jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.5.4, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<sveit> hi. for some numerical methods I am writing, it would be very useful to make the basic mathematical operators (+,-,sin, cos, etc.) generic. these methods will be applied with both numbers and my more special types. say I have some function f implemented using the generic versions of these functions, my dream is to somehow get the SBCL compiler to emit optimized assembly for f when called with usual numeric types. is there some trick
<sveit> people use for this situation?
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<aeth> sveit: This library exists, exactly for generic functions for numbers and arrays in mind. https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/
<aeth> There might be similar attempts, too.
<aeth> sveit: Unfortunately, it doesn't have access to the type inference of the compiler, only the type declarations, so using the fast path is not very idiomatic.
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<sveit> aeth: thanks, I'll check it out. I would have guessed this is a pretty common use case for CL given the features/orientation of the community
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<astronavt> i like the latter because i can wrap my head around it :)
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<verisimilitude> I've been emailed by someone using the name ``Schemer Boy'' about providing a tar archive of some of my libraries to add them to Quicklisp. Would any of you happen to know anything about this?
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<ck_> Sounds convoluted.
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<flip214> verisimilitude: if these libraries are on github, downloading a zip is as easy as appending ".zip" to the tree URL... perhaps .tar or .tgz works as well?
<flip214> sveit: also see CL21, I believe that all the things in there (like #'+ and #'-) are generic functions that can be extended for your data types
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<verisimilitude> They're not, flip214; I host my libraries myself.
<verisimilitude> My not using Github is, in fact, part of the old issue I experienced with this.
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<verisimilitude> In any case, I'll stick around for a tad until I reasonably determine why I received this email, if this is the place to discern such a thing.
<ck_> Does "Schemer Boy" mention being on IRC?
<verisimilitude> No, but I figured Xach, perhaps, may have discussed this with him, say, since he seems to have asked Xach about the details.
<ck_> If someone asks him "how can I make xzy available through quicklisp?" the answer could well be "get the code and put it on github".
<verisimilitude> Yes.
<verisimilitude> Perhaps I just wanted an excuse to drop by, I suppose.
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<LdBeth> Any good readings on implementing rational numbers and arbitrary precision numbers
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<beach> What do you need to know?
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<LdBeth> beach: the algorithm used to define arithmetics on rational num/arbitrary precision number
<LdBeth> Or how’re there implemented in lisp
<LdBeth> If not use GNU Multiple Precision library
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<beach> Multiplication can be complicated if you need high performance. Otherwise, simple algorithms will work unless you have truly huge number.s
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<beach> You represent a bignum as a sequence of digits in base 2^64. For addition and subtraction, you do the same thing as you probably learned in school for base 10.
<LdBeth> I see
<beach> Or, if you implement it in Lisp, each digit should probably be a fixnum.
<beach> If you do it in assembler, you can use the carry flag of the processor.
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<beach> For multiplication, have a look at the Wikipedia page "Multiplication_algorithm". Simple multiplication is also similar to what you did in school.
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<pjb> Computing with ratios, the question is when to reduce them. At the end of the expression may lead to big bignum numerators and denominators, but computing the GCD at each operation may be slow… It may also be worth keeping the decomposition of the numerators and denominiators as internal representation.
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<refreshing_drink> Has anyone here been able to get ABCL to interop with JDK 11?
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<flip214> refreshing_drink: easye told me some time ago that this is work in progress, IIRC
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<refreshing_drink> flip214: is there anywhere i can track that progress or maybe help, while being given guidance ofcourse?
<refreshing_drink> the ABCL github repo seems quite dead
<refreshing_drink> and abcl.org/svn points to a blank page
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<flip214> refreshing_drink: that's just because of WebDav
<flip214> refreshing_drink: did you see https://github.com/armedbear/abcl/pull/96 ?
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<refreshing_drink> O_o
<refreshing_drink> hmm?
<refreshing_drink> oh so it does work under jdk11?
<flip214> Not sure whether that was merged... but perhaps you can use that as a starting point?!
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<thijso> In the event this is not something to do with quicklisp, I'll ask the question in here, too. I'm trying to install quicklisp using ECL in a docker container. Doing (quicklisp-quickstart:install) gives me a Condition of type: INVALID-ARGUMENT-ERROR with the comment: Socket error in "socket": EINVAL (Invalid argument)
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<thijso> Anyone able to point me in a direction to fix this? Is this maybe something with running it inside docker? I am able to download other stuff in the container (like with wget or apt-get update), so it has a connection to the internet
<d4ryus> thijso: when you are inside the debugger you can enter :b to get a backtrace
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<thijso> SI::*BREAK-ENV*: ((QLQS-NETWORK::ENDPOINT . #) (QLQS-NETWORK::PORT . 80) (QLQS-NETWORK::HOST . "beta.quicklisp.org"))
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<thijso> Is that # in the ENDPOINT a placeholder for the real value, or is that maybe the error?
<thijso> in :v I see QLQS-NETWORK::ENDPOINT: #(143 204 15 123)
<thijso> So the endpoint should be defined, right?
<thijso> I can ping that IP, so that's not the issue
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<jdz> thijso: it seems to me that the "socket" function (man 3 socket) does not like one of the parameters passed to it.
<thijso> hmmm... I'm probably not the only one trying to install quicklisp in ECL, right? So this error must have something to do with being in a docker container? Somehow? I'm stumped.
<thijso> Maybe I should try it without the docker stuff...
<jdz> I have ECL with Quicklisp running fine. Sans Docker.
<thijso> exactly
<jdz> ECL version 16.1.3.
<thijso> I'll try to install it plain. See what happens
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<thijso> On the other hand, you having it running (and a ton of other people, probably) is proof enough. So how do I get it working in the docker container? As that is kinda the whole object of the exercise...
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<pjb> thijso: what kind of network do you have inside a docker?
<pjb> thijso: quicklisp doesn't deal very well when proxies are needed.
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<thijso> pjb: from inside the docker it's just a regular local network in the 172.xxx range. No proxy needed. As I said, wget and apt-get just work without any trouble.
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<flip214> question about CFFI on sbcl: In CL-GIT I found the trick of defining a return code type to get automatic success checking: https://github.com/russell/cl-git/blob/master/src/error.lisp#L68
<flip214> That works fine for functions defined via CFFI:DEFCFUN, but if I use that return type for CFFI:FOREIGN-FUNCALL-POINTER the check doesn't happen.
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<flip214> does somebody know why that is different, resp. how to make that check work as expected?
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<flip214> disregard, found the bug [ (defmethod translate-from-foreign ...) vs. (defmethod cffi:translate-from-foreign ...). Edit error.] Sorry about the noise.
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<jack`> Hello everyone, I have an input stream that has a bunch of lines on it. I'm trying to read it using a Do loop, but only the first line is being processed. Can anyone see what is wrong?
<jack`> (with-input-from-string (res output)
<jack`> line)
<jack`> (do ((line (read-line res t nil nil) (read-line res t nil nil)))
<jack`> ((not (null line))
<jack`> (princ line)))
<jack`> Let me know if I should send code differently.
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<jack`> Common Lisp SBCL ^^
<d4ryus> jack`: are those two read-line calls on purpose? also why 'recursive-p' t?
<Bike> jack`: yeah, in the future please use pastebin for anything more than like, a line.
<Bike> d4ryus: those have recursive-p nil, don't they?
<d4ryus> Bike: yes, sry, meant eof-error-p
<Bike> jack`: this loop doesn't print anything. (not (null line)) is the condition for it to stop. so read-line returns the first line, which is not nil, and the loop ends immediately
<Bike> jack`: and d4ryus is right, you want (read-line res nil) for both calls. if you do that it works fine.
<Bike> there are two read-line calls so that it's reevaluated each iteration
<d4ryus> ah, yes. DO is still alien to me, i think i never used it^^
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<pjb> Well, the recursive-p to T may be useful if you want to read a first line #1=(a b c) and a second line #1# to read twice the same list (a b c).
<pjb> But I don't think it'd works without a surrounding READ…
<pjb> s/rks/rk/
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<pjb> But for READ-LINE, it is not useful (unless you have other calls to READ where you want the #=/## to be processed.
<pjb> d4ryus: and recursive-p is the last optional argument, so it's set to NIL here.
<thijso> Hmmm... that's weird. When I try to use a docker image (docker pull daewok/lisp-devel) and start ecl in it, I get the same error when I try to ql:quickload an uninstalled package. So the socket error is not related to my docker build, but my machine? Something in my host setup is breaking it? I'm really stumped now.
<thijso> Well, there goes that assumption... Same problem on my laptop, a different machine. Although both with the same (type of) OS. Okay, time to dual boot into a plain Ubuntu, then...
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<thijso> Grmbl... Different host OS (Ubuntu instead of funtoo) makes no difference either. I can't believe I'm the only one that's tried to use quicklisp in ECL inside of a docker container... ?
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<pjb> thijso: I'd like to use docker (perhaps), but so far I fail to understand how they work, and what they are exactly. I know virtual machines, and chroot jails…
<thijso> I think they're somewhat between those two, actually. I use them mainly to encapsulate stuff and to document all the system config steps I need to do to get something up and running (as you need to write that stuff in your Dockerfile).
<thijso> Anyway, time for some food, and maybe a good nights sleep on this. I'm stumped and have no clue what my next step could be.
<pjb> thijso: perhaps you need to write diffs in dockerfiles, but since I don't know what you start from. I'd start by installing a kernel…
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<pjb> Said otherwise, you cannot run dockers written for linux on darwin for example. So the concept is broken. (You can run VMs across platforms).
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<_death> thijso: you could try to localize the problem. if you look at qlqs code, you can see that it does (require 'sockets) and then (make-instance 'sb-bsd-sockets:inet-socket :protocol :tcp :type :stream) .. you could try that yourself. if it gives an error, you could dig into the relevant initialize-instance method
<PuercoPop> verisimilitude: The email you mentioned earlier was probably the result of a recent quicklisp issue
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<risto> hey, does anyone know if you can prove parts of your lisp code (the applicative parts) using acl2?
<risto> from the docs and papers it seems like it should be possible, but I can't seem to find any concrete example of how to do it
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<risto> or if not acl2 something similar
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<Xach> Wow, a riastradh sighting.
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<pjb> risto: that's the point of acl2, to prove algorithms.
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<risto> i know, i'm looking specifically for an example of how to verify a common lisp algorithm
<pjb> risto: however, concretely, you will have to transform your code a lot, since the acl2 language doesn't deal with a lot of CL notions.
<risto> well it says it's an applicative subset, i'm ok with being restricted to that subset
<risto> i just wanted to try it out
<pjb> You would have to write a lot of acl2 to teach it the semantics of CL, so it may be able to prove CL code directly.
<risto> oh ok
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<risto> maybe i misunderstood it, i thought it was for verifying an applicative subset of common lisp
<pjb> I would consider it more like a theoreom prover that is able to prove algorithms.
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<thijso> pjb: the whole idea of a docker is that you run a container using the host's kernel. The containment comes from the cgroups (I think it's called) that's in linux kernels these days.
<thijso> _death: I think that I will need to go down that road...
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<thijso> What I find a little strange is that I'm the only one (seemingly) running into the problem. So I'm pretty sure it's something in my setup or something I'm doing wrong. Just have no clue what.
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<_death> it's likely a docker related configuration issue
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<jack`> Bike: ok, I will use pastebin. Yeah not sure why I set eof-error-p like that. Thank you so much for recognizing my silly mistake.
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<Bike> no problemo
<Bike> also i mean just use /a/ pastebin, it doesn't have to be any particular site
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<papachan> can i use sb-sys:interactive-interrupt to handle C-c with read *query-io* ?
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<learning> when you're not programming in lisp but still keep the irc chans open to remind you who your true god is
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<Oladon_work> learning: heh
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<learning> i was reading a conversation today between programmers where one of the guys was telling a lisper that shadowing variables is always bad practice
<learning> the lisper was like, "if i want to call something a specific thing, i will"
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<verisimilitude> I appreciate your helping me, PuercoPop. I tried emailing this fellow, but gmail decided to not allow my email to go through, as it usually does. If anyone cares to, that Github issue can be resolved by knowing I have gzipped tar archives now available at the following URLs:
<refreshing_drink> Does common lisp support first class continuations?
<verisimilitude> It's late, but look into Karatsuba multiplication, LdBeth, and there's a paper on a new multiplication algorithm for large numbers that I've not yet read, but it's fascinating.
<Bike> refreshing_drink: nope. there are some systems to automatically rewrite in CPS form.
<refreshing_drink> :( damn
<refreshing_drink> can you elaborate, Bike
<Bike> it does have escape continuations, but i assume you want indefinite ones
<Bike> elaborate on what, rewriting?
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<verisimilitude> If you want to avoid C-c killing or interrupting your program, papachan, simply change the terminal settings so C-c sends the End of Text control character, instead.
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<DrDuck> "It enables a variety of control structures that can be employed to substantially improve the robustness of systems. A continuation is a captured control state of a computation. If a continuation is invoked, the computation continues at the place represented by the continuation."
<DrDuck> this is what i need x_x
<Bike> maybe elaborate on what specifically you're doing?
<DrDuck> i want to try to bring sussman and radul's propagator model to common lisp
<verisimilitude> Scheme lacks UNWIND-PROTECT, if I recall correctly, which is rather necessary for real programs.
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<DrDuck> i'm reading this paper first before the radul one, and sussman is harping on it being good to have continuations for this model"
<DrDuck> "A continuation may represent the act of returning a value of a subexpression to the evaluation of the enclosing expression. The continuation is then a pcoedure that when invoked returns its argument to the evaluation of the enclosing expression as the value of the subexpression"
<DrDuck> woops
<Bike> verisimilitude: dynamic-wind is a generalization.
<Bike> but nobody seems to understand it, so there's that
<verisimilitude> I recall seeing a paper about Scheme's lack of equivalent to WITH-OPEN-FILE due to this.
<verisimilitude> That is, a lack of a robust equivalent.
<DrDuck> damnit
<Bike> i don't know if dynamic-wind is standard or anything, scheme being what it is, but there's certainly support for it, and it covers everything unwind can do
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<Bike> drduck: continuations are commonly used as an implementation tool for more specific control structures. in this case an amb operator. you can probably figure something out to do the same operator without using continuations per se.
<papachan> verisimilitude: sorry i didnt get it. :p
<verisimilitude> What?
<verisimilitude> You don't understand?
<verisimilitude> Would you like an example, then?
<DrDuck> "Continuations are a natural mechanism to support backtracking. A choice can be made, and if that choice turns out to be inappropriate, an alternative choice can be made and its consequences worked out.
<DrDuck> :(
<DrDuck> surely somebody has made a nice CL continuations library
<verisimilitude> There are several, I believe.
<Bike> why are you quoting this document
<DrDuck> what's the difference between using a continuations library and first-class continuations
<DrDuck> because i'm wanting to use it as a guide
<Bike> i already found it and skimmed it to see what about continuations is relevant
<DrDuck> good!
<Bike> he's talking about an amb like described in SICP
<DrDuck> really?
<Bike> it says "amb" in the text
<DrDuck> what is the defacto AMB thingy in CL
<no-defun-allowed> screamer?
<verisimilitude> Boy, I sure love ``de-facto'' libraries.
<Bike> i've never used it
<DrDuck> :D
<verisimilitude> You can always write your own, if you want to learn more about continuations, DrDuck.
<Bike> it would be an interesting exercise
<Bike> described in substntial detail in SICP if i remember correctly
<DrDuck> i would probably do a piss poor job
<DrDuck> and the task of writing something related to the propagators paper is already a task i prolly cant handle lol
<DrDuck> but sure maybe
<pjb> DrDuck: there's a nice delimited continuation in CL. But not full continuations.
<Bike> have some self confidence
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<DrDuck> Bike: so you believe screamer is fine for the type of continuations he is going on about in the paper?
<Bike> it does the same kind of ambiguous computation, so i would guess so, and trying it out is probably more worthwhile than addressing lamentations to the spirits
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<thijso> Okay, so it seems I'm getting somewhere. I just don't know where the hell that is. In sockets.lisp in ecl there is a function get-protocol-by-name which uses inline c to determine what proto-num TCP should be, by doing something like pe=getprotobyname("TCP");return pe->p_proto; For some reason this ends up being -1, or ERROR. If I plug in 6 (which is the value I see for IPPROTO_TCP in
<thijso> /usr/include/netinet/in.h, it all starts working. So the problem is in determining what proto-num TCP should be, and for some reason that fails in a docker container.
<pjb> thijso: so, do you have a /etc/protocols in your docker?
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<thijso> nope
<pjb> dockers sound rather dumb…
<pjb> You will have to add it. Mind adding a whole bunch of other files such as /etc/services /etc/networks etc…
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<pjb> I were you, I'd got /etc/* /usr/* /bin/* etc…
<thijso> well, it's strange that it's not there. It's basically an ubuntu base system, so it should have all that stuff.
<thijso> But thanks a lot for that pointer! I'll see if that solves my issue
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<_death> also sounds like ecl could give a more descriptive error there
<thijso> agreed, _death
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<thijso> Thanks, pjb, adding netbase (which provides /etc/protocols in ubuntu) solved the problem.
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<DrDuck> Does anyone know how one would implement or extend a Java class in ABCL? Is that possible? :P
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<DrDuck> So if i want to implement continuations on my own for common lisp, 'Lisp In Small Pieces' would be what i need to reference?
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<Bike> extending java classes in abcl is possible i think. check the manual.
<DrDuck> easye: how can I help get ABCL compatible with OpenJDK-11?
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<aeth> Who is the person here who has been using CL with Jupyter? With common-lisp-jupyter or something not in Quicklisp?
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<DrDuck> oh nice there is actually a branch for jdk11 that works
<DrDuck> supposedly going into 1.6.0 at some point. Woohoo!!
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<Adamclisi> #lispcafe
<Adamclisi> that was a bit embarrassing, sorry
<aeth> I've seen worse channels than #lispcafe show up through errors like that
<LdBeth> GG
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<edgar-rft> aeth: AFAIK it was drmeister who used CL + Jupyther
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<drmeister> Hello
<aeth> drmeister: what do you use for jupyter?
<drmeister> Stuff like this:
<drmeister> Why - what's up?
<aeth> drmeister: So you start swank from jupyter so you can share a session with SLIME (connecting to the CL started from jupyter?) and then just use jupyter for displaying your results? That's clever.
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<drmeister> edgar-rft 9
<drmeister> Sorry about that.
<drmeister> I just got some new keyboards and was unplugging/plugging keyboards
<drmeister> Yes on the slime/jupyter.
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