jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.5.4, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
<Josh_2> Morning beach
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<ebrasca> Morning beach , Josh_2!
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<LdBeth> Hello #lisp
<Josh_2> Hey
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<phoe> minion: memo for pfdietz: OK, I have some time again now, so time to work on Lisp things. Would it be okay to mark the LOOP tests that in some way utilize iteration variables in FINALLY as :ansi-spec-problem and add a proper comment there that describes the issue?
<minion> Remembered. I'll tell pfdietz when he/she/it next speaks.
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<pfdietz> (see message from phoe)
<minion> pfdietz, memo from phoe: OK, I have some time again now, so time to work on Lisp things. Would it be okay to mark the LOOP tests that in some way utilize iteration variables in FINALLY as :ansi-spec-problem and add a proper comment there that describes the issue?
<pfdietz> phoe: I am not in charge of that repo. I'm fine with that change, but it's not really my responsibility now.
<jackdaniel> just say a word and you will ,p
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<jackdaniel> will be*
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<phoe> pfdietz: OK, I'll make a PR instead (and bother jackdaniel this way).
<drmeister> Is there any point for PRINT-OBJECT to call-next-method to inherit some of the printing capabilities of base classes?
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<drmeister> Or does every specialized PRINT-OBJECT method have to do everything itself?
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<scymtym> drmeister: a method could do something specific for one value of *PRINT-READABLY* but let the next method handle the other value
<Bike> there are default methods on standard-object and structure-object, if that's what you mean?
<luis> Xach: what's the place to get the save-lisp-and-die t-shirt?
<Xach> luis: i don't know these days, sorry. i think the graphic may need to be recreated or reimagined and made into new shirts
<Xach> my shirts wore out :(
<luis> Xach: a bunch of stores have it. Not sure where they got it from.
<Xach> i have nothing to do with them (that i know of)
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<pfdietz> I have a lisp T-shirt from Franz. Probably doesn't fit me anymore.
<pfdietz> BTW, many of these t-shirt places are happy to sell copyright-violating product. They're protected by the DMCA if they take down the shirts (which were uploaded by third parties) when notice is given.
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<dlowe> luis: if you're looking for lisp swag, there's this too: https://www.zazzle.com/store/lisplove
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<_death> using dmca to take down shirts.. noted
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<dra> Hi.
<Josh_2> Hey
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<drmeister> scymtym, Bike: Thank you.
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<Traust> minion: registration, please?
<minion> The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=da8abb60 will be valid until 15:45 UTC.
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<Traust> minion: registration, please?
<minion> The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=da8abb60 will be valid until 15:45 UTC.
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<Xach> Why do people do that?
<Xach> Is there a website that instructs them to do so?
<dlowe> presumably the gitlab hosted at common-lisp.net does so
<pjb> yes.
<dlowe> as an anti-spam measure
<Xach> It sucks and I wish it were different. Private messages, maybe.
<dlowe> it might be preferable to give instructions for private messages
<pjb> Note: the spammers know how to use private messges.
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<Shinmera> Ah, yeah, since the channel is +r it at least requires nickserv auth if it's in the channel.
<Shinmera> Still, a dedicated +r channel for the registration would be much better.
<ck_> that's something the bot could find out for private messages as well, couldn't it?
<dlowe> the spammers know how to use channel messages too, I'm sure
<dlowe> assuming they do
<dlowe> a link given by minion seems like a special enough case that it wouldn't be caught by automated systems
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<pjb> Until they catch up.
<Shinmera> ultimately any set of instructions a human can follow can be automated, it only needs to be sufficiently obtuse to catch most spam.
<pjb> And those registration requests are irritating enough that I already started to design a bot to wreak havoc with them!
<Josh_2> oof
<dlowe> Shinmera: sure, but you have to be noticed first. My blog had an anti-spam measure that consisted of typing the word "elbow" into a field.
<dlowe> with instructions to type "elbow" into the field
<Shinmera> dlowe: That's my argument. This seems excessive.
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<Xach> I object only to random one-time visitors putting stuff in #lisp.
<_death> doesn't clnet has its own irc channel?
<_death> *have
<Shinmera> It does.
<flip214> but there's no minion in there
<_death> seems more logical to tell minion to join there then
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<_death> since it's not a user-specific link, could just set clnet's channel topic
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<sjl> If I have something like (restart-case (foo) (do-something () :test my-condition-p (something ...)) is there a way that the body of the restart (the (something...)) can get the condition object?
<sjl> I know I can make it take an argument (restart-case (foo) (do-something (condition) :test my-condition-p (something condition)) and then invoke it with (invoke-restart (find-restart ...) condition)
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<sjl> But then that doesn't work when I try to select it from the debugger interactively
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<sjl> I could do something horrifying like having a (let (condition)) around the entire thing and setf'ing condition in the :test
<sjl> but that seems... bad
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<pjb> sjl: the way to get the condition, is to use handler-case or handler-bind.
<sjl> Right, but if I don't use those, I want to still be able to interactively invoke the restart
<sjl> But in order to actually do the useful thing, it needs to have access to the condition object
<pjb> For example: (restart-case (handler-bind ((error #'(lambda (condition) (do-something-with-condition condition) (invoke-restart 'my-restart 7)))) (do-something-possibly-bad)) (my-restart (&optional v) v))
<sjl> ... You both saw me say I know I can do it with (invoke-restart) right?
<pjb> If you insist to process the condition in the restart, you can do something like:
<pjb> (restart-case (handler-bind ((error #'(lambda (condition) (invoke-restart 'my-restart condition)))) (do-something-possibly-bad)) (my-restart (&optional c) (when c (do-something-with-condition c))))
<sjl> I want it to work when there are no handlers bound, when invoked interactively through the debugger
<pjb> You want magic.
<pjb> You are the magician=programer, you need to use handler-bind to get the condition!
<pjb> If you want to hide it, write a macro, just like any good magician!
<pjb> Casting Spels in Lisp Conrad Barski, M.D. http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html
<_death> maybe you can use *debugger-hook*
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<forty-two> I can't quite figure out whether or not the append in the last line can be replaced with nconc https://pastebin.com/raw/0MbCscK8
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<buffergn0me> sjl: Doesn't look that awful to me. I do agree that condition system introspection is lacking. Something like (signalled-condition) would work. Also there is no dual to find-restart.
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<tfb> forty-two: I don't think it can, naively anyway: the results of remove-if &c may share structure with their arguments (and, really, may be their arguments)
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<pjb> fouric: it can, since you are concatenating lists that you have built yourself.
<pjb> s/fouric/forty-two/
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<pjb> forty-two: actually, remove-if and remove-if-not don't necessarily return fresh lists.
<pjb> forty-two: you need to use something else to be able to use nconc.
<buffergn0me> I am on tfb's side. Shared structure is one of many reasons why vectors are better than lists.
<pjb> forty-two: for example: (loop for x in others if (filter x) collect into left else collect into right finally (nconc (qsort left) (list middle) (qsort right)))
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<pjb> forty-two: of course, you would have used that loop in the first place, so nconc would have already been possible. The main error is to use remove-if and remove-if-not which processes the list twice, calling filter on each element twice…
<tfb> my guess is that nconc is actually safe here but the reasons are subtle
<tfb> ... at least too subtle for me
<pjb> tfb: it you trust implementations to return actually a copy and not a list sharing a tail with the original!
<dlowe> my view is to ignore nconc and its ilk if there's even the slightest doubt
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<pjb> Notably, since you use remove-if-not and remove-if, you could share a tail in at least one of left or right, so nconc would break.
<dlowe> for one thing, destructive list operations could screw with quoted lists
<tfb> pjb: no, you're right, I think it's not safe, sorry
<pjb> If you use your own loop and avoid the double processing, there's no doubt.
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<dlowe> why waste the cognitive effort to figure it out
<pjb> for efficiency :-)
<tfb> dlowe: because you would have saved whole microseconds on a pdp-11
<dlowe> tfb: exactly
<forty-two> CLHS says remove, remove-if, remove-if-not are non-destructive. If any elements need to be removed, the result will be a copy.
<tfb> forty-two: but if no elements are removed no copy may be done
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<Bike> also if the tail of the list doesn't need anything removed it can be shared with the result, so the result is not entirely a copy
<Bike> like pjb said
<forty-two> The result of remove may share with sequence
<pjb> Implementation seem to implement strictly the spec there. But indeed, you could get () (cdr others) or (cdr others) ().
<forty-two> doesn't say anything about remove-if, remove-if-not sharing with sequence
<dlowe> if you really want a copy you can call copy-list
<pjb> for example, on: (qsort (list 1 2 3 4 5))
<Bike> i don't see any reason to believe remove can share structure but not the others. that would be pretty arbitrary, wouldn't it?
<pjb> Indeed.
<forty-two> bike: yes, it seems arbitrary.
<Bike> ecl and clasp implement remove-if(-not) using remove
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<forty-two> thanks everyone!
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<phoe> Xach: you could let ehuelsmann know at #common-lisp.net that minion should perhaps have a separate channel for gitlab registrations
<phoe> I remember that he had something in common with implementing this in minion in the first place
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<phoe> and by the common thing I don't just mean lisp
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<Xach> /win 3
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<Lycurgus> so you use irssi
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<Xach> sorry!
<jackdaniel> /quit
<phadthai> Lycurgus: or xchat, or hexchat, or epic, or ircii, or... any client supporting those commands :)
* phadthai checks the status of bitchx
<Lycurgus> maybe, on the gui ones, I just use the controls
<Xach> I'm sorry I don't use the clim irc program. The name escapes me.
<Xach> beirc?
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<jackdaniel> Xach: yes
<jackdaniel> but it needs some work
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<Xach> bework
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