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<phoe>
Implementors of #lisp: do we have anyone proficient with debugging ANSI LOOP? I am trying to fix ANSI-TEST failures on CCL.
<phoe>
One of them is the infamous (loop for x of-type (integer 1 5) from 1 to 5 collect x) that fails on safe code because (setq x 6) is happening behind the scenes.
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<Bike>
you're trying to debug what, the macro?
<Bike>
or the use
<phoe>
the macro
<phoe>
the above code is correct (either that, or ANSI-TEST is broken)
<phoe>
but with declaim optimize speed 3 it fails to run on CCL.
<White_Flame>
"the loop terminates when the variable var passes the value of form2" Sounds like the bug is with the test. The actual variable is supposed to breach past the "to" value
<pjb>
phoe: the implementation needs a hidden loop variable…
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<White_Flame>
hmm, no I think I might be wrong. That's from downto/upto. "to" specifically flags an ending value, not a threshold
<phoe>
I meant a fresh ECL, not CCL, gah it's late
<phoe>
I ask because ECL also uses a modified ANSI LOOP and maybe it has fixed this issue already.
<White_Flame>
"step v.t., n. 1. v.t. (an iteration variable) to assign the variable a new value at the end of an iteration, in preparation for a new iteration."
<White_Flame>
so again, clearly for x from 1 to 5 sets x to 6
<pjb>
(1 2 3 4 5) on "16.1.3"
<phoe>
pjb: so that is fixed over there, hmmm
<phoe>
I will need to analyze ecl sources then
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<beach>
phoe: As I recall, I didn't make that mistake in SICL LOOP.
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<LdBeth>
Hello beach
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<jackdaniel>
phoe: ansi loop is a dwim mess (not portably extensible at that)
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<jackdaniel>
phoe: also I think you mean "MIT LOOP", not "ANSI LOOP", I'm not aware of any LOOP implementation released by ansi comitee ;)
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<jackdaniel>
you may check it in quicklisp-projects repository
<no-defun-allowed>
Right, let's see then.
<no-defun-allowed>
Yep, looks like it is.
<no-defun-allowed>
There is a little typo in the lparallel backend: the word "mailbox" should be replaced with "queue" in the documentation and lambda list in queue-empty-p.
<Cymew>
PR?
<no-defun-allowed>
Done that, but I haven't a clue how long it'll take to go through.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Though this maintainer looks a lot more active then the last one I wrote a PR for.
<no-defun-allowed>
Oh, that last one is about as active according to GitHub ):
<Cymew>
Sad.
<Cymew>
Maintenance fork, maybe?
<no-defun-allowed>
Would it be impolite to "bump" the last one if we haven't gotten a response in six months?
<jackdaniel>
preemptive fork sounds like a plan ,)
<no-defun-allowed>
Maybe I should update the SBCL version in mine, too.
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<Cymew>
A bit stale.
<Cymew>
Looks like a fast moving piece of tech, though. PaaS and cloud in the same sentence.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Does this sound nasty in any way? "I hate to be rude, but it has been six months since I wrote this PR and haven't really gotten a response. It is fairly possible that users of this buildpack have had some troubles compiling programs as a lot of unportable extensions have changed significantly, as well as some portable ones too (uiop for example). Merging this would probably be a good idea."
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<Cymew>
I'd post it.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Alright, thanks.
<jackdaniel>
I've heard that practically everything before ", but" has its meaning reversed ;)
<Cymew>
I'd never heard of Heroku before. Does that mean it has been superceded or that I'm lagging behind? ;)
<jackdaniel>
so I'd skip that part and start with "It has been six …" ,)
<no-defun-allowed>
Cymew: You put code on it, it passes it through a "buildpack" to dump an image, it runs the image. Not the worst serverless architecture I can come up with, but it took some adjustment to get used to.
<no-defun-allowed>
More so because only six languages, none of which I know how to write or wouldn't dare writing a server in, are properly supported and the rest of us just get API specifications.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Those are good, but they don't make for good learning material. Like trying to learn a non-programming language by skimming a dictionary.
<Cymew>
It does fill a niche, I guess.
<no-defun-allowed>
It fills my niche of "host for broke people that want to host servers" fairly well.
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<flip214>
jackdaniel: at :29 you'd only have had a single minute to register anyway ;)
<jackdaniel>
thank you, I thought that it wil lbe useful for hjudt
<shka__>
no-defun-allowed: chill, most of the pull requests are ignored forever
<flip214>
yeah, I just wanted to send that ;)
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<phoe>
jackdaniel: I think so, yes
<no-defun-allowed>
shka__: ):
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<gaqwas>
hello
<jackdaniel>
o/
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<beach>
Hello gaqwas.
<beach>
gaqwas: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
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<gaqwas>
beach, yes, it's my first time here. :)
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<beach>
Welcome! What brings you to #lisp?
<gaqwas>
I've started fiddling around with Common Lisp a few days ago and thought I could learn more by reading what's being discussed here and possibly asking questions now and then.
<beach>
Sounds good.
<gaqwas>
I only started a few days ago but wished I had discovered it twenty years ago...
<gaqwas>
:)
<beach>
I know what you mean.
<jackdaniel>
from what I've been told you'd enjoy plenty of flamewars on the usenet around that time ;)
<gaqwas>
hehe
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* Cymew
shudders
<beach>
gaqwas: What implementation did you choose?
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<gaqwas>
I'm currently toying with Portacle, so SBCL.
<beach>
Also SBCL at least for now. It's a popular choice here.
<gaqwas>
Okay.
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<luis>
SBCL is quite amazing.
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<shidima>
Is there a way to step through my code in emacs with sly / slime?
<shidima>
I set up a trace with sly, but I would like to step through the code line by line if possible
<no-defun-allowed>
STEP might help.
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<shidima>
Just found an artical about that in the cookbook. Will look into it thanks
<no-defun-allowed>
You'll have the best experience with it if you evaluate (declaim (optimize (debug 3) (safety 3) (speed 1))) so all debugging information is preserved and no optimisations that could mess with what you expect to be evaluated are enabled.
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<mabox>
Did ya ideology like at Cristosan.com
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<no-defun-allowed>
Colleen: ramble about ideology
<Colleen>
Couldn't think of anything about ideology.
<no-defun-allowed>
Colleen: ramble about mabox
<Colleen>
Couldn't think of anything about mabox.
<Shinmera>
no-defun-allowed: don't.
* no-defun-allowed
doesn't
<no-defun-allowed>
Someone let their markov chain run off.
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<shka__>
hi
<shka__>
how do i obtain path to the loaded lisp system?
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<asarch>
Hello amigos! ¿Cómo están?
<asarch>
:-)
<ober>
mejor que nada
<asarch>
I found an old copy of my IRC logs of Hexchat
<asarch>
¡Qué bien ober!
<ober>
what was your nickname then?
<asarch>
However, it's a little bit out of date (for almost a year)
<asarch>
The same one
<asarch>
Would you mind to repeat everything we have chat so far?
<asarch>
JK :-P
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<asarch>
My question was: how did Lisp do the low-level coding for its Lisp machines? With opcodes or directly with S-Expressions?
<ebrasca>
asarch: Hola
<asarch>
¡Bandaaa!
<asarch>
:-)
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
asarch: there are logs in the topic
<fiddlerwoaroof>
:)
<asarch>
Yeah, I know. I just was kidding :-P
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<ricman>
hello, Im a newbie with both irc and lisp, I was wondering. Is there a way in common lisp to get help about the standard library? something like (help "list")
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<LdBeth>
Or simply remove the entry of the string, if no new symbol is supplemented
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
I wish packages supported renaming imports
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
You can use symbol-macros, I guess, but it'd be nice to be able to resolve conflicts between imports by renaming one of them inside a package
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<no-defun-allowed>
Then symbol names would change between packages, which would be a bit odd.
<no-defun-allowed>
(Well, that's the point, but if you look at symbols as interned strings, then you have to wonder what string you're interning.)
<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: Depends on how you see it. The way I'd do "renaming" is to simply introduce a new concept or something, so the symbol foo:bar "refers to" baz:quux in some sense. I guess care would have to be taken because it would probably just inherit references so macros expecting the symbol baz:quux must get the symbol baz:quux instead of the "renamed" bar (i.e. foo:bar)
<LdBeth>
Maybe there’s a chance have this feature in SICL
<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: but essentially, the object being referred to by baz:quux would now also be referred to by foo:bar, for all types of objects (functions, variables, etc.)
<White_Flame>
readtables support SET-SYNTAX-FROM-CHAR which lets you map 1 character's functionality in an "imported" readtable to a different character in your readtable, so there's some precedent for that sort of functionality
<White_Flame>
the biggest question is what would the SYMBOL-NAME be?
<White_Flame>
likely, the name of my-package::foo (imported from other-package:bar) would be "BAR"
<no-defun-allowed>
LdBeth: It could, but currently a symbol name is just held in the slot %name, which probably doesn't have multiple values.
<White_Flame>
the printer would probably be able to show the local name, if you're in my-package
<aeth>
White_Flame: Imo, it should have the new symbol name, and you just have to be aware that it won't work with some macros. If it's a foo it's "foo". What's inherited is the references to e.g. the functions or macros, so it's a zero-cost alias (instead of e.g. making a trivial function that just calls the old function)
<no-defun-allowed>
And I have to wonder how the printer would handle it too. Would it favour the renamed -- hey, don't read my mind please.
<LdBeth>
no-defun-allowed: cl lexicon solve this problem by implement another layer of modules system
<LdBeth>
So the symbol name stays consistent
<White_Flame>
aeth: then you're not actually importing the symbol itself, but making a new one, whose value in any namespace needs to map to the other symbol
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I wouldn't want to rename the referenced symbol, just have the reader map a certain name in the current package to the imported symbol
<White_Flame>
right
<LdBeth>
See the link I gave
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Alternatively, the symbol could have a hashtable of package->name
<aeth>
White_Flame: Right. So if new-package::foo refers to old-package:bar, then it's still the symbol new-package::foo with the symbol-name "FOO" instead of "BAR" it's just that it inherits any object referred to by old-package:bar. Ideally, keeping things in sync so a redefinition of #'old-package:bar updates #'new-package::foo
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
I wouldn't want that because I don't want the new package to be "in control"
<fiddlerwoaroof>
this handles the case where I want to have both cl:+ and matrix-math:+ in my current package without package prefixes
<aeth>
I don't see what you mean. With my proposal, you'd just alias matrix-math:+ to m+ or whatever, and (m+ m1 m2) will work as expected. If symbol-name of e.g. m= is "=" instead of "M=" for matrix-math:= then you could do this: (loop with x m= 1 ...) and that's absurd
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
I don't want aliasing to mess with the symbol-name because that makes the symbol-name of a symbol depend on the current set of loaded packages
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<aeth>
right
<fiddlerwoaroof>
As far as your case goes, we'd either have to respecify the behavior of loop or say "don't do stupid things"
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
The way loop handles its keywords is already a bit weird, I'd be fine with either requireing (loop with x := 1) or requiring that the keywords be in the cl package
<fiddlerwoaroof>
e.g. (loop cl:with x cl:= 1)
<no-defun-allowed>
So, I'm using split-sequence to split a string with 100,000 lines, and Clozure is about 4x slower at splitting and I believe that's the slowest part of my program now. Is there anything I can do to split faster?
<aeth>
probably
<aeth>
split-sequence is designed for general purpose use
<LdBeth>
Do use read-sequence
<aeth>
If e.g. split-sequence does bounds checking, then making a function with a type declaration with your exact string type (including the length) could speed things up. Or doing a length check and then turning safety off locally around the iteration (assuming that you can do that in your implementation)
<no-defun-allowed>
Using a string input stream and read-line is barely faster.
<aeth>
Oh, also inlining the string-splitting function (even if it's large) would have a similar effect of removing the bounds check if done right
<aeth>
Essentially specificizing generic code.
<aeth>
You could also just not split strings, working with :start and :end, which nearly every string/sequence function takes in, if your specific problem permits that.
<aeth>
(Or subseq once, at the very end.)
<aeth>
If you're reading the string from a file or the network, you could try working in it as bytes instead of as characters, too.
<aeth>
(i.e. octets)
<no-defun-allowed>
Hm.
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
no-defun-allowed: I got tired of split-sequence being slow and implemented my own split
<aeth>
fiddlerwoaroof: a while ago or recently? split-sequence got a big rewrite based on conversations in #lisp maybe a few months ago or so. earlier this year iirc
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I dunno, I also don't like s-s's API
<no-defun-allowed>
Oh, I should test cl-strings as well. The name would suggest they know some string things.