<Harag>
well thats that... version numbers updated quicklisp issue created... now I can get some sleep
<Harag>
thank you for the input, you guys must have a good evening
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<Harag>
morning
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<aeth>
What should I call my library to turn a variant of markdown into html for my static site generation? I fully expect it to bloat over time to cover other A->B transformations so I don't want to give it a specific name.
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<White_Flame>
call it md2html and suffer the consequences
<no-defun-allowed>
pandoc 2: CL boogaloo
<aeth>
White_Flame: the thing is, I might want ot have another source (even just another md flavor) or another destination (even just xhtml or xml)
<aeth>
s/ot/to/
<aeth>
and before you know it it's converting restructuredtext to org-mode because of how things just develop over time
<no-defun-allowed>
just trust me on calling it "pandoc 2"
<aeth>
I mean, yeah, it basically could bloat that much, but probably won't get THAT bad
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<jgodbout>
call it md2html, either a) it'll limit the bloat as a mental note or b) YOLO and at least youll have the memories
<no-defun-allowed>
stuff2stuff
<jgodbout>
at least a2b, has the benefit of less characters
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<aeth>
a2b, great
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<ck_>
why the frills? just call it 2. the rest is very easily accomplished with flags
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<aeth>
hmm, :2 would be the perfect name. CL parses it as :|2|
<no-defun-allowed>
|2|
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<edgar-rft>
aeth: if you want to avoid a specific name, just call it unspecific. That would perfectly resemble the state of most markup languages.
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<lisbeths>
If there is no flaw in the common lisp hyperspec then why does the military often choose ada instead?
<beach>
lisbeths: What a strange thing to say.
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<beach>
lisbeths: First there are definitely flaws in the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
<pjb>
lisbeths: there's a flaw in clhs: it specifies prog2 to return the result of the first expression.
<pjb>
lisbeths: this is why the DOD disqualified CL, and choose ADA instead.
<beach>
lisbeths: Second, where do you get the idea that the military would avoid choosing something just because its specification has flaws in it?
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<beach>
pjb: Right! :)
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<lisbeths>
For cerrtain task a less flawed thing is always preferred, beach.
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<beach>
lisbeths: yes, but there is no reason to believe that the Ada specification is less flawed than the Common Lisp HyperSpec, nor, as I pointed out, that the military avoided Common Lisp just because the Common Lisp HyperSpec has flaws. You just don't have any basis for that.
<lisbeths>
Why would the DoD choose ada if they could prove that neither was more flawed than the other?
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<beach>
lisbeths: Notice that we are talking about the Common Lisp HyperSpec, i.e. the document. Not the language as it was intended, despite the flaws in the specification.
<lisbeths>
Why would the DoD exclude languages written to the specification of common lisp and choose ada instead?
<lisbeths>
Is it known to the public why they made that choice?
<beach>
lisbeths: Furthermore, you started by assuming that the Common Lisp HyperSpec has no flaws, but we already told you that it does, so what is your point?
<pjb>
lisbeths: because an implementation written to the specification would do: (prog2 1 2 3) -> 1
<lisbeths>
maybe they'll know the answer in #ada
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<beach>
lisbeths: It appears that you have no insight into the process used by the military for choosing, or not choosing, specific languages. There is no reason to believe it has to do only with flaws in the specification. If you think otherwise, please provide some evidence for that.
<no-defun-allowed>
lisbeth: I wouldn't expect any sense of sanity or reasoning from military officials, honestly.
<beach>
semz: No, not formal. Check the Wikipedia for "formal specification"
<no-defun-allowed>
As in, a mathematical model for the language. I started reading the one for Standard ML on the weekend, then gave up since I'm not good with mathematical notation.
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<semz>
Seems excessive to make that a requirement, even though it's useful. Then again I'm not running the shop
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<lisbeths>
That to me read like a sort of propoganda piece.
<lisbeths>
It basically said. "Communist bad. Trick communists into using software we know is bad and we'll use it too but we'll use the bad software better."
<lisbeths>
If someone believed that document 100% they would come to the conclusion that the military preferred certain other languages to the ones they chose.
<aeth>
edgar-rft: that's actually a great name
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<no-defun-allowed>
sounds like an April Fools' document to me, but I would also expect that kind of stupidity to come out of a red scared US government
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<lisbeths>
Another hard to believe thing is that the americans could actually decieve the russians into using worse software.
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<beach>
lisbeths: Let's stick to the topic of this channel, please.
<alandipert>
p_l nevermind about let not interning binding syms - they're definitely interned. my arg to find-symbol just wasn't uppercase
<lisbeths>
I argue this channel has no topic and if you say that there is try to talk about that topic for a prolonged period of time to test that is indeed the topic. I ague you will find that any topic that is listed will not be satisfactory.
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<SaganMan>
Morning beach
<beach>
Hey SaganMan.
<SaganMan>
beach: how are you mate? how is your research going on?
<beach>
SaganMan: Steady but slow progress. I am working on translating high-level intermediate representation (HIR) to medium-level intermediate representation (MIR) for SICL.
<beach>
Luckily, there are now many people helping out with SICL and other essential projects.
<beach>
Heisig is working directly on SICL. And Bike continues the work on Cleavir. Many people, including jackdaniel, loke, scymtym and others are doing fantastic work on McCLIM
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<beach>
Heisig is also working on Trucler, a modern version of the CLtL2 environment protocol.
<beach>
And scymtym is working on several things, including a better inspector (Clouseau), the Eclector reader, and many libraries that will turn out to be highly useful in the long run.
<beach>
I may have forgotten something, but those are the ones that come to mind.
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<beach>
SaganMan: More information than you bargained for, I am sure. Sorry about that.
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<SaganMan>
nice beach, you're collaborating online or in real life?
<beach>
Mostly here. But some of us meet annually at ELS.
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<SaganMan>
ah, I see
<SaganMan>
nice nice
<SaganMan>
beach: I don't get enough time to do programming. I code lisp some time ago, did project euler problems. Upto 50 problems.
<beach>
I understand.
<SaganMan>
so beach, you're one of the developers of sicl?
<beach>
I am the one who created the project, and I am very likely the main contributor, yes.
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<SaganMan>
nice beach
<beach>
Thanks.
<beach>
If I am counting right, it has resulted in 13 ILC or ELS articles since 2014. So it is not just code, but also new techniques and such.
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<SaganMan>
woah
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<beach>
GAH! Four hours spent on proofreading the next chapter of Dyomkin's book. But I think it is a very important document, so I consider it part of my job description to do it.
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<ck_>
did you expect it to take considerably less time?
<beach>
No.
<beach>
It's just a large chunk of the day.
<ck_>
"Someone's got to do it"
<beach>
Indeed.
<beach>
I am uniquely well placed to do it, which is why I feel I should.
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<ck_>
That's a good thing too. Too many errata are too long because .. well I can only speculate. Editors place too much faith in the authors? Publishers in the editors? and so on
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<beach>
Well, in fact they eliminated copy editors some decades ago.
<ck_>
oh.
* ck_
is up to date
<beach>
Publishers just print whatever you give them, provided they see a market for it.
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<LdBeth>
I see why there’s a market for spell/grammar programs
<beach>
Indeed.
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<flip214>
well, I got paid for proofreading a few books...
<flip214>
beach: if you like, I can try to do the next few chapters to save you some time...
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<beach>
flip214: That's OK, I'll do it. But another pair of eyes might be appreciated. There are already a few chapters on planet.lisp.org and I think they are still possible to update.
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<jonatack>
beach: good that you are doing it. Dyomkin's content is very good and interesting but the writing does need proofreading. hope he is using it.
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<beach>
I think he is. And yes, you are right, it needs proofreading.
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<Josh_2>
what variables do I need to initialize in my top-level function when I save-lisp-and-die?
<Josh_2>
what type?
<pjb>
Variables that reference the things that won't be saved.
<jmercouris>
Josh_2: what's the question exactly?
<pjb>
Also, variables that reference values that will be different when you ressucitate your lisp image.
<Josh_2>
well I have a bunch of global variables in a 'configuration file'
<Josh_2>
hmm
<pjb>
Josh_2: this doesn't mean anything: there can be compilation-time configuration files, and run-time configuration files.
<Josh_2>
compilation time, its the first file listed in my system-definition
<pjb>
So the point is to initialize the variable at the time they need to be initialized, with the correct values for that time.
<pjb>
Josh_2: why do you keep giving irrelevant facts? Being the first file mentionned in a system definition file means nothing.
<pjb>
Josh_2: apart from definitely not being a compilation-time configuration file.
<pjb>
Since such a file would have to be loaded BEFORE the asd definition…
<Josh_2>
hmm
<Josh_2>
that would be a misunderstanding then :P
<pjb>
Also, it would be a good idea to keep the configuration in a single object or structure…
<pjb>
It's better to limit the number of global variables, the more so when they are special.
<Josh_2>
yes I thought about doing that, but I currently don't have the time
<jmercouris>
I disagree about limiting the number of global variables, I think that strongly depends on the application
<Josh_2>
the variables are storing things like db name, db password etc
<pjb>
jmercouris: sure. If the application is job security, go ahead!
<jmercouris>
pjb: :D
<pjb>
jmercouris: also be sure to have several variable with the same symbol name in different packages…
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<p_l>
pjb: global variables are common way to implement forms of pub/sub messaging in realtime systems
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<jmercouris>
anyone have experience with SBCL sockets?
<Josh_2>
Not using usocket?
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<Josh_2>
also I saved my image and it appears to be working just fine :)
<Xach>
jmercouris: i have used them
<jmercouris>
Xach: did you use any documentation to learn about them, or just look at the source or?
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<jmercouris>
I've not been able to figure out how to use them for a Unix Domain socket
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<Xach>
jmercouris: I had a fairly firm basis of understanding of the underlying Unix API, and the sbcl interface is a very thin layer.
<jmercouris>
OK, so basically write it in C first, and then try with SBCL?
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<Xach>
jmercouris: I don't know how well that would work. section 7 of the unix manual for ip, tcp, and udp could help. as well as IPC chapters of unix books.
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<jackdaniel>
if you want to get a basic communication working take a look at dependents.lisp file in clx
<Xach>
unix network programming by stevens helped me back in the day. things have changed a lot with regard to new ways to multiplex and stuff but the fundamentals still work.
<jackdaniel>
you should look in sharplispers group
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<jmercouris>
I see it now
<jackdaniel>
basically you want: (make-instance 'sb-bsd-sockets:local-socket :type :stream) (sb-bsd-sockets:socket-connect * "/foo/bar") (sb-bsd-sockets:socket-make-stream ** :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :input t :output t :buffering :none)
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<jackdaniel>
where stars are limited to count of two to avoid being accused of being a three-star-programmer
<jmercouris>
lol
<jmercouris>
ah you know that isn't so bad actually
<jmercouris>
that is quite simple!
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<jackdaniel>
yes
<jackdaniel>
(or I'm very good at explaining complex topics! ,) see you later
<random-nick>
uh, is there a version of EQUALP which uses CHAR= instead of CHAR-EQUAL?
<Xach>
random-nick: not built-in
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<Xach>
I don't particularly like SBCL's socket API, but the good news is that it takes only a small amount of code to make a new API with sb-alien if you like.
<Xach>
Especially if you only care about one platform
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<jmercouris>
sb-alien?
<jmercouris>
why would I use FFI?
<dlowe>
to interface directly with the kernel
<jmercouris>
that seems... like more work
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<jmercouris>
I've never done it, but it sounds very non-trivial
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<Xach>
jmercouris: the code of sb-bsd-sockets is relatively small and it uses ffi to do its work.
<Xach>
jmercouris: if you don't like what it presents, you can make something that you like better without much work.
<Xach>
In my experience, it was about as easy to add the FFI interface I liked as to build an interface I liked on top of one I didn't like.
<Xach>
And I really hate using FFI!
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<mrcode_>
I can second Xach . Sb-bsd-socket interface feels awkward enough to warrant making your own. It’s relatively simple and can be done in an afternoon. What I don’t like about sb-bsd-sockets is the random work it tends to do at the times you least expect it to. FFI interface of your own has a more DWIM feel to it
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<shka_>
good day
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<beach>
Hello shka_.
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<shka_>
beach: how are you today?
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<beach>
shka_: As I said before today, I spend most of the morning proofreading the chapter on linked lists in Dyomkin's book.
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<beach>
shka_: What are you up to?
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<shka_>
beach: i am still on vacations, i will likely implement code generation i have been talking about, i am also feeling like going back to that in-place merge sort algorithm again
<shka_>
i got frustrated, but this does not look all that complicated at all
<beach>
Sounds like you have a plan.
<shka_>
well, i ought to do that before, but i simply got pissed
<shka_>
now i am all revitalized
<beach>
I see. That's good. And it is never too late.
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<mrcode_>
Is there a good IMAP4 package out there that’s not abandoned ?
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<Josh_2>
when loading up asdf-system it isn't auto grabbing the packages in :depends-on with quicklisp, how do I get it to do that, or did I mess something up? do I have to manually load them with quicklisp before hand?
<Josh_2>
perhaps I could just load it with quicklisp
<Josh_2>
Yep xD
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<Xach>
Josh_2: that's what i usually do
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<Josh_2>
Xach: Do you use nginx to forward your http traffic to hunchentoot?
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<Josh_2>
oof I did it
<Xach>
Josh_2: i do
<Josh_2>
I was gonna ask how you do it, but I had done it correct but I didn't delete the default config
<Josh_2>
also, if I get https working do I need the certificate on both nginx and hunchentoot?
<Xach>
Josh_2: not needed
<Xach>
nginx can terminate the ssl connection
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<Josh_2>
Xach okay thanks
<Xach>
here is a fun fact! i have been using lisp + nginx for over ten years
<Josh_2>
wow
<Xach>
but it was only this year i heard someone say "nginx" out loud and i had no idea what they were talking about, technology-wise
<Xach>
and i felt like a big ol' dummy!
<Xach>
I'm glad no Lisp technology has an funky way to be pronounced!
<dlowe>
I would not have thought to try and pronounce nginx as a word
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<Josh_2>
I pronounce it "N Jynx"
<Xach>
"engine ecks" is what I heard, and I think it might be canon?
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<Josh_2>
yes, it is engine x
<Josh_2>
interesting
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<dlowe>
TIL
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<Oladon_work>
Heh
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<Oladon_work>
Xach: I think some could make the case that "cdr" might have some unusual pronunciations
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<ck_>
like what? Cheddar?
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<sjl_>
"cedar"
<sjl_>
(like the tree)
<ck_>
just smell them...
<ck_>
isn't that a line in Twin Peaks?
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<sjl_>
those were douglas firs
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<ck_>
ah.
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<aeth>
about yesterday... I'm really tempted to just call the library the ungooglable name "to"
<Oladon_work>
I have no idea what the context of that comment is, but D:
<aeth>
(if it was Scheme, it could be called -> instead)
<aeth>
Oladon_work: I need a name for markdown->html in a way that will inevitably accomodate the bloat to supporting other random things like reStructuredText->org-mode
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<Oladon_work>
aeth: ah, heh
<Oladon_work>
format-converter
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<alexanderbarbosa>
weird, sly offers clisp completion but slime wont...
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<aeth>
Oladon_work: "format" would be a great name if it wasn't already taken
<Oladon_work>
Heh
<Oladon_work>
Well
<Oladon_work>
I'd argue that it's not really a formatting tool, per se
<Oladon_work>
At least from your description above
<Oladon_work>
It's a tool for converting one format to another
<aeth>
My design goal is to go with an intermediate format which basically means that if someone wrote a different frontend or backend then it basically would just be a generic format converter. e.g. "**foo**" => (bold "foo") => (:strong "foo") => "<strong>foo</strong>"
<Oladon_work>
That's awesome... I could use one of those in JS... :P
<aeth>
Then an org frontend could use "*foo*" for (bold "foo") instead of markdown's **, and /foo/ for italics instead of markdown's *
<Oladon_work>
(Actually, I might be able to use it in Lisp for a different project as well)
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<aeth>
Basically if I can do "**foo**" => (bold "foo") => (:strong "foo") => "<strong>foo</strong>" then I could do "**foo**" => (bold "foo") => "*foo*" and translate md to org, assuming a backend was written
<aeth>
A bit harder, though, because it wouldn't be using s-expression-styled HTML/XML, though
<alexanderbarbosa>
hey y'all, is worthy reading Paul's Ansi Common Book or On Lisp for advanced topics? tnx
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<alexanderbarbosa>
Gentle Introduction Symbolic ends stating: "Writing really large programs requires a different set of skills than what this
<alexanderbarbosa>
book emphasizes; it is a good topic for an advanced Lisp course."
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<jackdaniel>
alexanderbarbosa: ANSI Common Lisp book is a very good introductory material and has quite stimulating excercises
<jackdaniel>
practical common lisp puts more emphasis on clos, but doesn't have excercises
<jackdaniel>
(clos seems to be a dominant programming paradigm among common lisp programmers)
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<alexanderbarbosa>
jackdaniel: ive read practical before gentle and did not understood most of it. I am one of those dumb learners that you have to say lots of time "to get it"... practical aint for me :D
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<alexanderbarbosa>
jackdaniel: What about On Lisp?
<jackdaniel>
on lisp assumes you do know common lisp
<jackdaniel>
ansi common lisp should be fine imo
<aeth>
jackdaniel: I'm not sure what you mean by "a dominant programming paradigm". Most CL code I've seen does use standard-objects, yes, but they're mostly just used as containers, barely scratching the surface of CLOS. Maybe there needs to be a CLOS book...
<PuercoPop>
there is on
<PuercoPop>
Sonya Keen's one
<aeth>
I wasn't aware of that one
<PuercoPop>
it is very good as a introduction to CLOS imho. It helped me understand the AMOP better
<jackdaniel>
aeth: most libraries I see start with defmethod not with defun
<PuercoPop>
there is also 'OOP in CLOS: a retrospective' or something similar
<aeth>
jackdaniel: not scientific because there are lots of duplicates (different versions over time) and I don't have all of quicklisp, but in quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software I get 338604 defun in wc -l and 182213 for defmethod. Of course, CLOS auto-generates a lot, and a lot of people wrap their defuns/defmethods in define-foo macros, so even if I had a snapshot of the current QL, that wouldn't quite work.
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<jackdaniel>
I'm not presenting scientific results - only my personal opinion
<jackdaniel>
another bit supporting my opinion is that pcl is usually recommended as an introductory material and it quickly moves to clos techniques
<jackdaniel>
so new programmers tend to be exposed to that first
<jackdaniel>
I'm not saying it is bad or anything, just stating a subjective observation
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<aeth>
I wouldn't be surprised if it's about even in methods and functions, but only if you count the auto-generated accessors in defclass, since those are way more common than the auto-generated functions of defstruct. Probably still a little in favor of defun. (I get 45992 defclass and 7777 defstruct)
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<aeth>
Although you'd need a better sample and a more sophisticated search that takes various defun/defmethod wrappers into account
<Oladon_work>
You've also got the whole issue that they aren't mutually exclusive...
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<jackdaniel>
I'm not sure for what I'd need more sophisticated search? I'm not looking for validation. good night ,)
<Oladon_work>
I use both in my projects, because in my view there's a time for each.
<Oladon_work>
jackdaniel: I think you're taking all this a bit too personally/seriously. That was a hypothetical "you" — aeth is engaging in a thought experiment. :P
<aeth>
jackdaniel: well, not "you'd" singular. "y'all'd" I guess.
<aeth>
but it doesn't matter, what shows up even with my search is that both are used a ton.
<aeth>
good night
<jackdaniel>
hm, I'm not taking it personally, just pointing out that all this counting doesn't make sense in light of clarificaion I gave that I speak about opinions, not metrics
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<Oladon_work>
jackdaniel: it's a thought exercise — he's not actually arguing with your opinion.
<Oladon_work>
aeth: g'night!
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<aeth>
Oladon_work: It was aimed at jackdaniel
<aeth>
for me it's only 17:21
<Oladon_work>
Oh, gotcha
<Oladon_work>
That'll teach me to try to pay attention to #lisp _and_ get work done...
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<alexanderbarbosa>
thanks
<aeth>
my earlier point on CLOS, though, was that people tend to use it pretty lightly afaik, though.
<alexanderbarbosa>
+1
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<aeth>
I'm not sure "defmethod" for generics is really "using CLOS". At least not compared to some of the stuff I've seen using CLOS (I've even done some light MOP myself).
<Oladon_work>
I'd tend to agree. I've seen people using defmethod for a single method that will never have any sort of specialization, and to me that's not using CLOS either
<aeth>
Oladon_work: well, as long as it's exported, it does have some limited utility, if someone wanted to add an :after or :before or :around to it
<Oladon_work>
True!
<Oladon_work>
I found the perfectest use of :before/:around btw
<aeth>
But in most cases it probably just slows things down for nothing... You don't need defmethod if you're working on a standard object! Only when you need (or your users need) to use one of defmethod's features!
<Oladon_work>
Yup!
<Oladon_work>
I'm writing a game engine which implements the rule set of a popular tabletop RPG. The ruleset includes the concept of an "attack of opportunity", which is an interrupting event.
<Oladon_work>
Cue :before and :around methods.
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<aeth>
Oladon_work: I think a truly robust API for general use probably should wrap every major exported function (* yes, functions aren't exported, symbols are) in an extra method in case someone did want to before/around/after it, or define it for other, similar objects... Probably would bloat things quite a bit, though.
<Oladon_work>
heh
<Oladon_work>
yeah
<aeth>
Not ideal, since it would also not override any internal function usage if it's just a layer on top of the functions... unless the methods use each other.
<Oladon_work>
Indeed
<Oladon_work>
And when you think about how often you'd actually do that with a library...
<aeth>
Right, you're doubling your API size just for 5% of users
<Bike>
works for amop
<aeth>
It's the kind of extra polish you rarely see in CL libraries, though
<aeth>
Bike: amop?
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<Bike>
i mean, making everything exported generic functions just so that programmers can wrap methods is the basis of mop
<Bike>
most of them are things that are never called in user source, or maybe even can't be, like slot-unbound
<Bike>
(well, "not intended", whatever)
<Bike>
brb
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<aeth>
Well, this would more be about defining two public APIs, where everything exported has two versions. So e.g. the method foobar* calls the function foobar. Perhaps with some of the methods going deeper so there are some interactions that can be overriden.
<aeth>
Interestingly, there is a convention for a low-level %foobar variant of foobar, but not a convention for a high-level variant of foobar!
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<pjb>
aeth: it is sufficient to declare those functions as notinline, so that the user may substitute it with advices.
<pjb>
aeth: so zero-cost to the general public, and cheap on the user who wants it.
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