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<pfdietz>
These automatically update all your packages things seem like a version control nightmare.
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<lukego>
pfdietz: I'm not sure what the context of your comment is exactly, but I think a really interesting point in the design space is dependency sets that update automatically but are also tracked in version control. That way when something somewhere breaks you can 'git bisect' to find the problem. I can sometimes do this with nixpkgs dependencies, https://github.com/lukego/blog/issues/17
<pfdietz>
It was referring to an earlier discussion here of Ultralisp. Your comment is interesting and useful, thank you.
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<easye>
lukego: Having a bisect command available to use is always very handy. hg bisect works well for me!
<lukego>
hey easye :-)
* easye
waves.
<lukego>
cool to see all the ABCL activity on my twitter stream lately :)
<easye>
Yeah, I'm try to be more social in my hacking.
<easye>
s/try/trying/
<easye>
lukego: been following your SNAP work avidly.
<easye>
s/SNAP/SNAB/
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<lukego>
I'm just thinking about how to take that to the next level now. Current crazy idea is a Lisp-based DSL for writing network dataplane applications that transpiles them into various targets e.g. CPU/GPU/FPGA. So have to learn a bit about CUDA and HDL now... which is a fun problem to have :)
<easye>
Know of any good hosted CUDA solutions? I don't need my aging equipment's fans wheezing around me.
* easye
been meaning to get to GPU/FPGA now that I have a reasonable CFFI working in abcl-1.6.0
<lukego>
EC2 seems to be a one stop shop for CPU + GPU + FPGA now. GCE does GPU at least too. Just recently realized that Amazon F1 FPGA instances provide ~1Tbps of CPU<->FPGA I/O bandwidth (8 x PCIe3 x8) and so it should be fine for doing really high-end development. $13/hour but I think you'd only run the big iron about 1% of the time during dev anyway.
<lukego>
I have a bunch of servers full of e.g. 100Gbps network cards at home but I think I'll move my testing over to EC2 with FPGAs pretending to be NICs under heavy load. Safe the noisy boxes at home and their care and feeding.
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<easye>
lukego: exactly.
<easye>
I deliberately left all my boxes with cables in New York...
<lukego>
I moved from Switzerland to Sweden recently and was tempted to leave the boxes behind, but they ended up being pretty easy in a moving van.
<pfdietz>
Heat dissipation can get annoying, never mind the noise.
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<easye>
But it can be cold in Sweden, if you have power.
<lukego>
pfdietz: yeah. I had all the servers in a cool cellar before, but at my new digs I don't know if I'll be able to keep them happy in summer.
<puchacz>
hi, is it possible to log all sbcl output to a file (but keep printing it as usual)?
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<sugarwren>
mit-scheme appears to support threads (it has at least the procedures current-thread, thread? and create-thread) but I can't find any further information in its docs
<drmeister>
I've been working on figuring out how to make sourdough bread - that's my fifth loaf and the first one that looks good.
<drmeister>
This time I tried scalding 1/3rd of the flour and my starter "Wheatley" was especially precocious this week.
<Bike>
sugarwren: this channel is for common lisp. try #scheme
<drmeister>
That's just a bit of backstory - I had meant to post that to #clasp where we talk about developing of the Clasp implementation of Common Lisp and baking.
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<lukego>
drmeister: gorgeous.
<sugarwren>
Bike, sure, thanks
<drmeister>
lukego: Thank you - I'm feeling pretty good about it.
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<drmeister>
A little more on topic...
<drmeister>
Has anyone generated Microsoft Excel spreadsheets by some other approach than CSV files using Common Lisp?
<Shinmera>
The microsoft formats are insane, so probably not.
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<drmeister>
Yeah - I've been searching the interwebs - it doesn't look good. I'm looking into the XML formats now.
<lukego>
drmeister: I'd check for related R packages for reference.
<flip214>
drmeister: the xlsx is just a zip container... and sheet1.xml looks readable.
<flip214>
or some remote control for libre office, if that's too bothersome
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<flip214>
--accept=accept-string Specifies a UNO-URL connect-string to create a UNO acceptor through which other programs can connect to access the API.
<_death>
looks like it's geared for reading and not writing, though
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<knegg>
hello/
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<Lycurgus>
moin knegg
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<beach>
knegg: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
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<knegg>
yes. im noob :D
<beach>
I see. Welcome.
<knegg>
im reading a book on neural networks and LISP came up and im reading about homoiconicity. i have some basic programming knowledge and am trying to figure out what the specialty of that homoiconicity is.
<knegg>
thx :D
<knegg>
but i joined the channel before i can even formulate my questions properly
<beach>
It means you can easily manipulate code as if it were ordinary data in the language.
<beach>
We do that in macro expanders for instance.
<Lycurgus>
actually that's the big selling point of another lisp
<Lycurgus>
(this channel is common lisp oriented)
<Lycurgus>
that other being clojure
<knegg>
is lisp just by accident good for ai or was it designed for this?
<Lycurgus>
traditionally it was the lang of choice
<Lycurgus>
but a generation or two have elapsed since then
<Lycurgus>
i.e human not programmer
<pfdietz>
The channel for lisp family languages in general is ##lisp
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<knegg>
can maybe tell me what this example does that is given in this video?
<knegg>
(eval a) seems like a command that returns the "variable" and not the value?
<mfiano2>
That is Clojure code. This channel if for Common Lisp.
<knegg>
and the grey text is to explain what the program does or contains internally?
<mfiano2>
is*
<knegg>
oh.. he says this is lisp and the next screen is clojure
<beach>
knegg: Lots of people would like their language to be "a Lisp".
<beach>
knegg: But there is not widespread agreement as to what "Lisp" means.
<beach>
knegg: We avoid the debate here by sticking to Common Lisp.
<knegg>
ok, ill head over to the other channel then. thx for the quick reaction though :]
<beach>
knegg: There are no "commands" in Common Lisp. EVAL is a function that that takes data that represents code and executes that data as if it were a program.
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<knegg>
hmm.. data that represents code. if something is code then its code unless i would mark it as text in vba (sorry - i said basic :])
<puchacz>
knegg, you may want to see the presentation "clojure for java programmers", where the clojure author explains what "code is data" means in lisp world
<beach>
knegg: In Common Lisp, the READ function turns a sequence of characters into a data structure. Whether that data structure represents code or not depends on what other program is processing it.
<beach>
knegg: For example, if it is further processed by the compiler, then the compiler assumes that the data structure represents code.
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<knegg>
im thinking :D
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<beach>
knegg: Most languages do not expose the representation of code, other than as a sequence of characters.
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<beach>
knegg: Common Lisp has a defined way of turning that sequence of characters into code represented as nested linked lists, symbols, numbers, etc.
<beach>
knegg: Then, everything else in the language is defined in terms of those nested lists.
<knegg>
the big point must be that the following java code (in that video) for that simple example is about 3 pages long.
<beach>
I wouldn't know. Sorry.
<knegg>
i think i need to get what that code is doing. he defines a function that sets variable b (which obviously is not a variable because it is lisp/clojure)to 15. then by that function (eval a) he returns that "variable" and for the program this is both the variable and the value 15 ? am i getting it right so far?
<Bike>
you're talking about (setf a '(setf b 15)) and (eval a)?
<knegg>
yes
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<beach>
knegg: I didn't watch the video. But let's do the analogous thing in Common Lisp, to be on topic. If I type (defparameter a '(defparameter b 15)) for instance...
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<Bike>
that sets the value of the variable A to be a list of three elements SETF, B, 15. then (eval a) means the value of A, that is, that list, is passed to the eval function, which treats the list as code and performs what it says to do, namely (setf b 15), which sets the value of the variable B to be 15
<knegg>
wait i can upload a screenshot of it
<Bike>
the example in the video actually is common lisp.
<beach>
knegg: I think we should stick to Common Lisp.
<beach>
knegg: But Bike has the right interpretation of it.
<Bike>
there's no function definitions involved here, just to be clear
<Bike>
A is set to a list, not a function
<Bike>
i have no idea what you mean by "obviously is not a variable because it is lisp"
<Bike>
also, in his notation here, the return values are indicated in the comments. (eval a) will return 15, not the symbol B
<Bike>
he doesn't write the return values of the setfs or evals
<knegg>
ahh
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<Bike>
do you get it now?
<knegg>
so you call a is variable?
<knegg>
and its value is a list
<knegg>
the 2nd line in the code does what? call/execute the list?
<Bike>
well, we might more specifically say A is a symbol that names a variable, but we often conflate the name with the variable
<knegg>
i think i need the terminology as well if i am to understand
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<knegg>
so setf is what? a command or a definition for the symbol A?
<beach>
knegg: It's the assignment operator.
<knegg>
and then calling up that symbol will go through the list
<Bike>
(setf foo bar) is like "foo = bar" in C or whatever
<Bike>
i don't remember enough visual basic to tell you the syntax there. "foo := bar" maybe
<knegg>
eval is a function?
<Bike>
eval is a function, yes.
<jackdaniel>
setf is an operator which sets places (place is more general than a variable behind a symbol
<jackdaniel>
)
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<beach>
jackdaniel: So is = in C. :)
<Bike>
friggin lvalues
<beach>
Indeed.
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<beach>
knegg: You can see it as if in C you had a function eval that let you do eval("b = 15"); the result of which would assign 15 to the variable b.
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<knegg>
so 1st line defines what happens when a is called/executed. then 2nd line does that and the variable b is set to value 15. then 2nd line is just "a" which i take the program to run the thing and assign the value 15 to variable b.
<Bike>
no.
<knegg>
ehh that was redundant
<beach>
knegg: Or rather a = "b = 15;", then eval(a);
<Bike>
your framing in terms of "called/executed" is wrong. a variable binding is just a mapping from variables to values.
<knegg>
ok a = b = 15
<Bike>
the quotes are important.
<beach>
knegg: No, a = "b = 15;";
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<Bike>
the first line sets a value of a. the second line just returns the value of a without doing anything.
<knegg>
ok. got it a = "b = 15".
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<Bike>
between lines two and three, B has no defined value, unless it was defined earlier i guess.
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<Bike>
the second line doesn't call or execute anything. it just looks up the value of A.
<knegg>
the ;; and => is indicating what? what i would see when i do somehting line "print a" "print b"?
<Bike>
semicolons (;) start comments
<Bike>
it's saying that if you entered "a" you'd see "(setf b 15)" back
<Bike>
the system prints the value for you.
<knegg>
ok, 2nd line gives me the value of a which is the list i assigned it and 3d line (eval a)gives me not the list like when i let the value of a return but it gives me the 2nd element of the list.
<Bike>
no, like i said, he doesn't indicate the return values of the eval calls.
<Bike>
in this case eval would return 15.
<Bike>
that's because eval would evaluate the list SETF, B, 15, and the assignment returns the value (15)
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<knegg>
(oh.. why does it put 15 in comment text then?)so (eval a)does nothing by itself but b in the next line will return the value for b which is 15? like i would define setf b 15 c 28 and then go (eval a)c it would return 28?
<Bike>
no, eval does everything.
<Bike>
it performs the assignment.
<Bike>
(eval '(setf b 15)) is like you'd just written (setf b 15).
<Bike>
the comment text is something the presenter wrote in.
<Bike>
this isn't like an actual REPL session
<knegg>
you are doing your best mate! but i think i need to actually do a basic lisp tutorial to understand it.
<Bike>
seems likely.
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<akoana>
knegg: I'm too learning Common Lisp, entering the example code into a REPL session is quite instructive... play with the real thing :)
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<knegg>
whats repl? im watching a tutorial on the syntax now. maybe that helps for that simple example already
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<akoana>
knegg: repl = read eval print loop
<akoana>
knegg: when you start a common lisp you it will wait until you enter something and read it
<akoana>
then it will eval it, and print the result
<akoana>
then it starts again (the loop)
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<knegg>
ahh sounds good!
<knegg>
but also sounds like it needs an escape function :D
<akoana>
knegg: entering (quit) will usually terminate your session
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<knegg>
im glad it does. on the recent vba version the alt+ctrl+break doesnt help anymore. had a hard time exiting my latest endless loop :D
<akoana>
knegg: most people use an IDE for programming in Common Lisp (Emacs + Slime + SBCL)
<akoana>
but for first steps you could use clisp only, it is similar to working in a shell
<akoana>
and available in linux and windows
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<akoana>
knegg: portacle (https://portacle.github.io/) has everything you need, it runs on Windows, OS X, and Linux.
<akoana>
knegg: and it is easy to install
<knegg>
ok cool. ill try to understand that concept with minimal effort to be frank because i wanna continue with that book to continue with another book... looking into machine learning took me several days already. its super interesting and i understood the basic stuff but i did not programm any neural networks there either :D
<knegg>
"to be fairly easy to use so that even intermediate Common Lisp programmers" thx man. but.. im a total noob :D
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<knegg>
lol... the video tutorial on lisp ends at min 6:31 with nothing like eval. only having shown "strings", 'symbols t, nil and how calculations are done :D
<akoana>
knegg: hey, using _death's suggestion (cl-mep) you'll have fun and will advance by exploring the examples
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<phoe>
puchacz: fast enough for what
<puchacz>
phoe: most ML is done by wrapping C++ or C libraries in Python, basically - how does it compare, do you know?
<puchacz>
with Matlab being astonishingly slow, and Python C/C++ fast, do you know where does cl-mlep sit?
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<jfb4>
puchacz: what aspect of ML do you need in particular
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<puchacz>
jfb4: I am on a course in a bank, there was just one class as of now, with neural network recognising handwriting digits, honestly I did not check the full curriculum.
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<puchacz>
but I would like to know if a library can "scale" to be used out of the course as well
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<no-defun-allowed>
puchacz: Depends on your compiler, but you should expect fairly close to C.
<puchacz>
I will definitely play with cl-mlep, using sbcl
<no-defun-allowed>
Most of it is number crunching, which can get compiled very well.
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<puchacz>
ok
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