jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.5.4, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<vms14> aeth: sorry I was afk
<vms14> sure it was me who mentioned about format and char arrays
<vms14> I just love the fact you can have multiple buffers and the power of format in them
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<kilimanjaro> what's the consensus on catch/throw
<kilimanjaro> i want to have a non-local exit for a procedure and i'd just normally use `return-from` but i'd like to break things up into a few subroutines for readability
<kilimanjaro> a few distinct top level defuns, i mean.
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<aeth> I haven't seen that used before, but I'm not sure why.
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<jeosol> Good morning
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<jeosol> In my bid to improve code design for clarity, maintainability, and extension, I try to think of better design so subsequently added codes are progressively better. That being said, I have some CLOS design question I'll like to discuss here.
<jeosol> I'll use a simple analogy so as to focus on the main design issues.
<jeosol> Let's say I want to write a program to optimize a car and I can optimize some aspects of the car, e.g., the type (sedan, SUV, ...), tire size (e.g., 20-inch, 22-inch, etc), number of seats (2,4,6), etc. The options (combinations) can be large but countable.
<White_Flame> "subsequently added code" is always a problem
<jeosol> So I want to design a CLOS class with goals stated earlier. I can construct one massive class (defclass optimize-car-type-tire-seat () ...) and have a bunch of slots
<jeosol> but I will prefer to have it broken down into small units (classes) with the inheritance. So a user may say they want a sedan (for type), 20-inch tire size, but not sure about the seat. I can then create the instantiate the correct object where only the number of seats will be a variable
<White_Flame> I don't think that is a good fit for inheritance
<jeosol> and then the optimal condition is determined from the optimization. I apologize if this is not clear, but
<White_Flame> you have a bag of information about a car, some specified, maybe some not
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<White_Flame> and you have a list of information that needs to be completed in order to consider the car complete
<jeosol> This is not the exact problem per say, but hoping it will fit.
<White_Flame> what sort of optimization strategy are you looking at?
<jeosol> oh ok. it is a simple optimization problem, i imagine the car analogy was poor, if let's say, the tire was the variable in the above case. We then optimize for the tire size of thread based on the performance of the car in a given environment
<White_Flame> optimize how? hill climbing? genetic algorithm? depth-first exhaustive search?
<jeosol> oh, ok. Ii see you want detail. It's stochastic optimization, GA, PS, etc. The actual technique is not the problem, but the idea is to be able to gather as much information and automatically determine what to optimize based on what the user has selected
<White_Flame> well, the data representation might be more useful depending on how the optimization is
<White_Flame> if you know that you have a fixed set of slots, then I would allow NIL in each to simply indicate whether it "has a value" or not, to the code
<White_Flame> as a simple class (or even struct)
<White_Flame> the annoying thing is that you have to check all pertinent slots for non-NILness to see if you've found enough stuff
<White_Flame> however, if you have temporary values in those slots that you're searching through, then you might want a separate state indicator for each slot
<White_Flame> and that sort of thing does get kind of annoying with forcing everything OO, and you might want more simple data structures
<jeosol> I just pulled out my Sonja Keene book, and the closest example is the make-stream example (defun make-stream (device-type direction element-type name) ...) and there is a function (select-stream-class direction element-type device-type) which essentially determines the right stream class to create and creates the correct instance
<White_Flame> is that an optimization problem though?
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<jeosol> I agree with your comments White_Flame. I have a case that works but the derived cases (possible options) are becoming large to manage. The whole setup runs, but I am thinking may be the one large class, with appropriate slots and if something is nil, then it's not to be optimized. This option seems more manageable
<jeosol> No it's not, I am trying to abstract the problem such that I can create the right class, and default the other parameters (based on other inputs the user will also specify).
<White_Flame> is the search state inherently part of the class's data?
<White_Flame> I would think that would reside in whatever the optimization loop is, and the instance simply being the current data point for testing fitness
<jeosol> So, class provides contains the settings for initializing the variables for optimization. So in the example I had above, you can have a case with multiple different car scenarios (optimizing car type, car size, ...) in the same optimization run
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<jeosol> With the single, massive class, you will have to process the results to figure out which type/scenario it was, but if I had the right classes to start with, I can tell from the class, and that can be used for subsequent step or optimization.
<White_Flame> again, this doesn't sound like classes & inheritance should be the goal here
<jeosol> really?
<White_Flame> you have a list of key/value pairs, and each has some initialization state, some range of values to search over (presumably), and the entire set should be able to be tested & manipulated regardless of what the overall set of slots are
<White_Flame> that sound like a bag, not a structure
<White_Flame> *sounds
<White_Flame> if you want to change the number of slots, that would be a pretty heavyweight change with classes, and scanning the slots
<jeosol> hmm, guess, I am not explaining things clearly. The operations performed on the object during the optimization depends on the class, that's why I go that route. I define some defmethods on base classes.
<White_Flame> that still sounds like a bag of CLOS objects, each representing a searchable value with its own definitions
<White_Flame> but yeah, I don't know enough about the problem
<jeosol> Yes, your option is having one defclass class and just search the slots
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<White_Flame> there's a term I use for Java programming style. I call it "Object Obsessed" ;)
<jeosol> I agree with that, my point was for one of flexibility in code design. I have a few cases with inheritance for other problems with 2 or 3 levels/options. But here it is may be too much because of the number of options
<jeosol> White_Flame, I am not actually, CLOS does fit the other aspects of the code I was writing very well (:before, :around, :after methods), I don't use it everywhere though.
<jeosol> Anyway, I appreciate your time and suggestions.
<jeosol> That's the repo for the application I am working on. It's a fairly large code base and careful code design was important to be able to manage it so far
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<White_Flame> sure, but it's impossible to avoid technical debt
<White_Flame> sometimes it is more flexible and forward-compatible to use the dynamic properties of the language
<White_Flame> I mean, it does need to dispatch on each individual adjustable value, that's well suited to defmethod on the class of the value
<nullnullnull> in SBCL: how to get args and save them into integer variable?
<White_Flame> but it sounds like your main question is how to aggregate those adjustable values together, and that's where a looser dynamic data structure would work
<White_Flame> nullnullnull: commandline args?
<jeosol> Yes, White_Flame. I am just shooting for better design. May a general class and just deal with the issues of scanning the slots.
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<White_Flame> nullnullnull: and then http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_parse_.htm
<White_Flame> jeosol: my strong preference would be a simple list/array/hashtable
<White_Flame> however, there might be optimization benefits to using a class, depending on if you're CPU-bound
<jeosol> hmm, but managing the additional functions for those cases will be harder to manage? you don't think.
<White_Flame> well, it depends on where the work is focused. If the fitness function is massive, then you should optimize access of the values
<nullnullnull> White_Flame, yes mate
<White_Flame> if the mutation is the more complex part, then treating the aggregate as a simple collection makes it much easier to walk through your values to adjust
<jeosol> the function evals are expensive, but the design considerations is one of ease to be able to change optimizations, or run optimization with one setting, and use conditions from one class into another seamlessly. The choice is also to simplify the search process
<nullnullnull> White_Flame, thanks :) I will check
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<White_Flame> you also might be better served in creating a small DSL for this, to allow you both to represent all the bits easier, as well as be able to output precise code that runs dedicated to each value
<White_Flame> it sounds like you're working with templates and option sets
<White_Flame> but trying to inherit them instead of referring to them
<White_Flame> a DSL can unpack & combine all that for you
<jeosol> That's true. I asked something related and similar to this, and Dim Fontaine (?) suggested a DSL and writing some reader to take in simplify input and map accordingly.
<White_Flame> yep
<jeosol> The issue is managing the many options and combinations, and also take advantage of some operations created for the base classes.
<jeosol> Another analogy for the use case is: one needs to draw an arbitrary line in space by specify two points, (x1,y1,z1) and (x2,y2,z2) and there are constraints on the line length, (e.g., length within some interval) and location in space to maximize a resource.
<nullnullnull> btw why sbcl --eval is not working like --load? (if i put the whole script into --eval it will not load the "require" packages)
<jeosol> One can start the search by assuming the lines are vertical so only 4 variables (x1,y1,z1,z2) with (x2=x1, and y2=y1) to fine the best part of the environments and then later relax the constraint. The latter case, the optimization for the first search has 4 variables, in the latter we could relax constraints on z1, and z2 and perform another search
<jeosol> now with 2 variables
<jeosol> with the others fixed or allowed to vary over small spaces. This is not guaranteed to get the global optimum, but not get quick solution.
<jeosol> In both case, by calling a function (run-optimizer object), it will automatically perform the correct search based on what can be optimized.
<jeosol> *cases
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<jeosol> White_Flame Do you have some library or resource you recommend for the example DSL you mentioned above?
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<White_Flame> write one, that's the strength of Lisp :)
<White_Flame> frameworks often make complex mountains out of small custom molehills
<White_Flame> _especially_ when it is customization that is sought
<jeosol> ok doki. I didn't mean the exact thing I wanted, but something like a tutorial, an example, etc.
<jeosol> but your point is taken. Will do. I hope I can get something clean and easily maintainable towards my goal of automated systems.
<White_Flame> across the many DSLs and data-driven systems I've written, the reason they were written was to solve a very specific representation problem with the exact problem at hand
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<White_Flame> but you start with "How would I ideally wish to represent this?", write down some pseudocode/data/declarations, then write Lisp to transform/execute those
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<jeosol> Yeah, thanks. I googled and found a nice DSL example with CL
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
<LdBeth> Morning, beach
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<jeosol> Good morning beach
<jeosol> I am looking to get a physical copy of Cltl2
<edgar-rft> you can make a copy on an USB stick if that's physical enough
<jeosol> haha. Edgar. By physical I meant book. I check on Amazon, I saw 600 box for a hard cover one time, but later saw some for around $70-$90 box
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<edgar-rft> jeosol: I printed one myself from the DVI version available at https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/cltl2.html
<jeosol> Thanks. I guess that's another option.
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<edgar-rft> jeosol: here in europe there are also lots of online book stores selling old books from libraries. If you'e lucky you can get a copy for a few bucks.
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<jeosol> edgar-rft, that is the option I was hoping for - a used copy
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<edgar-rft> jeosol: I just looked at ebay and instantly found three copies below 10 bucks fom the USA, shipping costs more expensive than the book itself
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<jeosol> ok. saw the listings. These ones are cheaper
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<LdBeth> edgar-rft: there’s one line footnote exceeding the page boundary in the DVI version available
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<varjag> is there anything like (ccl:current-time-in-nanoseconds) in lispworks?
<varjag> any way to access platform's precision timer
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<dlowe> local-time calls gettimeofday using lispworks' ffi
<dlowe> doesn't work for windows, though
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<varjag> i see, thanks
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<nullnullnull> why sbcl --eval is not working like --load? (if i put the whole script into --eval it will not load the "require" packages)
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<manualcrank> hey guys, according to CLHS for SORT, "The sorting operation can be destructive in all cases."
<manualcrank> translation: in all cases, maybe. wtf?
<manualcrank> when is it destructive and when isn't it?
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<manualcrank> i spent all day trying to figure out why some code wasn't working
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<manualcrank> turns out (loop for list across array-of-lists do (sort list #'<)) was dropping list elements
<p_l> manualcrank: assume it's destructiv
<manualcrank> but if it were destructive then that loop would work, instead i have to do something like
<manualcrank> (dotimes (i (length array-of-lists))
<manualcrank> (setf (aref array-of-lists i) (sort (aref array-of-lists i) #'<)))
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<manualcrank> i don't know, maybe i don't understand what destructive implies
<manualcrank> seems to imply the argument may be modified in order to return a correct result
<manualcrank> but not that the argument will be modified into the correct result
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<manualcrank> for example,
<manualcrank> (let ((lst (list 3 2 1)))
<manualcrank> (let ((srt (sort lst #'<)))
<manualcrank> (eq lst srt)))
<Bike> manualcrank: "destructive" doesn't mean the argument is changed to be sorted, it means the argument is changed
<manualcrank> returns T
<Bike> manualcrank: you still need to use the value returned by sort.
<manualcrank> but (let ((lst (list 9 3 8 2 1)))
<manualcrank> (let ((srt (sort lst #'<)))
<manualcrank> (eq lst srt)))
<manualcrank> returns NIL
<Bike> it's not defined.
<Bike> lst is "destroyed". you can't use it any more.
<manualcrank> Bike: yes
<Bike> as for "can be destructive in all cases", that means an implementation can decide when it's destructive.
<manualcrank> i guess i was used to sort's behavior with arrays of fixnums, which always did the expected thing
<Bike> two different implementations can differ on when it's destructive.
<Bike> you can't rely on that either.
<Bike> use the return value. the argument is destroyed. don't use it any more, even if it looks right on your particular implementation.
<manualcrank> TIL
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<manualcrank> sbcl returns a style warning about discarding the return value of NREVERSE
<Bike> yeah, same thing.
<manualcrank> it doesn't do that for SORT though, i really thought SORT worked like in C
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<Bike> C doesn't have linked lists or non simple arrays
<pjb> (map-into array-of-lists (lambda (list) (sort list (function <))) array-of-lists)
<no-defun-allowed> well, if you give SORT some conses, it'll adjust the CDRs to taste and it's more than possible whatever cons was first before SORTing could be in the middle
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<no-defun-allowed> and conses aren't passed by "reference" in a way like arrays are, if you move conses around, there's no telling which is first
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<manualcrank> yes, in retrospect sort's behavior makes sense
<aeth> A cons in C terms is (probably, no guarantees) basically just a container of two pointers (actually, more like the union of pointers and the types small enough to fit in the word size with the type tag included). And a list is just something that starts with that or NIL. And a proper list is a list whose final CDR is NIL.
<aeth> So with a destructive sort, your list reference could now be pointing to the middle since there is no outer container, just cons-or-NIL.
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<manualcrank> omg i have 226 files with sort used incorrectly lol
<manualcrank> (all with arrays tho)
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