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<defn>
hello
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<no-defun-allowed>
please /nick defun
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<no-defun-allowed>
also hi
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<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: that's not allowed
<no-defun-allowed>
aeth: fine
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<LdBeth>
good morning I
<no-defun-allowed>
Morning LdBeth
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<torbo>
Does slime have reader macro support? I notice that I'm able to use reader macros in sly but not slime. Is there something I need to configure or does slime just not support reader macros?
<Bike>
what do you mean support?
<Bike>
you can't like, deal with lisp source text without reader macros
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<torbo>
I understand. However, clsql reader macros don't seem to work in the slime repl.
<torbo>
Please excuse me if my terminology is not spot on, I'm relatively new to Common Lisp.
<Bike>
"don't work" as in what, you get an error about bad syntax?
<Oladon>
torbo: it'd be helpful if you'd tell us what you're trying to do and what (exactly) is happening
<Bike>
i just tried that in my slime and got a hash table.
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<torbo>
Nice. Maybe my configuration is broken somewhere. I'll have to investigate. Thank you for checking for me, I really appreciate it.
<Bike>
the slime repl just passes things to sbcl's read and eval. it should behave almost exactly the same as sbcl at a terminal, other than like formatting stuff.
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<torbo>
Ah, yes, you're right, it does work. The reason it's broken is because I've loaded up another package before running that command and I called (in-package :other-package) first, and I think that in that package, I'm loading up other reader macros that may be affecting the readtable in some way.
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<torbo>
(by "running that command" I mean "evaluating that expression")
<Bike>
yeah, some other state alterations would do it
<Bike>
might help to restart sbcl to be sure there are no malevolent influences
<Bike>
M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp
<torbo>
I've been able to replicate the problem, and the expressions that cause the inconsistent state are the following:
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<loke>
I was sure there was a way to export a symbol from one package into another package and a different name... I.e. so that (eq 'foo:a 'bar:b) ⇒ T
<loke>
Was I dreaming? Or if not, how do I do it?
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<Bike>
i don't think tha'ts possible
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<mfiano>
Well you could use package-local nicknames, but it's non-conforming and only available on 5 implementations.
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<beach>
That won't solve the problem.
<mfiano>
But only changes the package, not symbol-name
<no-defun-allowed>
SYMBOL-NAME is always consistent, regardless of package
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<LdBeth>
the reader can be hijacked to produce foo:a when encountering bar:b
<mfiano>
Right, he's looking to map different symbol-names for a symbol internal to one package to another. READ would need to be modified for that behavior as to know which package's LUT to reference for the mapping.
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<loke>
mfiano: The question originates from a larger question as to whether it's possible to create consistent aliases in Common Lisp. I.e. something where (fpp
<loke>
Something like (foo "x") would be identical to (print "x")
<LdBeth>
But it might be more useful to let the compiler/eval handle that, if aliasing/renaming is desired
<LdBeth>
And let eq two symbols remain consistent
<LdBeth>
For example a macro involves the aliased function has been loaded before the aliasing definition
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<loke>
LdBeth: If the same symbol could have different names, that would have solved that problem. Then symbols FOO and BAR would literally _be_ the same thing.
<loke>
I thought some variant of symbol aliasing was used as an argument why some people use keywords for loop commands?
<LdBeth>
As no-defun-allowed mentions, the SYMBOL-NAME issue
<loke>
I'm OK with SYMBOL-NAME returning a name that is not consistent with its name in a package, and I thought that was possible. But apparently not.
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<afidegnum>
hello, anyone online ?
<no-defun-allowed>
no
<afidegnum>
:)
<afidegnum>
please can you give an idea?
<no-defun-allowed>
(:
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<no-defun-allowed>
an idea: "colorless green ideas sleep furiously"
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<afidegnum>
i m trying to build a drop-n-down html builder a la dreamweaver with Js support, but i am confused with what GUI toolkit should i use, i read about McCLIM, Slip but i am a bit perplexed,
<afidegnum>
the GUI will have an internal browser engine to preview the page intead of opening an external browser,
<loke>
afidegnum: CLIM is quite opinionated in how you build your applications. If your design matches CLIM's idea of interaction (or if you're willing to adjust your ideas to match) then it's a good choice.
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<loke>
You _can_ build anything of course. It's just that CLIM won't help you as much if you choose to go certain routes.
<afidegnum>
but what other GUI tools do you suggest?
<loke>
afidegnum: Note really. It all depends on what you need.
<loke>
I'm comitted to CLIM right now myself, as I help out with maintaining (and evolving) it.
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<afidegnum>
Drag-DOwn feature of vectors which will generate DOM nodes which can be previewed in a customed web browser, so will be the Js
<LdBeth>
Why not QT
<afidegnum>
Qt have a web toolkit engine but it's in the commercial license
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<afidegnum>
loke: what libraries in CLIM can help with that?
<loke>
afidegnum: None
<LdBeth>
afidegnum: afaik qtwebengine is licensed under a BSD-3 clause style license which doesn’t prohibit either modify or redistribute
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<LdBeth>
Although it might not compatible with GPL
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<afidegnum>
well, i m a bit confused here :)
<LdBeth>
*fix it is compatible with GPL
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<p_l>
afidegnum: you might be also interested in running chrome or firefox in debugger-driven mode with external debugger (your application)
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<jackdaniel>
fun stuff, one asdf function has 184 arguments (combineds, with default initargs included)
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<no-defun-allowed>
which one?
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<jackdaniel>
I don't know, I'm working with ECL's argument stack now and it is one of diagnostic messages done with "printf"
<jackdaniel>
and it happens during load of asdf.fas
<no-defun-allowed>
:/
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<jackdaniel>
if I had to guess I'd bet on one of make-instance methods from asdf's mixin-spaghetti
<no-defun-allowed>
oh well, nice to hear that there aren't any functions that require 184 arguments at least
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<p_l>
I wonder how well currently used Lisp implementations would deal with multi-terabyte heap
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<Xach>
If you send me the hardware I will report back.
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<beach>
p_l: What would you do if the answer is "not very well at all"?
<p_l>
beach: If I got a chance to play at it, I'd probably look at improving off-heap data libraries (akin to that old object-storage system that used mmap()ed memory and stored data using custom metaclass)
<Xach>
I would include that in my report but retain the hardware for further testing.
<p_l>
also was thinking of maybe attempting to improve SBCL's GC (as I use it the most often)
<p_l>
Xach: you'd attempt to get rid of it due to power bill
<beach>
p_l: I see.
<p_l>
Xach: source - I had access to part of such hw, they were already eating significant amount of power
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<Xach>
soon it will fit into a device that fits over your ear.
<p_l>
not so soon, we're reaching physical issues in manufacturing, though stacking is getting improved
<p_l>
I'm pretty happy with 1.5T - 3T being reasonably available in 2U/4U size
<p_l>
SGI UV3000 got to 64TB and 256 sockets, and that was nearly 4 years ago
<p_l>
Xach: btw, did the cron job issues go away? :)
<beach>
p_l: Do you have ideas about how to improve SBCL's memory management?
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<Xach>
p_l: yes, things are happily running now, telling me that aserve -> paserve has broken a bunch of things.
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<beach>
p_l: Followup question: Do you think it is possible to make radical changes to the memory management system without having to redesign large parts of the rest of the system?
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<p_l>
beach: so long as the new system doesn't require too drastic changes in mutator
<beach>
And you think you can make significant improvements to the memory management system without requiring such changes?
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<beach>
Oh, well.
<akoana>
beach: that was a killer question :)
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<beach>
I sure hope p_l isn't dead.
<akoana>
:)
<p_l>
Hehe
<p_l>
Busy outside
<p_l>
But yes, the changes I was thinking about involved only the collector, not mutator
<p_l>
Things like multithreaded collector, metronome-style collection, etc
<beach>
I see.
<p_l>
Metronome being a constant-time variant
<p_l>
Though that one might require forwarding pointers to be effective
<p_l>
So that would be nogo
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<Lycurgus>
an lfarm with 32 64 GB images would do for me
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<p_l>
There are tasks that have problematic issues in scaling horizontally, unfortunately
<p_l>
Including some complex databases
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<ebrasca>
Hi
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<ebrasca>
Is there some method to execute some function if some change in state is done?
<dlowe>
yes!
<ebrasca>
Like if some connection in some set change , then this connection go to established queue ?
<ebrasca>
dlowe: how?
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<dlowe>
ebrasca: I don't know. Your question is too vague.
<Oladon_work>
hehe
<pfdietz>
ebrasca: one could, for example, have an around method on the setter function for a slot of objects of a particular class.
<Xach>
ebrasca: there is nothing built-in to trigger some action when an arbitrary object is modified.
<ck_>
If Kenny Tilton were here, he'd tell you about cells
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* ebrasca
need to think, he need to make good networking for Mezzano.
<ebrasca>
I am thinking. When one become hacker?
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<[rg]>
which channel is the lisp one? this channel is only common lisp iirc
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<ebrasca>
[rg]: It is ##lisp
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<[rg]>
thanks ebrasca
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<jackdaniel>
ebrasca: according to the hacker lore you become a hacker when fellow hackers start to perceive you as one
<jackdaniel>
regarding tracking the state, the silliest of silly naive approach would be spawning a thread which busy-waits on said variable
<ck_>
there's other definitions
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<jackdaniel>
I personally adore the tv definition: shut-in genius who enters banks from the spreadsheet console (and javascript code is spinning in the other monitor as if it were cat invocation on a really slow terminal)
<ck_>
I'll whip up a G.U.I. using Visual Basic -- see if I can track that I.P. address
<jackdaniel>
erm, spreadsheet ui, I don't think they have consoles
<ck_>
But I was referring to something else. This document isn't in english, but you can see how effectively they have HACKED a piece of hardware in this report: http://www.team-cauchy.de/hackmac/
<jackdaniel>
:)
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<pfdietz>
You can become a movie hacker by yelling "I'm in!" every time you successfully connect using ssh.
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<ebrasca>
Is there some hacker in this chat?
<Xach>
ebrasca: no
<Bike>
hacking is illegal
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<Oladon_work>
pfdietz: hehehehe
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<ebrasca>
Bike: You know I am writing about true meaning of hacker.
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<_death>
hack the gibson
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<ebrasca>
Thanks!
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<mfiano>
Hey Bike. I just was looking in my logs for something, and I noticed a claim you made about 2 months ago that I don't think to be correct.
<Lycurgus>
uh oh
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<mfiano>
You had mentioned that deployment on LW strips out the interpreter and compiler. I have a test here that shows both are included. Infact, there is even a :keep-eval and :redefine-compiler-p option when delivering to optionally not.
<mfiano>
Yeah no worries. I was just curious how that could be true so I looked into it. Didn't mean to correct you; just wanted to share my findings.
<Bike>
i was figuring they were selling a commercial product and wouldn't want licensees to be selling their own IDE or something
<mfiano>
compile-file, deliver, inspect, and some others are stripped though
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<Bike>
that pretty much matches my thinking here
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<Lycurgus>
well they do have a distributable runtime
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<p_l>
I believe Allegro is more strict in licensing of deliverable runtime
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<asarch>
What do you think? (if predicate (let (...) ...) (let (...) ...))
<asarch>
I mean, it is much better than: (if predicate (lambda (...) ...) (lambda (...) ...)), right'
<asarch>
?
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<asarch>
Besides (slot-value ...), (with-slots ...) and (with-accessors ...), is there any other way to access to a class' slots?
<asarch>
(Just for my notes)
<no-defun-allowed>
It's rude and unCLOSy to access slots, but those are the only ways, yeah, and the latter two are probably defined in terms of SLOT-VALUE and some kind of MACROLET.