phoe changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.16, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<equwal> Stupid question: how do I check if a package exists?
<dialectic> equwal: (FIND-PACKAGE NAME), where NAME is a string designator.
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<equwal> oh
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<no-defun-allowed> (find-package "NAME")
<spacedbat> luis: I have to use jira/confluence, its not by choice
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<stacksmith> makomo: I am just cleaning it up, will put it online somewhere shortly. I was considering making a pull request with cffi as it does not break anything and adds considerable capabilities...
<stacksmith> aeth: (with-c (:temp point p1) (setf x 1 y 2) ...) (:struct point) works too, or 'point although it barks about bare structures. I do (defparameter point (cffi::parse-type (:struct point)) and just use point - it works in everything except with-foreign-slots for some reason quotes the type instead of evaluating it...
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<dialectic> is USE-PACKAGE limited to a single file or do I have to UNUSE-PACKAGE at the end?
<dialectic> You know what, I should just not do that
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<stacksmith> Damn, how do you avoid emojis here? I couldn't google anything at all for that...
<stacksmith> Although I can appreciate cffi::parse-type.
<stacksmith> aeth: so instead of (foo bar), to differentiate accessors for different instances and types, I have per-instance prefixes. So if you are creating two points, you can set prefixes to "P1-" and "P2-" and it will bind p1-x and p2-x. You can also manually bind symbols of your choice to any slot, and use any name you please.
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<stacksmith> aeth: makomo: I made a repo for with-c at http://github.com/stacksmith/cl-with-c I have not exhaustively tested it, but it seems pretty close to good.
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<makomo> stacksmith: cool, thanks :)
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<dialectic> I know this is not necessarily that popular in this community because most people use paredit but I have been thoroughly enjoying parinfer
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<dialectic> However, one minor irritation, which is my fault - sometimes when I refactor, I am still in indent-mode, and I didn't have the good-sense to switch to paren-mode, and I accidentally change the indentation in certain places, which rebalances parens and gives me a nasty bug
<dialectic> Just venting.
<no-defun-allowed> I mean, I'd rather work on structure than dealing with either parens or whitespace. I think paredit is closer to that.
<dialectic> I never could get used to paredit. Felt too much like learning to play an instrument. I'm sure you get the muscle memory for it eventually.
<dialectic> parinfer is definitely better for "beginners"
<no-defun-allowed> And I wonder how parinfer would work for Lisp, rather than Clojure. You'll typically want two left parens at the start of a let binding list, for example.
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<dialectic> I think I know what you're getting at. I type (let ((b1 f1), and then on the next line I can hit tab twice to get to the inside of the bindings list.
<dialectic> In other words, it's knows where the lists are and has "smart tabbing".
<beach> no-defun-allowed: There is a good use case for (LET (VAR1 ...) ...)
<no-defun-allowed> That's why I said "typically".
<beach> I see.
<no-defun-allowed> You use bare symbols when you are going to set the initial value later, but often I'd say I already have an initial value.
<beach> Yes, that's the most frequent case
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<equwal> Is there something like 'symbol-function' and 'boundp' for the macro namespace?
<equwal> *fboundp
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<beach> clhs macro-function
<equwal> Thank you beach
<beach> Anytime.
<equwal> I've seen that before. I find the name "macro-function" a bit unintuitive.
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<equwal> Neat that it is in fact a function.
<beach> Why is that?
<equwal> I didn't expect macros to be a function.
<equwal> I suppose it makes sense though, since it is just shifting around a list.
<beach> A macro is a function that, when applied to a form and an environment, returns a new form.
<beach> Look in the glossary under "macro function".
<dialectic> equwal: Are you using any books? Like Practical Common Lisp or Common Lisp the Language
<equwal> I've read PCL, though I don't have a copy handy. Perhaps I should go find a PDF right now.
<dialectic> It's free online.
<equwal> Of course it is. I've just bookmarked it, I'll look there the next time I have a trivial question, thanks.
<dialectic> "Is there an analogous function that does for macros what fboundp does for symbols" wasn't really trivial and I doubt MACRO-FUNCTION even shows up in PCL. :P
<equwal> well...I don't remember it :P
<dialectic> CLtL2 does a better job at giving you a succinct tour of the whole language. And this will sound wacky but I have willed myself to sit down over two weekends and read straight through the hyperspec chapters and I found that to be quite illuminating. Kent Pitman is an excellent communicator.
<dialectic> I actually asked "are you using a book?" because of your earlier question about the THE special form.
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<stacksmith> dialectic: Let Over Lambda is one of my favorite sources of inspiration. And On Lisp, of course.
<Godel[m]> minion: registration, now!
<minion> The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=3cf08c06 will be valid until 05:30 UTC.
<beach> Godel[m]: You can communicate with minion using private messages.
<Godel[m]> Thanks.
<no-defun-allowed> Göd.el: You can be more polite to minion too.
<no-defun-allowed> minion: Sorry Göd.el doesn't say their pleases and thank-yous.
<minion> you should be sorry
<Godel[m]> I'm having trouble with registration. Neither am I able to login into my (not registered via minion's link) account, nor can I register under the same email or username anymore.
<Godel[m]> I was polite the last time I asked.
<Godel[m]> Didn't work.
<no-defun-allowed> minion: Can we have registration please?
<minion> does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you?
<no-defun-allowed> Oh dear.
<no-defun-allowed> minion: registration please?
<minion> The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=ab6c671a will be valid until 05:45 UTC.
<dialectic> What a rude little bot.
<Godel[m]> No, I meant, the registration didn't (finally) work out :)
<Godel[m]> My unregistered account has been blocked, is this the right place to complain about that?
<aeth> is that because you had the link in here instead of private messaging the bot so someone else accessed it too?
<aeth> idk how that bot thing works
<no-defun-allowed> Also struggling to get 2FA working again.
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<Godel[m]> aeth: No, I registered, then it asked me to ask minion for a link. I followed the link and found that somebody (me) had registered an account under my username and that username has been blocked now.
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<LdBeth> #'no-defun-allowed: what’s the registration for?
<no-defun-allowed> LdBeth: for gitlab.common-lisp.net
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<LdBeth> I registered earlier, via my GitHub account, but no longer works.
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<flip214> Godel[m]: which username?
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<carmack> Hi! Imagine I have some kind of associative array that is essentially configuration data. Is there a convenient associative array in Common Lisp that is easy to work with?
<ck_> ? weren't you asking about looking up things in alists the other day
<ck_> there's also hash-table, maybe more the speed you want
<dim> associative array sound a lot like hash-table to me too
<White_Flame> if configuration data is intended to be literal human written data, then alists or keyword-based plists are generally fine
<White_Flame> hashtables have no literal format in plain CL
<White_Flame> *literal representation
<carmack> I know about the hash tables, but is there anything else?
<xristos> carmack: alists and plists
<jackdaniel> alists are lists in a form ((key . value) (key . value) …)
<jackdaniel> plists are lists in a form (:key value :key value …)
<jackdaniel> CL has functions to work on such structures
<xristos> use prin1 to serialize them and read to read them back
<White_Flame> you can use (destructuring-bind (&key ...) plist ...) to extract all the plist keys at once
<carmack> well and everytime if i want get some i need use (assoc `key` list)?
<xristos> or write your own macro
<carmack> sure macro ;)
<White_Flame> or convert it into a hashtable after you read it
<White_Flame> alexandria has routines to convert to/from hashtables & a|p-lists
<carmack> because (gethash &key ht) look so bad
<carmack> why i can't just like (ht:key
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<jackdaniel> this syntax is reserved for package:symbol access)
<jackdaniel> s/)//
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<carmack> Well, maybe like that (ht :key)
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<carmack> what ever...
<moldybits> close over a hash table
<jackdaniel> (defmacro define-hash-table name parameters) `(progn (defvar ,name (make-hash-table ,@parameters)) (defun ,name (key) (gethash ,key ,name)))
<jackdaniel> voila
<jackdaniel> now (define-hash-table foobar ()); (foobar :xxx)
<jackdaniel> writing setf function is left as an excercise for the reader
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<carmack> jackdaniel: ok thx
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<jackdaniel> if CL were Lisp-1 one coulde define a funcallable class and you could put the instance as the first atom in the application
<jackdaniel> but nvm that
<jackdaniel> you still could define such class and work with (funcall ht :key). that said using gethash will be easier for the eyes to anyone who reads your code
<jackdaniel> so I'd suggest sticking to it (of course it is your program, so you are free to do whatever you want)
<carmack> I'd like to read this code
<carmack> Only I will read this code.
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<jackdaniel> another way to tackle the issue is defining a generic function ref: (defgeneric ref (elt &rest accessors)) which has specialization for arrays, lists, simple vectors, hash tables and other arbitrary objects
<carmack> I saw an example where a hash table is created using #H(...), but I have this causes mistake.
<jackdaniel> and then you'd be able to specialize it on your own object as well without chaning the call semantics
<dim> cl21 has reader macros for hash-table and some utilities such as the generic function above
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<carmack> dim: where i can read cheat sheet?
<carmack> dim: these macro?
<dim> http://cl21.org ; though I don't like that very much, and I think most people here don't either
<carmack> I see that example
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<carmack> (defvar *hash* #H(:name "Eitaro Fukamachi"))
<carmack> but it don't work for me :)
<xristos> jackdaniel had the better approach
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<xristos> i'd avoid cl21
<jackdaniel> I'm always eager to recommend my recommendations, so I second xristos !
<dim> my own recommandationn for carmack would be to read https://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf first and then only decide on how to improve his code style
<heisig> I wonder why that issue with hash table literals comes up so often. I never had any need for it myself, and I'm using CL a lot.
<heisig> And, should I ever need it, #.(alexandria:alist-hash-table '((foo . 5) (bar . 9))) doesn't seem so bad.
<no-defun-allowed> oh yeah, cl21 is also cl21 so jackdaniel's advice is probably less controversial
<jackdaniel> to be honest I always stop for a second or two wondering what is the argument order
<carmack> dim: i already read ANSI Common Lisp
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<jackdaniel> (in gethash)
<no-defun-allowed> It's one of those things where if you really need it, you really need it, but if you don't, you don't notice.
<dim> that's good, now read Norvig's advice for CL code style, you will like it! it answers many questions you seem like you would have at this point
<no-defun-allowed> *... if you need it, you really need it ...
<no-defun-allowed> I can't remember why I wanted literal-ish hash tables once, but I know I did for one project.
<carmack> dim: i mean i already reading book
<carmack> dim: sorry bad english
<shrdlu68> no-defun-allowed: What type were your keys?
<no-defun-allowed> I really don't remember.
<jackdaniel> subtype of T for sure ,)
<no-defun-allowed> It was #.(aref (make-array 1 :element-type nil) 0) from memory.
<shrdlu68> I'm experiencing a lot of "popular language" envy these days for CL :(
<no-defun-allowed> What do you mean by that?
<jackdaniel> no-defun-allowed: can't be, such arrays have maximum length 0
<shrdlu68> Seems everyone is blogging about Rust and Golang.
<no-defun-allowed> jackdaniel: Really? Then again, an array with element-type NIL isn't much use.
<pjb> heisig: I guess, from other programming languages that have hash-table literals or syntax to build hash-table. The distinction is not always clear!
<no-defun-allowed> Of course they are. Computer science is a pop culture. But where does CL tie into that?
<jackdaniel> no-defun-allowed: well, even nil is not of type nil, it is an empty set of types
<shrdlu68> I wish it were more popular. Silly sentiment, really.
<surrounder> because populair is better?
<pjb> Just write popular programs in it!
<jackdaniel> so you can't have anything in such array, hence the only possible size is 0
<no-defun-allowed> Yep, gotta love bottom types, jackdaniel.
<no-defun-allowed> That's true. Good point.
<heisig> no-defun-allowed: CL is like Jazz. There aren't so many fans, but it has some of the best musicians :)
<no-defun-allowed> heisig: I agree.
<jackdaniel> and, as like jazz, it ain't dead, it just smells funny ^_^
<ck_> I prefer that to the "Quick, let's code everything in ReAngular! It's super easy all you need to do is ..." alternative
<carmack> Does anyone here have a job related to CL programming?
<Godel[m]> Improvisers...
<dim> I think we should work on infrastructure level programs, such as proxies or web API things, something powerful and dynamic where CL would shine and be fast and people would love it...
<jackdaniel> I think this joke requires a little explanation for people who are not jazz fans: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Frank_Zappa
<no-defun-allowed> "The CL Is The Ultimate Solution"
<heisig> jackdaniel: About the array of type NIL - I am pretty sure that they can have any size. It is just that you can't access the elements.
<jackdaniel> carmack: yes
<carmack> jackdaniel: What's your work experience?
<heisig> Something like (length (make-array 9 :element-type 'nil)) is well defined.
<jackdaniel> heisig: I think you are wrong, but I'm not eager too look into the spec for it
<jackdaniel> because array stores something and it can't store nothing
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<jackdaniel> carmack: I do CL consultancy and maintain free software. I don't think this is a place to boost about it though.
<heisig> jackdaniel: Yes, let's not discuss this absolutely pointless data structure.
<no-defun-allowed> I currently have Quicklisp set up to play Spider of Destiny whenever I load hunchentoot for some reason. It was funny for a week I guess.
* jackdaniel looks at the clip right now, it is funny indeed
* jackdaniel rewires his QL
<no-defun-allowed> jackdaniel: https://pastebin.com/Y4xebXER
<jackdaniel> :)
<no-defun-allowed> It may be helpful to note that Hunchentoot is the spider referenced by the song's title.
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<jmercouris> It may be helpful to note that Hunchentoot is incorrect German
<no-defun-allowed> But we were talking about literal hash tables or something? If someone writes a reader macro, my only real demand is that it plays nicely with backquote, so I could write `#h((foo ,foo)).
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<ck_> jmercouris: that's supposed to be german?
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<jmercouris> Its pseudo German
<jmercouris> It is really supposed to be Huenchen which means little chicken
<ck_> Huehnchen, you mean? ah.
<jmercouris> and of course "toot" for fart, chicken fart or something
<jackdaniel> http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Hunchentoot ← this is where the software name came from
<jmercouris> Yes, I know where Edi Weitz named his programs, it doesn't make it any more correct German
<jackdaniel> it is a story of a space-girl known as Drakma :-)
<jmercouris> and it bothers me every single time I see it
<jackdaniel> what makes you think the name is not made up but rather a mispelled german word?
<ck_> I never even made that connection.
<jmercouris> Ah yes, just like the english word Fuk, which is of course not made up, just sounds and looks exactly like another similar word
<jmercouris> it means to grace another with deep love
<jmercouris> so if you tell someone to go "Fuk" themselves, you are wishing them very well
<ck_> well, I'm very sorry you're bothered by the name of some software
<no-defun-allowed> Well, good luck tracing the etymology of the name Hunchentoot. Good night everyone.
<jackdaniel> to "Fuk" in Polish means to blab
<jmercouris> that's hilarious :D
<jackdaniel> nie fucz, nie fukaj
<ck_> 'infart' in swedish means driveway! woah!
<jackdaniel> neverless it is offtopic, so I'll disengage
<no-defun-allowed> Oh, in Greek, φακο means torch (or something like that, Greek school didn't grab my attention), yet it sounds similiar to something you would tell someone you don't like to do.
<no-defun-allowed> *φακός
<jmercouris> no it doesn't at all, I speak Greek and they sound very distinctly different to me
<no-defun-allowed> It did when I was eight and I learnt what it was called.
<no-defun-allowed> Anyways, have fun discussing how a fictional giant spider got named, how bottom-typed arrays work or something like that. Night.
<ck_> nn, no-defun-allowed
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<schweers> I have kyotocabinet on disk (think of an on-disk hashtable), which contains data in a binary format. I have a few functions to recreate lisp objects from this store. Is there a simple way to use the debugger on such an object?
<schweers> I basically want a function which will open this store, retrieve an object from it and point the slime inspector to this objejct. Is this possible?
<shka__> schweers: do you have some binding to this kyoto cabinet?
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<schweers> yes. Actually I should have left the kyotocabinet out of this altogether. I have a short function which creates an object from disk. I want to inspect this object.
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<schweers> Basically I want to abuse the slime inspector to help me build a data-debugging tool.
<shka__> schweers: there was something about that in slime manual, give me a second
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<schweers> I currently have this code: https://pastebin.com/CvRzn51F
<shka__> schweers: could you please try (swank:inspect-in-emacs "string") ?
<schweers> I want to inspect DBM-OBJECT. The problem is, that for some reason this variable is not available in the debugger.
<shka__> schweers: optimize debug 3
<schweers> "string" being the variable/object/expression in question?
<schweers> yeah, I have that already (at least I should)
<shka__> schweers: "string" being string literal
<shka__> you can pass any object to it though
<schweers> YEAH! That did it!
<schweers> Thank you very much
<shka__> you are welcome, glad i could help
<schweers> For future reference, where did you find it?
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<shka__> schweers: swank backend.lisp file
<schweers> k, thanks
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<shka__> swank exports useful symbols and has docstings
<shka__> so it is usable
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<shka__> schweers: this kyoto cabinet thing looks pretty dope though
<schweers> I’m not sure what you mean?
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<shka__> schweers: cl-kyoto-cabinet
<schweers> I don’t mean what you mean by “looks pretty dope”
<shka__> how does it work? does it need a server?
<schweers> no, it’s just a library.
<shka__> yeah, that's why i like it
<shka__> it is supposed to be fast, right?
<schweers> They claim that it is very fast. I can’t really compare it to the alternatives, as I have not worked with any other.
<schweers> It does some things which are nice, but which I do not (always) need. It takes good care not to lose or corrupt data.
<schweers> Sometimes I wish I could turn that off.
<schweers> But overall I guess it is okay.
<shka__> hm, i should try it
<shka__> what data types it stores?
<schweers> In general just byte arrays, but it has convinience functions for strings.
<schweers> I used to store strings which contained an sexp, now I use CBOR.
<schweers> both were not exactly my choice.
<shka__> ok sounds about right
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<schweers> I got some weird behaviour regarding concurrency. One cannot use multiple processes if one of them wants to write, and I got some weird behaviour when using multiple threads. I’m not entirely sure what is supposed to happen, so this could very well be by design.
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* dmiles is working on a system in which most all structures and class properties are backed by a database instead of ram
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* dmiles though is using ram to do it as the database is prolog
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<hortiel> hi
<pjb> hi
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<hortiel> pjb: how is she bang a machine code or binary? I am not talking about UNIX permissions lol....
<hortiel> it's an interpreter question
<hortiel> just like py2exe how do I "append " a script to an interpreter to get the compiled binary without using a compiler, the new short hand way of converting an interpreter into a compiler!!
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<ober> transpiler
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<Xach> ober: please no!
<edgar-rft> Let's transmutate Lisp code
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<ebrasca> Is it ok to use eql for comparing numbers?
<Xach> ebrasca: yes.
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* ebrasca don't undestand why "eql" for numbers instead of "=".
<Xach> ebrasca: = is also ok and has different behavior for non-numbers
<Xach> it depends on the behavior you want in the areas where they differ
<ebrasca> Can you give some example?
<Xach> (eql 1 nil) => false
<Xach> (= 1 nil) => error
<Xach> (eql 1 1.0) => false
<Xach> (= 1 1.0) => true
<Xach> I dare not continue
<ebrasca> I am sure "(unless (not ..." instead of "(when ..." is not ok.
<ebrasca> I don't undestand why people use "(when (not ..." instead of "(unless ..." .
<Xach> ebrasca: i think i have seen and forgotten some rationalization for the practice
<Xach> nearly any practice can be rationalized
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* ebrasca don't undestand.
<carmack> (loop ...) is the macro?
<carmack> macros
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<semz> ebrasca: I sometimes do that because WHEN sounds more natural for optional actions while UNLESS sounds like it is in the ballpark of ASSERT.
<semz> I admit it's kind of silly though
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<pjb> carmack: (if (macro-function 'loop) 'yes 'no)
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<carmack> pjb: thx
<pjb> carmack: well, to be precise (defun is-macro (op) (and (not (special-operator-p op)) (macro-function op)))
<pjb> (defun is-function (op) (and (fboundp op) (not (macro-function op))))
<pjb> In fact, for operators in CL, we could have (and (special-operator-p op) (fboundp op)), so
<pjb> (defun is-function (op) (and (not (special-operator-p op)) (fboundp op) (not (macro-function op))))
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<pfdietz> (= 0.0 -0.0) ==> true
<pfdietz> (eql 0.0 -0.0) ==> false
<pfdietz> In sbcl, at least
<jackdaniel> ebrasca: I somtimes find unless harder to read than when (I'm putting implicit not before the test and then analyze it)
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<jackdaniel> I put it mentally, not by modifying the actual code
<Lycurgus> both T in ACL
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<Lycurgus> CCL same as sbcl
<Bike> yeah that's actually pretty specifically defined in the standard
<jackdaniel> it is permittable for implementation to not have a signed 0, then eql would yield true as well
<Bike> the = is always true, and the eql depends on whether there's a negative zero
<jackdaniel> for numbers there is also similarity rule for sake of hash tables
<jackdaniel> (applies to equal/equalp)
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<drmeister> jackdaniel: Is there a way to tell ECL to compile files to .c/.eclh/.data and NOT invoke the C compiler?
<drmeister> Meh - what am I saying - to the code!
<jackdaniel> drmeister: disassemble handles :*-file arguments
<jackdaniel> it doesn't handle pathnames though (it could be easily extended to do that)
<drmeister> Oh - so disassemble does the first pass of compilation but doesn't invoke the C compiler.
<jackdaniel> yes if it is called on a form
<jackdaniel> check out file cmpmain for details
<jackdaniel> in practice right now it works only with lambda, like (disassemble nil '(lambda () whatever))
<jackdaniel> scratch the first argument nil
<drmeister> Right
<jackdaniel> it would be for #'compile
<jackdaniel> how do you handle returned values in multiple-value-prog1?
<jackdaniel> do you cons a structure for them or do something cleverr?
<jackdaniel> clever*
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<jackdaniel> drmeister: ↑
<jackdaniel> from other notes, regarding stack corruption in ECL, if anyone is interested in the cause here it comes: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/513#note_188189573
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<drmeister> Bike is actually working on that right now - he would be better equipped to answer.
<jackdaniel> hum, I thought we were talking on clasp channel, I've got confused for a second :)
<drmeister> Me too!
<drmeister> In bclasp I allocate temporary multiple-values on the stack and save and load to/from that.
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<drmeister> cclasp is a bit more complicated and I'm guessing we do the same thing.
<drmeister> You could use VLA's in ECL couldn't you? That's standard C I think.
<jackdaniel> I'm not sure how that would help with mvp1? consing a result is not a problem (except that it conses of course ;)
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<jackdaniel> pushing onto stack caused the issue I've likned above
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