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<matzy_>
common lisp has to be the strangest language i've ever learned. i love it
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<no-defun-allowed>
Never tried FORTH?
<matzy_>
(note that I gave up on haskell because the installtion process alone on linux was insane)
<matzy_>
i thought quicklisp was a bit outdated the first few times i used it, but hey, it gets the job done
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<ahungry>
Some would view the lack of version pinning in ql as a problem, but I like that it changes the implicit contract between packagers and users from "Hey, we're going to push BC breaks all the time and just do a major version bump", to something more like "we avoid breaking BC at all costs"
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<aeth>
ahungry: Which would be perfectly fine, but that means that in any higher order function, it should be expected to use keyword arguments with &allow-other-keys so there's no future breakage and there's no real way to enforce that except maybe generating a random nonsense key
<aeth>
If I'm unclear: if your API expects a function somewhere (even in a macro, not just higher order functions) it should use keywords, and the user should expect to have to use &allow-other-keys so future updates don't break it
<aeth>
I suppose another alternative is to use one struct/standard-object/list/hash-table/whatever for that
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<ebrasca>
Hello beach!
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<purpur>
Hi all. I tried the rosettacode.org example for the primitive version of bubble-sort and it just goes straight to something like an infinite loop for a simple list like "(bubble-sort (list 1 8 7 5 6 0 7 3 4))".
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<no-defun-allowed>
Maybe it's just terribly slow? Random access to lists is slow, and bubble sort runs in O(n^2) time.
<ck_>
purpur: try handing in a symbol instead. (defparameter my-list (list 1 8 7 5 6 0 7 3 4)) (bubble-sort my-list)
<no-defun-allowed>
Though I think that could be much faster by using loop correctly.
<decent-username>
Is there a way to redefine a structure without starting a new REPL? I've always simple avoided the problem that way.
<ck_>
decent-username: how about uninterning the symbols it generates?
<decent-username>
tried that
<decent-username>
(uninter 'keyframe)
<decent-username>
(unintern 'keyframe)
<Shinmera>
just use classes instead
<decent-username>
LOL, that wasn't the question.
<decent-username>
It needs to be efficient. animations need fast data structures.
<phadthai>
you'll need to recompile anything that depends on that structure, as unlike for clos, accesses may be very optimized as memory offsets
<Shinmera>
structure redefinition is undefined, so
<Shinmera>
classes are plenty fast.
<no-defun-allowed>
Also, bubble-sort does not return the sorted sequence.
<purpur>
no-defun-allowed: I waited like 1:30 min and it just keeps going. It can´t be that slow for a list with less than 10 elements
<ck_>
decent-username: but defstruct defines much more than just the structure
<Shinmera>
have you even shown that they are too slow for what you're doing?
<purpur>
ck_: Thanks, i tried that. It seems to be no improvement though.
<decent-username>
Shinmera: I'm just modifying some code someone else wrote.
<decent-username>
Wouldn't want to change everything.
<Shinmera>
The short answer is you can't
<no-defun-allowed>
purpur: I think the part that decides when to exit is incorrect.
<Shinmera>
The long answer is you need to remove all symbols the structure definition touches, and then recompile everything that used any of those definitions.
<Shinmera>
Which is probably more of a pita than just reloading.
<no-defun-allowed>
I stopped the program and looked at the list, and it was sorted already.
<decent-username>
Shinmera: thanks for the answer. So I'll have to simply start a new REPL. :^D
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<phadthai>
symbols may no longer be relevant in the compiled code using struct elements, even
<phadthai>
except to compile new code
<Shinmera>
that's why you need to recompile.
<phadthai>
yes
<no-defun-allowed>
purpur: Oh, the code is broken with duplicate elements. Try with a comparison function #'<= and it will work.
<purpur>
no-defun-allowed: Thank you very much!
<no-defun-allowed>
But then the code is broken.
<ck_>
oh, I thought you were talking about the bubble-sort-list function. my bad.
<no-defun-allowed>
Note that the comparison function is the opposite of what CL:SORT expects.
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<no-defun-allowed>
And I'm fairly sure merge sort is faster on lists.
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<purpur>
no-defun-allowed: Thank you for the detailed explanation. Iam just starting with lisp and searched for a simple variant of bubble-sort. I will have a look into your code snippet.
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<beach>
no-defun-allowed: Yes, merge sort is probably the fastest on lists.
<lorenzoi>
hello I am having issues with loading quicklisp in sbcl. I have the load script in my sbclrc but it does not load.
<beach>
lorenzoi: Paste your .sbclrc on a pastebin site.
<decent-username>
lorenzoi: A bit more information would be nice. How did you end up in this situation?
<lorenzoi>
I wanted to load up a package in an sbcl repl in my browser, but it said that the package QL did not exist
<decent-username>
lorenzoi: You need to start sbcl with quicklisp. For this you would need to execute "sbcl --load quicklisp.lisp". After doing that you'll need to evaluate "(ql:add-to-init-file)"
<lorenzoi>
I did do that. A long time ago, but now it does not work
<decent-username>
if you encounter any error before that, try to delete you ~/quicklisp directory and follow the procedure that's described at https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/.
<lorenzoi>
my sbclrc
<decent-username>
clear it
<decent-username>
and then do the first thing I've suggested
<decent-username>
Your .sbclrc doesn't look broken though.
<lorenzoi>
now it works
<lorenzoi>
thanks!
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<decent-username>
glad to hear. :)
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<jcowan>
In particular, there is a very nice destructive mergesort on lists that uses zero space (the top-level pairs in the output are a recycled version of the top-level pairs in the input).
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<flip214>
how much slower is sorting a list compared to putting all the elements in a vector and sorting there?
<flip214>
or, perhaps, how many elements does a list have to have so that sorting it becomes slower than using a vector?
<beach>
flip214: Merge sort is special in that, if you sort a vector, it needs additional space, though there is research to make that constant, at the cost of performance.
<beach>
flip214: So merge sort is actually better on a list than on a vector in that respect.
<beach>
flip214: And merge sort is substantially better than (say) quicksort. Plus, it is stable, whereas quicksort is not.
<beach>
flip214: Merge sort on a list is O(n log n).
<beach>
flip214: So there is not an upper bound where it becomes more advantageous to use a vector.
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<Shinmera>
Yeah, all down to the constant factor in your implementation.
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<pfdietz>
jcowan: scheme compilers can reject code that has ill-typed expressions?
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<jcowan>
Yes. (+ 1 "foo") is an error (i.e. undefined behavior) and the undefined behavior can be retroactive to compile time.
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<pfdietz>
The problem with that is that the code could be dead. Is the compiler limited to doing this only only exprs it can show are not dead?
<jcowan>
That's disputed. My opinion is that it is not so limited.
<flip214>
beach: I was thinking about all that CDR traversal, compared to just incrementing a memory address by some multiple of the element size for a vector.
<pfdietz>
Ok, that means some otherwise correct transformations on the code can cause the compiler to fail.
<jcowan>
If you evaluate (+ 1 "foo") THE UNIVERSE WILL NEVER EVEN HAVE EXISTED
<jcowan>
pfdietz: Could you explain further?
<flip214>
as reading the last element in a list is already a O(n) operation.
<beach>
flip214: Merge sort always processes the elements in the order, so there is no such access.
<beach>
flip214: Therefore, list traversal is just a constant overhead for merge sort.
<pfdietz>
Now substitute the value of x into the if form.
<pfdietz>
I'd like to be able to substitute constants into the body of a let and not have to worry about the compiler failing.
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<pfdietz>
The sbcl approach is to translate to an error expression, and issue a warning if it stays around after dead code elimination.
<beach>
Hmm, yeah, code like that could happen after macro expansion, couldn't it?
<pfdietz>
Or inlining.
<Josh_2>
Afternoon all :P
<beach>
Right.
<beach>
Hello Josh_2.
<Xach>
Ha. I was going to add a restart to the quicklisp client to deal with the local archive size problem. But I added it already, 9 years ago.
<flip214>
beach: do you have an idiomatic translation for merge sort? The example I saw does LENGTH and twice SUBSEQ on each recursion, which ought to be expensive
<Bike>
i was going to link the merge sort in sbcl but hoo boy is it not simple
<beach>
The subseq is not twice on the same list.
<beach>
flip214: But it is still the case that it is a constant overhead.
<beach>
flip214: Do the complexity computation, and you will see that it is O(n log n).
<beach>
flip214: If you want to, you can help shka__ investigate merge sort on vectors that do not require O(n) space. Having a good merge sort implementation for vectors would be a very good thing indeed.
<jcowan>
One of my favorite interview questions is to ask people to write code for a procedure that, when passed a number, returns the median of that number and all other numbers previously passed, given that the number of inputs may exceed the capacity of memory.
<Lycurgus>
what if they said no?
<jcowan>
Well, we move on to the next candidate. But I can't say that's ever happened.
<jcowan>
This tests a lot of things, including whether people will ask about constraints on the input and whether they collaborate well (essentially nobody gets the answer right off)
<Lycurgus>
yeah if they could say no they wouldn't be in the position to be quized
<jcowan>
I conjecture that the problem is insoluble if the inputs are arbitrary bignums, but very few people ask right off if there is a limit on the numbers being input.
<Lycurgus>
*quizzed
<beach>
jcowan: Yes, there are several papers on O(1) space merge sort. However, it might be the case that space exists, say on the stack. I would like to see a very that uses O(1) space (with the time overhead that it implies) only if the space is really tight.
<pfdietz>
I was wondering if you'd allow the numbers to be written to external storage.
<jcowan>
No
<Lycurgus>
are these generally candidates with modest experience?
<Bike>
well i don't see how you can compute the median without having all the data, yeah... and if it's constrained to be finite you can just keep counts
<jcowan>
Varying amounts, really.
<Bike>
i wouldn't have thought of that, i don't think
<jcowan>
On the contrary, you just did!
<Bike>
i mean i wouldn't have thought to ask if the input was constrained.
<jcowan>
Ah.
<Lycurgus>
would it occur to you to not quiz someone who obviously didn need it or is that a bogus concept for you, just using judgement?
<Lycurgus>
bogus/alien
<jcowan>
I don't have that much faith in my judgment of obviosity.
<Lycurgus>
ah
<jcowan>
"Exercise caution [...] for the world is full of deceits."
<jcowan>
The stats on candidates who look good on paper but fail the FizzBuzz test are a cautionary tale.
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<pfdietz>
This makes me wonder... is there an online algorithm for median that takes O(1) time per input?
<Lycurgus>
all the more reason to develop powers of discernment, in general you won't be able to quiz
<Josh_2>
The aim should be to look bad on paper and fail the FizzBuzz test /s
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<Lycurgus>
and the quiz can be faked
<Lycurgus>
i can ace ur dumb quiz and then sit on my ass thru whole gig like a lump because you tested me
<Lycurgus>
or rather because you failed to give me the respect and credit my experience warranted
<jcowan>
Oh yes. The point of interviews is to reduce the cost of churn, which is very high and especially for programmers.
<jcowan>
In the restaurant biz it's routine to hire anyone who isn't actually drooling into the food and be prepared to fire them in three days.
* Lycurgus
blows the topic whistle
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<jcowan>
pfdietz: What is an online algorithm?
<Bike>
takes a stream of inputs and outputs as it goes
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<Lycurgus>
dynamically supplied presumably
<jcowan>
ah, my problem asks for that then. Many people know the two-heap strategy, which is defeated by saying the stream may be longer than can be kept in memory.
<Bike>
right.
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<jcowan>
recently it turned out that the candidate had been asked for the two-heap solution in the phone screen before I got to him
<pfdietz>
There is a well-known O(n) algorithm for offline median; my question was whether that can be extended to an online version.
<pfdietz>
And the answer is apparently yes.
<jcowan>
The histogram algorithm is O(1) for both time and space
<jcowan>
however this is not true if the stream is truly unbounded in length because of the bignums in the buckets, so I give candidates that there might be as many as 2^64 inputs
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<Shinmera>
Can we get back to lisp please
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<flip214>
beach: yeah, thanks, I thought as much
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<admich>
hello, I have a problem with clsql, someone of you know howto report bugs? I tried to send an email (as written on README file) on mailing list but the mailing list is down. Then I open an issue on the github repo reported on the README: https://github.com/UnwashedMeme/clsql/issues/10 but until now no feedback
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<thijso>
anyone ever tried to debug ecl lisp code using gdb? Or the other one, lldb I think?
<thijso>
I'm at the point of just giving up and stuffing ecl full of debug_log print statements...
<thijso>
I've compiled it so many times now, it's getting to be routine..
<pfdietz>
When I debug lisp i use TRACE a lot. Some lisps support single stepping; I don't know if ecl does.
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<thijso>
kind of a weird setup, I'm debugging an android app that is segfaulting in ecl_init_module, I don't have a repl to work with yet at that point
<thijso>
so TRACE is not an option
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<thijso>
It's not gdb, it's probably me. I have a working gdb talking to my app on my phone through gdbremote.
<thijso>
I just don't know how to go about getting exactly where the segfault is happening, and what is triggering it
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<Shinmera>
Yay, new Quicklisp release. Finally my new batch of libraries is out.
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<ralt>
yay, horse-html made it
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<thijso>
hmmm... maybe I should figure out if the random crashes running clfswm with newer quicklisp libs is solved. And if not, find out where the problem is...
<thijso>
although... maybe I should focus on the random -- well, not random, actually -- crashes of my android app...
<thijso>
so much to do, so little time...
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