jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.5.4, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<alexanderbarbosa> "off-topic": as they said, python *is* a good start for those that come from lisp languages. im feeling at home...
<alexanderbarbosa> alist, optional, rest, list...
<alexanderbarbosa> docstring..
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<aeth> A Python list is an adjustable vector in CL terms.
<aeth> The FP is very different and the lambda syntax discourages its use.
* no-defun-allowed giggles quietly
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<alexanderbarbosa> :D ...
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<alexanderbarbosa> wow, i love lispmemes, its the only non-prog reddit I signed :D
<alexanderbarbosa> no-defun-allowed: I was after any pl that was not that weird, by weird i mean, not lispy
<alexanderbarbosa> python, will do
<alexanderbarbosa> :D
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<LdBeth> Good afternoon
<beach> Hello LdBeth.
<manualcrank> is there any way with SBCL to change the control stack size programmatically?
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<manualcrank> the command-line option is --control-stack-size. The default is 2M.
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<manualcrank> but this is not enough for some of the problems kattis.com
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<LdBeth> I’m afraid it’s no possible dynamically extend the heap
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<LdBeth> However if you want to change the default option there’s :save-runtime-options for save-lisp-and-die
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<trafaret1> hi there
<trafaret1> how can I build lips project? I just download project from github want ot build it
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<no-defun-allowed> probably: put it in ~/quicklisp/local-projects, evaluate (ql:register-local-projects), then (ql:quickload :project-name)
<no-defun-allowed> check the README for any possible alterations to this procedure too (and also check if it's not in Quicklisp to start with)
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<trafaret1> no-defun-allowed: ok thanks
<moldybits> assuming you have quicklisp installed
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<Josh_2> When can I preorder the lisp book on algorithms :)
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<beach> Which one is that?
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<Josh_2> The new one being written about on planet.lisp.org
<beach> Ah. Looking now...
<Josh_2> I'm very interested in a book on algorithms and data structures in CL :D
<beach> Oh, dear, I think he has the wrong definition of call-by-value vs call-by-reference.
<beach> The Wikipedia article on evaluation strategy confirms it.
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<beach> What the author is referring to is what I call "copy semantics" and "reference semantics", so as not to confuse things.
<LdBeth> people frequently use return-by-value/return-by-reference for that
<beach> "return"?
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<beach> They use it for what?
<beach> And where did you see that?
<LdBeth> return/pass/call interchangeably
<beach> Call by value just means that an expression is evaluated before it is passed as an argument to a function.
<LdBeth> I saw that around various emacs uses when they’re talking about emacs lisp
<beach> It says nothing about how that value is transmitted.
<LdBeth> *users
<LdBeth> Well, yes
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<beach> But that is not what the author of the blog says.
<LdBeth> It’s precious to get some idea on how computer works
<beach> So?
<beach> That doesn't justify using the wrong terminology.
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<beach> Common Lisp uses call-by-value and (uniform) reference semantics.
<LdBeth> Integers are cheap and can be fit into registers, so we just copy them, objects are however large thus expensive to copy, so we use a reference that can be easily passed around
<beach> I didn't say anything about implementation. Here, "semantics" means "the language works as if".
<LdBeth> Get some idea on why people do that is good for understanding
<beach> That doesn't justify using the wrong terminology.
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<LdBeth> It’s kind like monad, people talks that because they generally don’t know what that is and always needs explanation
<beach> Is that so?
<beach> Call-by-value is a well established term, and it just means that, before a function is applied to its arguments, those arguments are evaluated.
<LdBeth> I suppose when a notion becomes well known, it gets less concerned.
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<beach> This terminology was certainly well defined in 1960, because Algol 60 talks about it.
<LdBeth> People reinvents terms and assign new names to them: lazy -> call by need
<beach> It was important because Fortran used (uses?) call-by-reference.
<beach> People should avoid redefining well defined terminology. If for nothing else to facilitate communication.
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<beach> OK, sent off an email to point it out to the author.
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<ggole> There's a very common confusion between call-by-value and pass-by-value, which mean quite different things
<beach> Not according to Wikipedia.
<beach> "Call by value (also referred to as pass-by-value) is ..."
<beach> I have never seen a separate, different definition of pass-by-value.
<ggole> Interesting, I've usually seen them used at very different meanings
<ggole> (But not always.)
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<ebrasca> Hello
<beach> Hello ebrasca.
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<ebrasca> Do you have some tip for making less bugs or searching them?
<beach> Sure.
<ebrasca> beach: Can you give some?
<beach> Define well defined protocols, and write a test suite for the implementation of each one.
<ebrasca> Step 1 is ok (tcp/ip protocol) . Test suite sound very hard to make.
<beach> Here, a "protocol" is a collection of (usually generic) functions and types (usually standard classes).
<beach> Not a wire protocol.
<beach> Protocol as in CLOS terminology.
<ebrasca> I don't undestand.
<LdBeth> Nah, I just recalled call-by-reference in FORTRAN is now more commonly referred as out parameter
<ebrasca> I am making better tcp for mezzano.
<beach> ebrasca: I used "protocol" to mean what it means in the CLOS literature. Not as a wire protocol.
<beach> ebrasca: It so happens that you are working on a wire protocol. Hence the confusion.
<LdBeth> ebrasca: what beach says is like software specification
<ebrasca> I have never read about this CLOS literature "protocol".
<ebrasca> I have read fat12/16/32 and ext2/3/4 protocols.
* ebrasca start thinking he don't know what protocols are.
<beach> ebrasca: Think if it as an extended version of a Java-like "interface".
<ebrasca> beach: Never used java , thanks!
<beach> ebrasca: Do you know the AMOP book?
<beach> minion: Please tell ebrasca about AMOP.
<minion> ebrasca: please look at AMOP: AMOP: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See <http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP>
<ebrasca> Is it going to make me better with clos?
<beach> ebrasca: Yes, but it is not restricted to CLOS.
<beach> ebrasca: Like I said, it is a collection of function signatures and types.
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<beach> If you look at the appendix of metamodular.com/SICL/environments.pdf you have a small example of a protocol.
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<ebrasca> Last time I try reading it , I have not undestand it.
<beach> I see.
<ebrasca> beach: I probably come later.
<beach> ebrasca: If you don't understand the concept of an interface or a protocol, you may end up writing some very messy software. I suggest you try to read up.
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<Josh_2> beach: yikes
<Josh_2> I have that book but have not started it
<Josh_2> perhaps I should use this weekend to get started, you have made me worried now beach ʕ·͡ᴥ·ʔ
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<beach> Sorry.
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<risto> hey everyone, I'm new to common lisp
<LdBeth> Hi
<beach> Hello risto.
<risto> awesome language btw :)
<Josh_2> risto: noiciceeee
<risto> i can't believe it's not more popular, w/e
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<LdBeth> GG
<risto> hehe
<beach> risto: There is no obvious correlation between something being good and it being popular.
<Josh_2> risto: you trying to butter us up?
<risto> yep
<risto> nope, just shocked really
<risto> anyways, I had a question about the :import-from syntax
<LdBeth> clhs defpackage
<risto> I wanted to convert the :use to instead explicitly import everything using :import-from
<beach> risto: I strongly recommend you not import from other packages (other than the COMMON-LISP package), and instead use explicit package prefixes. Your code will be much clearer, and it becomes much easier to refactor later.
<risto> yeah that's what i'm trying, but I can't get it to work for that example file:
<beach> risto: No, I am saying "don't import". Use package:symbol for all other packages.
<LdBeth> And beach usually go against :use any package other than COMMON-LISP for the same reason
<beach> other than the current one and the cl package.
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<risto> ah gotcha
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<risto> what about qlot? should i use that instead of quicklisp?
<ebrasca> It is interesting (make-instance 'class)
<LdBeth> qlot is based on Quicklisp, so if you find qlot more convenient then just use that
<LdBeth> But I personally don’t like the idea giving command line interface to lisp apps
<LdBeth> ebrasca: it’s more interesting that you can plug your custom type system/object system into CLOS
<beach> ebrasca: Here is a very simple protocol for you: STACK [class]. PUSH object stack [generic function], POP stack [generic function], EMPTY-P stack [generic-function], TOP stack [generic function].
<beach> ebrasca: Together with documentation about the return values and side effects of the generic functions, and the initargs of the class.
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<Josh_2> yikes
<beach> ebrasca: Once you have that, and an implementation of it, you can then write a test suite making sure that your implementation does what your documentation says it should do.
<beach> ebrasca: Like, the documentation should say that EMPTY-P returning false is a precondition for using POP and TOP.
<beach> ... or else an error will be signaled.
<beach> Oh, and include STACK-EMPTY [condition].
<Josh_2> thonk
<Josh_2> is this all in amop?
<Josh_2> that's what I do anyways, but I don't always use classes
<LdBeth> It’s the method used in amop
<ebrasca> beach: But , do I need to know what the original author have in mind to make this?
<LdBeth> But it doesn’t get explicitly introduced in the book
<beach> Josh_2: You can't not use classes.
<beach> Josh_2: NUMBER and CONS are classes too.
<LdBeth> Ha.
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<beach> ebrasca: I don't understand your question. The person who defined this protocol will describe in the documentation what was intended. I suggest you structure your code the same way so that you have fewer bugs, and the ones you have are easier to find.
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<beach> ebrasca: Then, the author will make a test suite that checks that a newly created stack is empty, that if 234 is pushed, then the result is not the empty stack, and that if then TOP is called, it returns 234. Etc, etc. etc.
<ebrasca> beach: I think there is documentation about mezzano tcp.
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<ebrasca> beach: sory . beach: I think there is not documentation about mezzano tcp.
<beach> I thought you were going to write the code.
<beach> ebrasca: What code are you planning to write that prompted you to ask how to make fewer bugs and easier to find ones?
<ebrasca> beach: There is someting not ok with tcp in mezzano. I don't know if it is my mistake or not.
<beach> Did you write it?
<ebrasca> beach: For now I am makeing tcp server part.
<ebrasca> beach: Some part yes , some part no.
<beach> Then the fact that there is no documentation is partly your fault.
<beach> ebrasca: But I am obviously not expressing myself very well, so I think I will be quiet for the time being.
<LdBeth> ebrasca: in this case I recommend you do a version control and make regression test on every changes you’ve made to the original copy of code
<risto> I still can't get the sexp.lisp example working without :use :esrap, I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong:
<risto> it thows with:
<risto> ; caught ERROR:
<risto> ; (during macroexpansion of (ESRAP:DEFRULE SEXP
<risto> ; ...))
<risto> ; Expected a lambda-list without required parameters, but (S &BOUNDS START END)
<risto> ; has required parameters.
<risto> ; Expected a lambda-list with 1 required parameter, but (S &BOUNDS START END)
<risto> ; has 4 required parameters.
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<risto> is there a tool to automagically convert a file with :use to the more explicit form?
<beach> No, and that's the problem with :USE.
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<beach> risto: For that error, you need to consult the documentation for ESRAP, or ask scymtym or someone else who knows about DEFRULE.
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<beach> risto: It may help to write esrap:&bounds but I don't know.
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<beach> risto: It looks like it takes &bounds to be just another symbol, so then the lambda list has 4 required parameters.
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<beach> risto: Again, I am guessing, but COMMON-LISP:SECOND has a single (required) parameter, so it probably expects your lambda list to also have a single required parameter, as the error message suggests.
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<risto> lol, yep
<risto> esrap:&bounds
<risto> thanks beach
<beach> Anytime.
<Josh_2> beach: I know that, I mean defining my own
<beach> Ah, OK.
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<puchacz> hi, what's the recommended mathematical library please? I need linear regression, linear regression through origin, exponential regression, fixed power law regression etc.
<puchacz> I may need to write some of these routines myself
<puchacz> "fixed point power law regression" I mean
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<francogrex> Hi, does anyone know if there is an android abcl lisp project? I am trying to tinker with it, the dexed class files run on dalvikvm... but that's just it
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<francogrex> well, i've managed to run it on the command line as dalvikvm -Xmx256m -cp abcl.dex:abcl org.armedbear.lisp.Main where abcl.dex contains the dexed files and the abcl folder the .lisp files.
<francogrex> I am running the ansi tests on it, but so far I know that it doesn't load compiled files (although it does compile functions and files)
<pjb> francogrex: there's an android ecl lisp project.
<pjb> francogrex: abcl compiles to the JVM. So until you port the JVM to android…
<pjb> AFAIK.
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<francogrex> pjb: are I can try to tweek it to compile to android. it seems to work fine as interpreter only
<pjb> That's what I'd expect.
<pjb> francogrex: you will have to write an abcl compiler backend to generate dex instead of jvm.
<francogrex> but pjb, ecl for android (unless running inside a arm image) is also only interpreted -- or is it only bytecode compile?
<jackdaniel> ecl always at least bytecompiles
<jackdaniel> it doesn't interpret
<pjb> francogrex: bytecode compile, since it uses its own VM. I don't know if you can also install gcc to use it as ecl backend. I would think it should be possible, despite the restrictions in Android.
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<jackdaniel> regarding modules in ecl, you may build them if you have C compiler available on the android host. moreover you may crosscompile module beforehand
<jackdaniel> so you compile fasb library separately and load it on android device
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<francogrex> ok yes
<jackdaniel> cross compiling works but not as smooth as we'd like, something what requires some polishing
<jackdaniel> (i.e host compiler must have same common compile-time configuration settings as the target
<jackdaniel> )
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<francogrex> I never succeded in cross-compiling any project on one arch to another
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<puchacz> is android dalvik more like java 8 (or older) or java 11?
<puchacz> current abcl as distributed does not work on java > 8
<puchacz> actually it is probably not related, as abcl problem is about incompatible class hierarchies for what I remember, not different vm
<jackdaniel> java is a language, dalvik is a virtual machine. it would be more appropriate to compare it to jvm
<jackdaniel> and afaik they are different
<puchacz> dalvik != jvm?
<puchacz> so yes, abcl problem was on java level, not vm level for what I remember
<jackdaniel> I think that abcl targets jvm (i.e it doesn't transcompile to java)
<puchacz> yes, but it cannot "deliver" compiled opcodes into a file that can be loaded by another ABCL
<puchacz> I always loaded programs from sources, it keeps cached compiled files, but you cannot collect them into a package and "deliver"
<puchacz> yes, but it cannot "deliver" compiled opcodes into a file that can be loaded by another ABCL
<puchacz> I always loaded programs from sources, it keeps cached compiled files, but you cannot collect them into a package and "deliver"
<jackdaniel> I thought it had a delivery option to compile to .jar files
<puchacz> rly?
<jackdaniel> yes, but I would have to check it to confirm
<jackdaniel> ask on #abcl
<puchacz> ok
<jackdaniel> maybe someone is awake now
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<scottj> How would I load the clx composite extension? I think the rest of clx was loaded because it's in the :depends-on of stumpwm.asd.
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<jackdaniel> if it exists but doesn't have system of its own and file with this extension is not loaded by clx system, then only (load (compile-file "extension.lisp"))
<jackdaniel> in that case please report a bug
<scottj> jackdaniel: I'm not very familiar with asdf, does this provide any clues? https://github.com/sharplispers/clx/blob/master/clx.asd#L87
<jackdaniel> that means that the file composite is indeed loaded when you load clx
<jackdaniel> so if it implements said extension you should have it available if your system depends on clx
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<scottj> My bad, it was loaded, I was looking for a package like xlib/composite since the gl extension has xlib/gl but composite's in the xlib package itself.
<scottj> jackdaniel: thanks for your help
<jackdaniel> no problem, I'm glad you have it sorted out
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<puchacz> I have this: (setf *read-default-float-format* 'double-float)
<puchacz> can I do the same for output? for example, when I evaluate (log 7), I get 1.9459101F0
<puchacz> F means it is single float
<puchacz> I know I can evaluate (log 7.0) to get double float, but I would like to get it from integer as well
<Bike> that's not a matter of printing, it's a matter of what log actually does
<Bike> and in CL all irrational mathematical functions are defined to return either rationals or single floats if given rationals
<Bike> you can't change it
<puchacz> Bike: okay, thanks
<Bike> of course you could define your own (dlog x) = (log (float x 1d0)) to force the issue
<puchacz> I guess I need to make sure I don't use integers or rationals as inputs because I want double floats on output of all mathematical functions
<Bike> well like you said and i said you just need to convert them to doubles first.
<puchacz> Bike: thanks
<jackdaniel> if you ensure that all inputs are double floats declaring them so may boost your performance
<puchacz> jackdaniel, indeed
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<jackdaniel> and reduce consing fwiw
<puchacz> one day we will have a set of numerical tools that is blessed by the community :)
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<pjb> puchacz: (log (float 7 0.0d0)) #| --> 1.9459101490553132D0 |#
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<pjb> puchacz: or: (log (coerce 7 'double-float)) #| --> 1.9459101490553132D0 |#
<puchacz> pjb: yes, basically ensuring inputs are double floats
<puchacz> I am writing a single argument function for that so it is easily composable in mapcar and the likes
<puchacz> just can't decide the name for it :)
<puchacz> to-double-float
<jackdaniel> make-it-so sounds reasonable and self-describing
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<ck_> excellent. other good choices might be "engage" and "energize"
<jackdaniel> don't forget to make it a method, so others may specilize to do the right thing™
<jackdaniel> i.e when called on string it will print it on a screen ;)
<puchacz> make it javascript and friends, when called on string, parse it to a number first
<puchacz> (no, joking)
<jackdaniel> s/method/generic function/
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<jgodbout> minion: registration, please?;
<minion> The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=b90223d1 will be valid until 19:45 UTC.
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<MrMc> Are there libraries in Common Lisp to do signal Processing?
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<edgar-rft> MrMc: there are some audio-related pojects like Incudine (music synthesizer)
<edgar-rft> or are you looking for a general DSP framework?
<edgar-rft> Incudine -> http://incudine.sourceforge.net/
<MrMc> edgar-rft:I have created a library binding for the bladeRF SDR and would like to demodulate FM signals
<MrMc> and play them on the sound card
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<Kundry_Wag> Hi. Is there any lisp (or known programming language from other family) that uses normal-order evaluation? Just curious.
<edgar-rft> MrMc: Real-time DSP is done rather seldom in Common Lisp. Soundcard audio output is manageable, but do you want the demodulation in Common Lisp or can you use the DSP hardware on the bladeRF fo that?
<edgar-rft> Kundry_Wag: with Common Lisp macros you can implement any evaluation model you want.
<Kundry_Wag> edgar-rft: Yeah, sure. I was just wondering if normal-order by default would be so impractical (mainly because of evaluation side effects more than once) that it's not present in any mainstream programming language
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<Bike> haskell. too late
<no-defun-allowed> is "normal-order" lazy evaluation?
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<no-defun-allowed> then lazy racket might be less of a headache and also still off-topic but less so by an arbitrary measure
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<LdBeth> Kundry_Wag: there’s LISPkit, which’s used in CSP research
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<LdBeth> Which proper strict analysis (i.e. converting as much as possible to applicative order) the performance can be quite impressive
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