jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.5.4, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
<aeth> drmeister: Using this or something not in QL? https://github.com/yitzchak/common-lisp-jupyter
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<no-defun-allowed> What variable changes where CFFI looks for libraries?
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<learning> do you guys use recursion in other languages?
<learning> it's honestly my goto tool right now
<learning> javascript's flatten function not supported by all browsers? fuck it, i'll roll my own in ~10 lines
<aeth> My goto tool in Common Lisp is tagbody, but I rarely need to use gotos.
<learning> kek
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<drmeister> aeth: We were using cl-jupyter before anyone else - we made customizations to get it to work with our implementation of jupyter widgets
<pjb> learning: of course.
<learning> ok cool. im just making sure i'm not doing something super weird
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<DrDuck> can 'lisp in small pieces' be worked through with common lisp?
<LdBeth> You can work it with any sane programming language
<LdBeth> Probably some insane one if you have strong heart
<DrDuck> is that speaking from experience with the book, LdBeth?
<DrDuck> all the code is lisp specific and uses lisp specific syntax
<DrDuck> well scheme it looks like
<DrDuck> i dont think memq exists in common lisp for example
<DrDuck> and they define functions with "define"
<LdBeth> DrDuck: memq is member with :test 'eq
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<LdBeth> Actually some CL implementation such as Allegro CL or Clozure CL provides memq as extra function
<LdBeth> If a name looks obscure you may find it’s definition from MacLisp or LISP1.5
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<DrDuck> before i get back to studying, why has nobody implemented fully featured macros in common lisp?
<DrDuck> is it not possible?
<Bike> what's a fully featured macro?
<DrDuck> sorry
<DrDuck> i mean fully featured continuations
<DrDuck> in common lisp
<DrDuck> like what scheme provides
<Bike> they're hard to implement and you don't use them very often.
<LdBeth> After all the book is about implementing a lisp, which should be feasible on many programming language
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<Bike> Sorry, I mean they're hard to implement without making the entire language inefficient.
<Bike> Easy to implement badly.
<DrDuck> without making the entire language inefficient?
<DrDuck> can you elaborate a tad bit
<Bike> Also because Common Lisp is basically a mix of a bunch of preexisting languages, none of which had continuations.
<Bike> let me link you a survey paper
<DrDuck> ok
<DrDuck> it's just this propagator stuff absolutely requires amb
<Bike> okay, so did you try screamer?
<DrDuck> not yet
<Bike> but you're still focused on continuations?
<DrDuck> well amb yes
<LdBeth> A subset of continuation can be implemented without sacrificing efficiency
<Bike> No, continuations. You are asking about continuations, not amb.
<Bike> You got an answer for amb but haven't done anything with it.
<aeth> drmeister: thanks!
<Bike> LdBeth: sure. lisp has escape continuations, even
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<Bike> continuations are pretty intrinsic to the entire evaluation semantics. You can't just add them on after the fact.
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<aeth> DrDuck: As far as continuations go, you basically spend a ton of work implementing them in an otherwise simple implementation process... and then you spend work essentially removing them where they're not actually necessary, for added performance.
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<Bike> i mean, it doesn't have to be catastrophic. but it's not easy
<LdBeth> Unless you’d expect something like write a interpreter then get a good quality compiler from it
<Bike> and you can do a "zero cost" thing in that it only takes extra time when you use the continuation functions
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<DrDuck> is amb a small subset of continuations?
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<DrDuck> also i don't see the keyword amb in screamer code at all, and it looks to be just for constraint solving
<DrDuck> i am a bit confused
<LdBeth> It’s control flow, so it’s sort close to continuation
<Bike> I don't think you understand what amb is.
<Bike> So I'd rectify that first off.
<DrDuck> i thought amb would take a piece of code for evaluation for later
<Bike> You don't understand amb.
<Bike> You should read SICP. It's good.
<LdBeth> But it’s not necessarily continuation
<Bike> and free online.
<LdBeth> “Free online books”
<DrDuck> :(
<Bike> It's fine to not understand things. That's the first step to understanding them, after all
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<LdBeth> I think a good way to learn about a thing is write it once, even when you think you already know how to write it
<stylewarning> Has anybody written some kind of memory/object pool that tracks allocation sizes?
<LdBeth> stylewarning: it’s that for garage collection?
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<stylewarning> LdBeth: No, to avoid allocating many object MB in size
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<bmansurov> aeth: ok, thanks
<bmansurov> o/ everyone. How can I pass clauses to restart-case from a list? Here's what I'm trying to do:
<bmansurov> (defun my-restarter ()
<bmansurov> (let ((list '(1 2 3)))
<bmansurov> (restart-case (error "some error")
<bmansurov> (skip () nil)
<bmansurov> ;; Here I want to list options from list
<bmansurov> ;; (option-1 () (car list))
<bmansurov> ;; (option-2 () (cadr list))
<bmansurov> ;; etc. for all list elements
<bmansurov> )))
<no-defun-allowed> in a pastebin preferably
<bmansurov> my bad, here you go: https://pastebin.com/hm9QvbHC
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<beach> bmansurov: I think you would need some trickery for that, like nesting the restart-case forms.
<beach> bmansurov: Also, where do the option-i symbols come from?
<bmansurov> beach: I see. option-i is just name, similar to skip.
<beach> Yes, but since the list has a variable number of elements, there must also be a variable number of options I suppose.
<beach> So how do you know the names of those options?>
<bmansurov> beach: I don't. I want to generate them on the fly as well.
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<beach> That will be tricky since they are not evaluated by restart-case.
<bmansurov> beach: OK, thanks
<beach> You would have to do all this at compile time, rather than at run time, meaning you need to do it with macros.
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<bmansurov> I see.
<beach> ... which would seem reasonable anyway, because the code that invokes the restarts would have to know their names.
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<beach> What is the purpose of this code anyway?
<beach> Are you sure you need such a complex mechanism?
<beach> Perhaps something simpler like catch/throw will do?
<bmansurov> beach: I am parsing a list of words and checking whether each word is in the dictionary. If not, I'm calculating the most similar words from the dictionary and want the user to select one.
<beach> I see.
<bmansurov> beach: would the code be simpler if I restricted the list of suggestions to at most 3?
<beach> Yes, then you can enumerate all cases.
<bmansurov> beach: something like (use-value (value) value)?
<beach> Sorry, I need to go. I'll be back in a few hours.
<bmansurov> beach: ok thanks
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<DrDuck> why does my interpreter error out when using symbol-value on a function i defined
<DrDuck> (defun foo (x) (+ x 2))
<DrDuck> (symbol-value 'foo)
<DrDuck> errors and goes to debugger in slime
<no-defun-allowed> (symbol-function 'foo)
<no-defun-allowed> In Common Lisp (and Lisps preceding it), functions and variables have seperate namespaces.
<DrDuck> agg
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<no-defun-allowed> I can't think of any languages that do that other than CL, but it has some uses, like (defun foo (list) (list (mapcar #'single-foo list)))
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<DrDuck> or something like that
<DrDuck> parenedit?
<DrDuck> ahh what was the other plugin i need with slime
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<DrDuck> parenmatch?
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<no-defun-allowed> paredit?
<DrDuck> yeah
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<Nistur> greetings lispers :)
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<stylewarning> Hello hello
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<no-defun-allowed> How do you do, fellow lispers?
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<beach> Nistur: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
<Nistur> I am :)
<beach> Great! What brings you to #lisp?
<Nistur> beach: give me a second, I'm actually writing a reddit post about this right now, so rather than me type it twice, I'll just link it, if that's ok :P
<beach> Fine with me.
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<ck_> that just says [removed]. What happened?
<no-defun-allowed> Typo perhaps?
<beach> Yeah, I only see the title.
<no-defun-allowed> Probably not, cause you can edit on reddit.
<Nistur> wat.
<Nistur> shows on mine. Does it have to be moderated?
<no-defun-allowed> Maybe it hasn't cleared the spam filter.
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<ck_> what does it filter for? URLs?
<no-defun-allowed> Could you put it on txti.es? The formatting should carry over.
<no-defun-allowed> Can't tell, Reddit is proprietary now, and their anti-spam stuff has been secret for a very long time.
<stylewarning> Nistur: Huh. It’s tough to give advice with this one.
<beach> Nistur: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp. But there is also a channel specifically for Lisp game development.
<beach> #lispgames maybe?
<ck_> Yeah I got as far as "Clojure inspired Lisp interpreter" before blinking
<no-defun-allowed> Looking at the bullet points: - CCL and SBCL go straight to machine code, ECL to C and Clasp to LLVM IR, - Haven't used any game toolchains before, but if it's all C then I don't C why CFFI wouldn't work. - Common Lisp is Common Lisp regardless of implementation, and I think the size of it is often overstated - CFFI, as forementioned, does C interfacing - SWANK is good, but I imagine you'll get in hot water trying to
<no-defun-allowed> publish a game with it nearby.
<no-defun-allowed> ck_: MAL is a hell of a drug.
<stylewarning> Nistur: it seems you simultaneously want to learn something about Lisp, while making some kind of Lisp, while making some kind of GOAL-like game engine. Is that right?
<no-defun-allowed> Seriously though, I can't reccomend any free Lisp-interpreter-writing resources other than SICP since they jump around too much and have too many false premises.
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<no-defun-allowed> Probably because that book describes the semantics of the target language before it is implemented, so the authors have no excuse to, say, start with "well, if you have a list, then evaluate the arguments, then if the function is +, add them together, if it is *, take the product, ....." then go "actually, we'll use an alist/hash-table/something to make an assosciation between symbols and primops", then they finally
<no-defun-allowed> spit out a reasonable environment model and the reader has had to wade through two bad ones, wasting time.
<no-defun-allowed> Seems to happen a lot, and it drives me mad, but the target language is never CL (and rarely is the implementation language CL), so I'll shut it.
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<no-defun-allowed> Though, perhaps the problem there is they try to teach (some absurd mutation of) Lisp and how to write an interpreter or compiler for it at the same time.
<beach> no-defun-allowed: Did you really mean SICP?
<no-defun-allowed> beach: Yes, I meant SICP.
<no-defun-allowed> The semantics of the language are described in chapters 1 through 3, then chapter 4 presents an interpreter and chapter 5 presents a compiler.
<beach> I see.
<beach> I read the book a long time ago, and I forgot its structure.
<stylewarning> did you at least remember its interpretation?
* beach sees it on the shelf behind next to him.
<no-defun-allowed> Those first three chapters do have those false starts/simplifications, but I think it is excusable because they are not being made while the reader should be writing a compiler or interpreter instead.
<beach> s/behind//
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<Nistur> beach: I've joined #lispgames too :P But I'm considering CL as an option still (I mentioned it later) so I thought I'd join here
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<ck_> stylewarning: maybe if he applies himself more .. or evaluates the statement?
<stylewarning> something something conjuring spirits
<beach> stylewarning: :)
<ck_> .oO( "do you have a robe and wizard hat?" )
* no-defun-allowed pulls out her 80s toy keyboard and starts playing Jesu, Joy Of Man's Desiring
* ck_ points at the notes using a light-pen-controlled giant arrow.
<beach> Nistur: It looks like stylewarning is telling you that you may be in for some adventure if you are trying to do all those things at once.
<Nistur> stylewarning: I "know" lisp, as I've been using it for a while, but I am not comfortable using it, and I find it difficult to think in lisp, so it's more that I want to use it to do something substantial. I don't want to make a lisp specifically, but I _do_ want to make some kind of GOAL like thing, and I'm thinking, given how everything is very C-oriented in gamedev, having something I can more easily hack
<Nistur> around in, and potentially write from scratch, would make negotiating console toolchains easier
<Nistur> beach: I'm good with adventure :D
<no-defun-allowed> Though, I'm not sure how different console OSes are to general purpose computer OSes, so it is possible you would also have to work with porting the Lisp system in mind.
<stylewarning> There’s adventure and then there’s Adventure (TM) with all the bugs, gnats, upset digestive system, itchy eyes, and hunger
<ck_> and grues(?)
<Nistur> stylewarning: welcome to gamedev.
<no-defun-allowed> Nistur: What do you consider fun?
<Nistur> even when using "mature" game engines (we discovered last week that Unreal, when doing "AddUnique" to add a struct to a map, would only compare the first value in the struct and use that as an ID)
<stylewarning> Nistur: how much time are you thinking about investing in such a project
<Nistur> no-defun-allowed: I wrote an intel 8080 emulator, with debugger, for fun, and to learn how CPUs worked, and then hand assembled 8080 machine code to test it in a hex editor. This was a few years ago, and almost entirely during commutes on London underground... if that shows you what my idea of fun is :P
<no-defun-allowed> Hey, I tried to do that once, gave up and emulated chip8 instead. I figure writing a game engine that runs on a proprietary environment is likely harder, depending on what you want out of it though.
<Nistur> stylewarning: um, I have no deadline for this. If it moves forwards, or I learn things, then I'm good indefinitely in theory. I'd like to have _some_ lisp code running as a proof of concept in a couple of days.
<Nistur> no-defun-allowed: https://github.com/nistur/tlvm
<Nistur> oh, I forgot, I also wrote a brainfuck compiler in 8080 assembler for fun too... https://github.com/nistur/8080bf
<stylewarning> Nistur: do cross-platform GUI toolkits interest you?
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<Nistur> and, in my Curriculum Vitae project, I decided it would be fun to add an incredibly minimal lisp interpreter https://github.com/nistur/cv/blob/master/src/lisp.c (it is still very much WIP as I try to decide what to do with it, but I _think_ it's correct)
<stylewarning> Because if you make something like an open source CAPI you will be praised for decades to come by the entirety of the Lisp world (http://www.lispworks.com/products/capi.html)
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<Nistur> no-defun-allowed: the point was, my idea of fun is doing awkward and often pointless programming things to see what happens :P
<Nistur> stylewarning: um. Much as the idea of being praised is tempting... I have a pet hatred for GUI toolkits as they never ever do what I want and I end up rolling my own in every single project... but then again, I do gamedev, and game GUI is different than application GUI
<Nistur> (my CV lisp doesn't have macros... yet. I am aware of this flaw)
<stylewarning> Nistur: another useful project would be to make a C backend for SBCL. Allow SBCL to compile code to C.
<no-defun-allowed> Your CV Lisp also doesn't have lexical scoping, garbage collection and I don't think you've written much Lisp either.
<no-defun-allowed> Is `(set 'test lambda () ...)` not a typo?
<Nistur> no-defun-allowed: correct, correct, correct. As I said, I've wanted to write more lisp, but never got around to doing much apart from some basic emacs configuration. That specific one was written purely to be able to run a few lines, and I was intending to add GC etc in if I actually found a use for it
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<stylewarning> Nistur: I don’t like being discouraging but the kind of project you’re suggesting is an extremely tall order. If you want to write a little assembler and runtime in Lisp, maybe that’s reasonable, and you could live-patch assembly code in this runtime.
<stylewarning> The runtime is the most difficult part. If you decide to implement a Lisp aside/atop this runtime you could, but you need to solve problems like garbage collection and hot-loading first, which don’t require the idea of Lisp yet
<no-defun-allowed> Anyway, what I should tell you, Nistur, is that you have two things to do: to learn Lisp, then write a game engine. If you try to do both at the same time, your engine will look very weird to you in a short amount of time, and you'll be less efficient at learning Lisp.
<Nistur> My projects have always been big-goal, but I try to start off with something small as a proof of concept. Most of the projects I learn from the PoC and move on, I'm hoping (especially as I'm able to do this at work) that something might come from it, and I'll be able to roll with it
<no-defun-allowed> (Maybe that's my problem there, that most resources out there try to teach the target language and interpretation/compilation techniques (and occasionally the implementation language) at the same time, resulting in a hard-to-follow book.)
<stylewarning> Nistur: another idea: hack on Mezzano
<stylewarning> Nistur: port Mezzano to the PS4
<stylewarning> You will know Common Lisp inside and out after that
<Nistur> no-defun-allowed: I shall. But I think perhaps my... ambitions may have obfuscated my actual plan right now. The ambition is to be able to make a lisp engine... but the plan was to get a lisp environment (and I have no particular attachment with any one lisp or implementation). To make this a sort of viable thing for me to be doing in personal development time at work is to be able do something which is able
<Nistur> to run on console... which is why I wanted to get that out of the way first. mal and clasp both compile to LLVM IR, so I figured if I can do that, and hack in something so I can change clear colour of the screen from lisp or something, then I would have validated the tech, and could then start "learning" more... I wasn't going to dive right in and write a game engine without a more thorough understanding of
<Nistur> the language. One of the things I _do_ find fun is architecture, and I know I cannot do architecture without greater understanding of what I'm building with.
* beach thinks it is best for him to stay out of this discussion.
<no-defun-allowed> And what do console SDKs give you? My guess is something like an implementation of OpenGL or Vulkan, or something completely proprietary and detached from any other existing system.
<Nistur> beach: can I join you? :P
<stylewarning> If Donald Knuth was a lisp hacker, he’d be indistinguishable from beach
<Nistur> usually GL-like API for graphics, then wrappers for account access, controller input, and a bunch more things
<ck_> don't worry, we'll all be out of the discussion as soon as someone chimes in with the "this is not Common Lisp so it is off topic"
<no-defun-allowed> ck_: Schrodinger's topic: this discussion is about CL and not about CL until someone observes it
* no-defun-allowed cannot find the two-dots-above-o compose-key combination ):
<ck_> ": o"
<stylewarning> ck_: please see Section 1.5.3 of the HyperSpec on Conforming Discussions
<ck_> or " o, I'm not sure :( I miss ComposeKey on macOS
<no-defun-allowed> Of course it's ". I was thinking : but sideways somehow.
<no-defun-allowed> *Schrödinger's topic
<no-defun-allowed> Nistur: just saying, you started the discussion
<ck_> just type "oe" etc. next time you want to asciify an umlaut
<Nistur> no-defun-allowed: ;)
<no-defun-allowed> So you should have told yourself half an hour ago to stay out of the discussion.
<no-defun-allowed> Baggers's work on CL game development might be useful though: https://www.youtube.com/user/CBaggers
<beach> no-defun-allowed: Nistur is already aware of those apparently.
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<no-defun-allowed> Oh, didn't catch that.
<ck_> Someone recommended Chicken on the reddit post. Why not? Personally I've never gotten fluent in scheme though
<stylewarning> ck_: Scheme is sort of like studying Latin. You never really get fluent in it. (:
<no-defun-allowed> Chicken compiles to C and has a lot of libraries ("eggs") which could be handy, but CL has CFFI and a lot more libraries, though they aren't eggs ):
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<|3b|> stylewarning: is there that much demand for a portable CAPI replacement?
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<stylewarning> |3b|: IME there’s been a great deal of demand for making it easy to write a reasonable GUI, esp from newcomers
<stylewarning> And the answer is always “Qt, LTK, CLIM, or HTML/JS”
<|3b|> yeah, i've see that too. haven't looked at CAPI enough to tell if it qualifies though :)
<|3b|> doesn't seem bad from what i've read of docs in last few min though
<stylewarning> CAPI is sufficiently Lispy but not over the top
<no-defun-allowed> A CAPI clone would be very antiCLIMactic
<stylewarning> It’s the only GUI tech I’ve had the patience to use and build Real Things with
<|3b|> probably wouldn't be too hard to write something capi-like for glop2 (once glop2 exists sufficiently)
* |3b| adds it to the todo list
<beach> I think that, with the right documentation for McCLIM, we can make it much easier for newbies to use than what it currently is.
<ck_> I've used the Allegro Common Graphics once. It felt a little weird.
<Nistur> no-defun-allowed: I was joking. I'm actually happy I've had the discussion. I've learned some things :P
<Nistur> I was looking at chicken at one point. I cannot recall off hand why I ruled it out
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<beach> Nistur: For your information, I am working on a compiler framework for Common Lisp (called Cleavir) that can be customized to work with different Common Lisp implementations. Clasp uses Cleavir for its main compile, and there is also a Cleavir-based compiler for CLISP, written by karlosz. And of course, Cleavir is the only compiler for the SICL implementation of Common Lisp, which is still not finished, of course. Perhaps if you want
<beach> to implement a Lisp system, you could save some work if you base it on Cleavir.
<Nistur> hmmm ok
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<beach> Then again, maybe not. Just saying.
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<pjb> stylewarning: nope. The answer I give to newbies is pgl!
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<pjb> DrDuck: you didn't read: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html as I told you previously…
<pjb> (this is the reason why (symbol-value 'your-function) signals an error).
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<loke> Apparently the * variable in Lisp came from Macsyma:
<loke> “Inspired by MACSYMA's history variables, MACLISP adopted the convention in early 197 1 that the variable "*" would hold the most recent quantity obtained at top level”
<pjb> Who invented ** and *** then?
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<ecraven> aren't they kind of obvious (at least in hindsight)
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<pjb> But they could be invented by the authors of Macsyma, MacLisp or CL, or somebody else?
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<_death> stylewarning: I recently shared a few videos that show another approach to GUI
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<beach> _death: Where did you do that?
<beach> Thanks.
<beach> Either I am missing something, or I am not thinking clearly. Did you describe this approach somewhere? I mean, I can see stuff happening in those videos, but I don't know what it is that I am seeing and what is "another approach" about it.
<|3b|> _death: that's using 'dear imgui' through ffi?
<_death> it's work in progress, but basically I embedded ecl into a C++ program that uses imgui and started to write bindings.. I can edit things live with emacs, using slime for communication
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<_death> since I use an opengl/glfw backend for imgui, I can also use the corresponding CL libraries (just have to run such code in the GUI thread)
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<_death> I added a rudimentary lisp error window yesterday, and there is a restart to end the "current tick", but a debugger interface would require more effort
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<|3b|> there is also https://github.com/awolven/cimgui used by https://github.com/awolven/VkTk for imgui through cffi
* |3b| is starting work on a CL implementation of immediate mode gui idea, mostly aimed at gles/gl/vk (though possibly will also try to make it work on framebuffer at some point)
<|3b|> (on framebuffers without gles that is... one of the things i want it for in near term is linux fb with gles)
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* |3b| will probably take a while to catch up to 'dear imgui' though, it has lots of nice features :/
<_death> 3b: cool, wasn't aware of these projects.. but the approach is quite different
<|3b|> yeah, we CL people like our subtly different libs :)
<_death> with this approach it's also easy to integrate with other C++ libraries.. a pro (that's also a con) is that you don't need complete bindings, just add things incrementally, and that it's easy to avoid twisting your lisp code to fit the C++ API..
<|3b|> there is also https://github.com/Shirakumo/alloy for a non-immediate-mode gui lib, https://github.com/borodust/bodge-nuklear with ffi to different im gui lib, etc
<|3b|> yeah
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<_death> I was aware of the nuklear one.. seems both take a CLOS approach, sometimes mirroring the underlying library.. my approach is ad hoc balancing of Lispy code and imgui API ;)
<_death> also I want to avoid depending on opengl and such in ordinary gui code
<|3b|> yeah, i'll probably do same thing as imgui and nuklear and just generate a command list, with utilities to make it easy to dump that to GL or whatever
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<_death> one issue is that imgui is not very forgiving and would crash with asserts if, say, you didn't pop what you pushed.. I bet there's a way to give your own handler, but still.. in the meantime it's best to use with- macros for paired actions
<|3b|> c/c++ libs that like to assert are annoying :/
<amerlyq> simply befriend gdb :)
<amerlyq> I find long lisp backtraces no less annoying, matter of habit
<|3b|> seems like you'd have to get pretty friendly to convince the lib to keep running after a failed assert
<amerlyq> yep, different development cycle, altogether
<|3b|> backtraces might be annoying, but being able to fix it and try again is very nice
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<_death> yep, let me record a video showing the rudimentary error reporting :)
<|3b|> particularly when i'm doing 5 things at once in that image, having 1 of them kill the others for no good reason is not fun :/
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<|3b|> cool
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<_death> I thought about having an editor window with the lisp source inside imgui.. and with a real inspector, it would be closer to a smalltalk-like environment.. but maybe it's a phantom, because using emacs to develop is just so convenient ;)
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<|3b|> yeah, just run emacs in a terminal and display that in your window :)
* |3b| has done that before, unfortunately doesn't work on windows so had to abandon it :(
<_death> but it's definitely useful, and a repl window that can easily show charts, animations, etc. would be great.. in the same way that jupyter is :)
<|3b|> (windows emacs uses windows console instead of vt-whatever style, so only 1 per process, and slow/ugly even for that 1)
<_death> heh, didn't think of that.. I thought to look for a code editor module for imgui
* |3b| will try some of the lisp-based editors at some point, though mixing editors is messy
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<Shinmera> _death: Might want to check out Dissect if you want to include backtraces in your error dialog.
<_death> Shinmera: thanks, that will be helpful in writing a debugger
<|3b|> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbY-meOL57I was using embedded xterms and grabbing contents as a texture, made https://github.com/3b/3bst/ to try to improve on that but ran into the windows console problems and got stuck :/
<_death> looks awesome ;)
* |3b| considers running emacs on a remote linux box connected to slime on windows box, just so i can have multiple terminal connections to it, but that seems a bit too ugly :p
<_death> what about writing a console driver for emacs?
<|3b|> hmm, i need to catch up on pull requests one of these days :/
<|3b|> yeah, other option is to learn elisp well enough to just grab window data directly and send it over a socket
* |3b| doesn't consider learning emacs internals well enough to hack the C part a valid option
<|3b|> probably wouldn't be able to get it upstream even if i did manage to hack that
<_death> what's that chart on the top left
<|3b|> of the youtube vid? fps and frame time i think
<_death> ah :)
<|3b|> possibly also draw time
<_death> I ask because I also started on another imgui-related project that begins by capturing pulseaudio output and plotting charts
<|3b|> that graph is just immediate-mode GL lines i think, so nothing particularly interesting
<_death> ok.. imgui has a PlotLines function so easy as well.. https://adeht.org/dump/vid-2019-08-19T0517.mkv
<|3b|> yeah, definitely something i want in my im ui lib
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<DrDuck> when i'm defining something in slime, and try to go to a new line, it just evaluates while i'm using paredit
<DrDuck> how can i get around this?
<_death> 3b: there was this emacs package that allowed you to "view" emacs contents in a browser, live
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<|3b|> _death: sounds like a useful starting point, will have to look into that when i get a bit further in current stuff
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<beach> DrDuck: It is better to work with a source file in parallel, and to make your permanent definitions there. Then you can use C-c C-c to have the top-level form evaluated in your Common Lisp system. The REPL is best used for testing small stuff.
<beach> DrDuck: But yeah, I can see how paredit interacts in funny ways with the REPL.
<DrDuck> i found a workaround for now i think
<|3b|> i think you can use C-j
* |3b| just doesn't use paredit in repl (and doesn't use repl that much to start with, mostly type random forms into source and evaluate there with C-c C-c, C-M-x, C-x C-e, etc
<DrDuck> i wanna use the repl while i speed read "on lisp" today
<DrDuck> they got some continuations stuff in there i wanna understand
<Bike> graham's book? that has continuations?
<_death> DrDuck: I think he also defines the amb operator there
<Bike> does cps conversion. right.
<_death> Bike: yeah, for the prolog part iirc
<Bike> and nondeterminism two chapters later
<DrDuck> yeah and no exercises so i wont feel guilty
<Bike> guilty?
<DrDuck> idk if it's amb but there's significant continuation stuff compared to other options, i guess
<DrDuck> yeah for not doing them lol
<Bike> the point of exercises isn't to punish you, it's to get you experience
<Bike> and nondeterminism is pretty much amb
<Bike> he calls it choose, though
<Bike> did you try screamer?
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<DrDuck> no i just can't see how screamer could be something that i can use related to this paper
<Bike> it's a library that does amb.
<DrDuck> why doesn't it have the phrase 'amb' in it anywhere. confuses me so much
<DrDuck> gonna download it now
<DrDuck> but i'm still gonna speedread graham too
<Bike> because sometimes, people call the same thing by distinct names.
<Bike> fucked up but true!
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<Bike> seriously, did you just look for "amb", not find it, and go "oh this obviously completely different"?
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<_death> (one-value (let ((x (a-member-of '(a b c)))) (unless (evenp (char-code (char (symbol-name x) 0))) (fail)) x))
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<DrDuck> Bike: yes pretty much. the entirety of the project for the phrase and the entirety of the documentation for it as well
<DrDuck> lazy on my part
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<Bike> yes it was.
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<Bike> On Lisp defines amb too, but calls it choose, so it would also be useless to you by this standard.
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<DrDuck> partly true yes
<Bike> well, it's good that you're reading. hopefully you'll get an understanding of what amb is so you won't be inclined to use such a crude idea
<DrDuck> it's required, so it will be used
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<Bike> what's required? the name "amb"?
<Bike> cos no.
<DrDuck> oh no haha just the functionality xD
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<papachan> Question: do i have to use progn as body inside a (let ...) sentence if i have many executions?
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<Bike> let has an implicit progn.
<Bike> so no, if i understand your question correctly
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<beach> papachan: And what you call a "sentence" is known as a "form" in Common Lisp.
<beach> clhs let
<beach> papachan: Look at that page.
<beach> papachan: See the form*?
<beach> That means 0 or more forms.
<stylewarning> _death: thanks for sharing the videos
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<papachan> Bike, beach thanks
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<vms14> how can I improve this code?
<vms14> they're just 3 functions, but sure I'm doing wrong stuff yet
<vms14> or you have a better way to do it
<vms14> they're functions to call perl oneliners and later perl scripts
<verisimilitude> Firstly, you'd be better off giving your array a better default size than empty.
<Bike> do you always need to close the input and output streams to a process?
<vms14> I guess it closes automatically, but I should
<vms14> I'm closing the input because I had the program waiting for more input
<Bike> it might be good to use a string output stream instead of an adjustable string, but i haven't checked
<vms14> and closing it is like it receives end of file, because I've tried flushing and nope
<vms14> it works, format can work with this kind of arrays
<Bike> sure, but you asked for improvements
<verisimilitude> My second thought is why not rewrite the Perl in Common Lisp?
<vms14> right
<vms14> verisimilitude: I try to mix perl and lisp
<verisimilitude> I'm not seeing anything particularly wrong with this, sans that it only works with SBCL; this works correctly, vms14?
<vms14> yes, the "portable" library for run programs was very slow compared with the sbcl one
<Bike> yeah it seems okay at worst.
<vms14> so it's not portable, unless I improve the performance
<verisimilitude> If you're going to process the output as lines, why not collect a list of lines, instead?
<vms14> because the only way to improve performance is daemonize perl and make some sort of socket evaluating input and giving output
<vms14> verisimilitude: collecting will give me a list instead of only one string, not?
<verisimilitude> It's more efficient.
<vms14> I want the output as just one string
<verisimilitude> You're constantly readjusting an array.
<verisimilitude> Anyway, my fourth thought is to implement Perl in Common Lisp and then use that.
<vms14> then I should create a stream like Bike suggested
<|3b|> (format in "~a~%" input) seems a bit odd, do you care about values other than strings for INPUT? i'd probably write- and terpri if not, and document which others make sense if you do
<|3b|> docstrings in general would be a good improvement too :)
<|3b|> alexandria:read-stream-content-into-string would be simpler if you want entire output in 1 string
<vms14> maybe have a list of lines is more interesting in some cases
<vms14> so I could put a key parameter to choose if you want a list of lines instead of one string
<|3b|> possibly should also wait for process to finish before exiting, seems like you have a race with it as it is
<verisimilitude> There's nothing I love more than a program that drags in Alexandria for one convenience function.
<|3b|> i guess if read-line blocks, maybe not
<verisimilitude> What an inconvenience.
<vms14> I have tried it and it's not failing, at least wasn't failing for not waiting
<vms14> reading blocks
<verisimilitude> You can turn the list into a string at the end, vms14.
<|3b|> yeah, i'm probably wrong about race there
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* |3b| loves things that pull in their own random utility lib for one convenience function more than ones that pull in the utility lib i'm already using (= alexandria) :p
<vms14> verisimilitude: right
<vms14> then I'll add a key parameter
<vms14> and collect lines in while
<vms14> yeah, it's better
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<DrDuck> is the difference between (lambda ..) and #'(lambda ..) that the latter is like a function pointer?
<Bike> There's no difference in most contexts. The former macroexpands into the latter.
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<Bike> Sometimes older code prefers the latter, because in pre-common-lisp languages that macro wasn't in place, I think.
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<edgar-rft> There are hairy cases like ((lambda ..) ..) is a valid function call but ((#'lambda ..) ..) isn't, it would require (funcall #'lambda ..) ..) to work.
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<edgar-rft> sorry nonsense, once again: ((lambda ..) ..) is a valid function call but (#'(lambda ..) ..) isn't, it would require (funcall #'(lambda ..) ..) to work.
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<jackotobacco> Hi, so if I (require :log4cl) at the repl, I can use log:info
<jackotobacco> compile the file I get 'undefined variable log:info'
<jackotobacco> function just fine, but if I require in a file and try to
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<jackotobacco> whoops on the format
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<edgar-rft> jackotobacco: try this in your file and see if it goes away, replace (require :log4cl) with (eval-when (:execute :load-toplevel :compile-toplevel) (require :log4cl))
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<jackotobacco> edgar-rft: same result. Thanks for trying!
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<ck_> what do you mean "undefined variable", isn't log:info a function?
<ck_> jackotobacco: what lisp imlementation are you using?
<jackotobacco> ck_: actually you just solved it for me. So sorry, but I had a different chunk of code that said log:info outside of a sexp...
<jackotobacco> Sorry for wasting yall's time. Total CL noob, and it is taking me a sec to get up to speed
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<thijso> wow, compiling ironclad on ECL is slooooowwww
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<seok> What happens if I call defpackage twice?
<seok> does the second one override the first? or do all imports from either defpackage get imported?
<seok> http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_defpkg.htm seems to say it is undefined
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<semz> then undefined it is
<semz> you may be lucky that your implementation defines the consequences so that code relying on it will at least work there
<semz> but if it doesn't, relying on it gets you into pretty deep circles of hell
<semz> iirc redefining (or only recompiling?) functions is actually undefined, but almost every implementation supports it
<semz> so it's not like it doesn't happen, but you should probably try to rewrite the code in a standard-compliant way or consult your impl's docs
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<Bike> redefining functions is usually defined. multiple different defpackages is undefined though.
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<seok> Ya seems like it, thanks guys
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<cl-arthur> If I want to say (defclass class-name () ((some-slot ... :unique t))) and have that ensure all instances have a unique value for some-slot (by e.g. throwing an error otherwise), is that when it's time to hack together a metaclass?
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<no-defun-allowed> I think so. I did something similar for netfarm, where we have a second external name for serialisation, but we compare between slots instead of instances.
<no-defun-allowed> Though, you'd need to keep a finger on all instances that you're interested in and make sure that slot can't be updated.
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<Bike> cl-arthur: adding additional slot definition initargs will require a metaclass, yes.
<no-defun-allowed> However, if you are going to use the same slot every time (or don't mind writing similar code for different classes), you could just use one class-allocated hash-table and an :after method on initialize-instance that checks if the slot value is present in the table, then adds that object to the table.
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<cl-arthur> Thanks for the replies: sounds like it's time to dig into the MOP. (Certainly sounds a lot more fun than writing out repetitive code :) )
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