but it disappeared. Might be in archive.org…
<johnp> That would definitely be neat to look at.
<pjb> Oh, it seems the link is still alive. (at the bottom)
<johnp> Okay I've actually been to that website before, but I was looking at answers in scheme.
<pjb> Somebody did it in C++…
<shka_> it is possible but time consuming
<shka_> translation to CL is actually fairly simple
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<johnp> lol C++
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<shka_> johnp: possible, just requires sick amounts of time
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<iarebatman1> Can anyone lend a quick hand with spacemacs? I'm trying to use evil-cleverparens with my CL files..
<iarebatman1> It works when I manually toggle evil-cleverparens-mode while in a *.lisp file, but I cannot get it to auto-enable when I open the file for whatever reason..
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<iarebatman1> I've added (add-hook 'common-lisp-mode-hook
<iarebatman1> #'evil-cleverparens-mode) to my dotspacemacs/user-config function, but it doesn't seem to matter
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<ober> (add-hook 'lisp-mode "evil-cleverparens-mode")
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<iarebatman1> Will I have to restart emacs for that to take effect, or will doing a sync configuration work?
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<ober> not if you just eval it
<ober> move your cursor to the end of it and C-x C-x
<ober> C-x C-e
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<iarebatman1> thanks ober, that worked.
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<Oladon_work> Off-topic, but I'm hiring engineers (US) and would love to hire people with Lisp backgrounds to code Lispy JS. PM for more details.
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<vms14> how can I override a symbol that's bound in :cl?
<vms14> I want to create the + function and so on for my package but I don't want to override the cl one
<vms14> my goal is that you just type (in-package my-package) and all those functions will render to js
<vms14> atm I have this
<vms14> (defun plus (&rest args)
<vms14> (let ((sum (make-text-buffer)))
<vms14> (format sum "~{~a ~^+ ~} " args)
<vms14> sum))
<vms14> but I'd like to have it as + function because my goal is to translate common-lisp functions to js ones
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<azrazalea> vms14: I'm jumping in for a bit after not doing any programming for awhile but what you are looking for is "shadowing"
<aeth> I think that's what shadow is for.
<pjb> vms14: (shadow '+)
<aeth> vms14: (defpackage :foo (:use #:cl) (:shadow #:+)) (in-package #:foo)
<pjb> or that.
<aeth> vms14: And now foo has all of CL except for +
<aeth> vms14: and you can manually cl:+ if you need it in your definition of +
<vms14> lol tnx
<vms14> aeth: that's what I wanted, access the + function trough cl:+
<vms14> thanks to all and sorry for such a noob question, cause I knew about shadow
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<aeth> vms14: And on top of that, what I've done before to avoid messing with too many packages is have a macro that locally chooses which + etc to use by leaving + undefined outside of that macro, which I think could be as simple as (inlined) flet or macrolet. It's been a while, though. The downside is it might kill optimizations, and you might have to restrict yourself to keeping it fixed-length instead of arbitrary-length
<aeth> It can get very elaborate
<vms14> I was thinking in make a macro
<vms14> what I want is to mix html css and js in one language
<vms14> and have something like
<vms14> (title "this is the title" :color 'red)
<aeth> Well, for that you don't need CL functions at all. You can just sort of... write an interpreter of sorts, where you dispatch based on the CAR of a list and go through recursively.
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<vms14> this should be converted to one h1 and maybe the title of the head tags
<aeth> (And if you use functions then the name doesn't have to match the car)
<vms14> aeth: that was my first approach
<vms14> and made a function which translates input to a list
<aeth> What made you abandon that approach?
<vms14> nothing really
<vms14> I was thinking in something more direct
<aeth> The problem with a direct approach is if you want to make it print as a human would, unminified and with indentation at the proper levels. It's not impossible in CL because you can just use dynamic, global variables for that, though.
<aeth> You're still going to want to have it write to a stream instead of literally being direct because otherwise you're concatenating quite a few strings that you're consing up
<vms14> yeah, and I'm so noob to do such a thing anyway xD
<vms14> I'll try with what I've started
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<aeth> For example, (+ 1 (* 3 5) 7) to "1 + (3 * 5) + 7" means that you're going to have to track several things. e.g. the indentation level if you have to break into a newline (you probably don't here). You're also going to naively do something like "~A + ~A + ~A" where 1 is to-string, (* 3 5) is to-string, and 7 is to-string. This will generate quite a few strings.
<aeth> But if you use a stream, you can just make sure the order of evaluation is correct (which I guess is mainly just not using threads?).
<aeth> With streams, it will write "1 + (" and then go into the subroutine, write "3 * 5", and then go back out to the main function and write ") + 7"
<aeth> I guess if you want to do it strictly with functions you can have it write to *standard-output* and just rebind that if you want it e.g. as a string
<aeth> For my approach for this sort of thing, I have a stream as the last argument, though.
<aeth> I hope I was clear. I didn't have anywhere near enough coffee today.
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<vms14> aeth: right
<vms14> that's also why I love that format writes to char arrays
<vms14> (make-array 0 :element-type 'character :adjustable t :fill-pointer t )
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<aeth> I think we had this conversation a while ago (or at least someone did). I still prefer streams here for their simplicity, just using with-output-to-string. This means that FORMAT has (at least) 3 different ways to write a string, though.
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