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<LdBeth>
no-defun-allowed: maybe the only viable one is ecl
<no-defun-allowed>
LdBeth: Maybe. The ECL (well, C) compiler is bog slow though.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Now, if I have a generic function with method combination PROGN, what can I do to allow one method to skip the rest of the rest of the methods?
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<no-defun-allowed>
Or rather, how can I not call the methods if some precondition is true?
<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<no-defun-allowed>
Good morning beach!
<Josh_2>
Mornin' beach
<no-defun-allowed>
I tried to conditionally call-next-method in an :around method but I don't think that worked right.
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<mfiano2>
They are all called, or none at all. You must put any such logic in the primary methods.
<no-defun-allowed>
Fair enough then.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Might be time to meet DEFINE-METHOD-COMBINATION. I like my protocol too much.
<space_otter>
hello
<beach>
Hello space_otter.
<beach>
no-defun-allowed: I think there is more than one library that does that already.
<beach>
no-defun-allowed: Xof wrote one I think.
<mfiano2>
I have a ~30kloc codebase I've been working on for a few months that makes heavy use of PROGN combination, and I feel your pain. If such a library exists, I'd be interested in taking a gander myself.
<beach>
space_otter: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
<space_otter>
yep
<beach>
Great. What brings you to #lisp?
<space_otter>
i've been trying to make sbcl spit out SSE instructions. it works for floats, but not integers
<mfiano2>
Sadly, "Xof" isn't a very useful search term and cannot find his public repositories or any associated Lisp user.
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<beach>
I found "Generalizers: New Metaobjects for Generalized Dispatch" by Christophe Rhodes, Jan Moringen, and David Lichteblau
<beach>
There is also "Filtered Dispatch" by Pascal Costanza and Charlotte Herzeel.
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<space_otter>
to be specific, this produces an SSE2 ADDSD instruction: (defun vadd (a b) (declare (type (simple-array double-float *) a b)) (map 'vector #'+ a b)), but substituting (signed-byte 8) doesn't produce any SSE instruction
<beach>
space_otter: Did you discuss this with the SBCL maintainers?
<space_otter>
nope I came here first
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<no-defun-allowed>
There would probably be people with better knowledge about SBCL internals in #sbcl. Most are probably here too, but they probably check #sbcl more for that kind of question.
<no-defun-allowed>
Though I'm sure d-m-c has some more stuff to throw at me. This is mostly just the OR example in the CLHS.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
no-e
<fiddlerwoaroof>
no-defun-allowed: you could put a (catch 'exit (call-next-method)) in an around method and then (throw 'exit)
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
(throw 'exit nil)
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<no-defun-allowed>
Sure. I just wanted :around to make more sense.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I think I misunderstand what you're trying to do
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
My point was that the method that wanted to stop execution could do the throw
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
And then any other methods that would normally follow it wouldn't run
<no-defun-allowed>
Right.
<no-defun-allowed>
I'm trying to allow :around methods to prevent the calling of all primary methods.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I see, I did misunderstand :)
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<mfiano2>
The filtered-functions paper sounds familiar. I think I read this years ago. It was still interesting though. Thanks! One issue I have is their use of keyword symbols to designate filtering functions. I am hoping that is not a restriction of the reference implementation.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
The filtered-function idea is really cool
<fiddlerwoaroof>
no-defun-allowed: I'm surprised putting a condition in :around didn't work
<fiddlerwoaroof>
If you have a code sample you're willing to share, I'd be interested to look at it
<mfiano2>
Ah my concerns are mostly lifted, since the filter designator is confined to the package qualified generic function anyway.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
As I remember, you define a function that maps the arguments to a dispatch value and that value is used, right?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
The issue I had with that package is you had to :USE closer-common-lisp instead of cl to make it work portably
<mfiano2>
Yeah, something like (:filters (:dispatch-name #'filter-func)) within a defgeneric-like form
<mfiano2>
missing a closing paren there, because IRC is great
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Yeah, it's cool how we can get Clojure's multimethods as a library :)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
When I write Clojure, I always get annoyed whenever I try to use multimethods
<mfiano2>
Yeah. I was always fond of that about Clojure. About the only thing to be honest.
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
I'd like to have core.async and a couple other things in CL
<mfiano2>
Ugh, why :use? That is something I don't like to do. I reserve it for very special situations and prefer not to :use anything other than :cl in most situations.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
mfiano2: the CLOSER-COMMON-LISP package is basically the CL package with some functions replaced to be more consistent cross-implementations
<mfiano2>
Though I guess this is a special situation (extending the language or writing a new language)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
You could probably get away with shadowing DEFGENERIC/DEFMETHOD
<mfiano2>
Yeah. I'll have to play around with this. It's getting me excited (even though I knew it existed already)
<mfiano2>
I share all of beach's opinions on :USE is all. I think he has mentioned why quite a few times.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Yeah
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
I never :USE anymore, except when I want to embed my own lisp
<fiddlerwoaroof>
And I get annoyed when I find my old code that does :USE
<mfiano2>
Yeah, same. It really makes a mess of things, both coming back to old code at a later date, and readers of my code trying to make sense of things.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I occasionally make an exception for a couple "well-known" libraries
<fiddlerwoaroof>
particularly alexandria and serapeum, since I use them almost everywhere, but lately I've just used IMPORT-FROM for the constructs I care about
<mfiano2>
I don't. I actually started employing PLN earlier this year to combat that very exception I was making. I'd rather be almost-portable, but portable enough, than to not know where symbols are coming from at a quick glance.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I use Lispworks frequently enough that I avoid PLN
<mfiano2>
Fair enough :)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I did contact their support staff to request that they implement the "standard"
<mfiano2>
I sort of wish the standard kept the hierarchy packages from the old days. But we get what we got.
<mfiano2>
hierarchical*
<mfiano2>
Good, did they respond at all?
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Yeah, they said they were looking into it
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<mfiano2>
Nice, in time I guess. I think PLN is making some good progress lately. We're up to 5 implementations so far, anyway.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I wonder if it could be implemented via an ASDF extension
<fiddlerwoaroof>
i.e. parse the defpackage form and then rewrite the source file before compiling/loading it
<fiddlerwoaroof>
It's not ideal, but it'd be useful for making it portable
<mfiano2>
It can't. It needs implementation support
<mfiano2>
It gets complicated coercing the reader and getting print-read consistency
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Well, I think my scheme would guarantee a sort of print-read consistency
<fiddlerwoaroof>
The PLNs wouldn't exist at all to the implementations that don't support them
<fiddlerwoaroof>
The drawback would be that SLIME wouldn't really work for development
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<mfiano2>
Yeah, I think there's quite a few edge cases in that scheme, such as requiring files to be specified in the ASD. I have seen and have written systems that LOAD arbitrary files at runtime not tracked by ASDF, too.
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<thijso>
Is there a way to 'apply' 1 pass of macroexpansion on a lisp source file? I see examples of how to macroexpand 1 function of form, but I'd like to just get the complete file (with multiple defuns) with macro's applied...
<thijso>
use case: I have a file that at the top defines to macros to build the actual defuns, but I want to see what the actual defuns expand to
<thijso>
s/to/two/
<Shinmera>
call read repeatedly on the file and macroexpand?
<Shinmera>
if you want to expand macros not-at-top-level you'll need a code walker
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<thijso>
hmmm, forgot that you can just read source files... lemme see where that gets me
<Shinmera>
you can't always, if reader changes are made, for instance.
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<thijso>
For some reason ECL on android does not like eval-when... makes some systems hard to use (like bordeaux-threads)
<thijso>
Looks like preparing an adapted default-implementations file for android does work. Lot of work, though, and breaks the portability of bt... :(
<thijso>
Although... maybe I can do something with :features...
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<pfdietz>
Simply reading a lisp file can be challenging, since evaluation/compilation of one form can affect how later ones are processed. *package* can change, as can the read table. Macros can be defined then used.
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<alandipert>
beach interesting, thanks
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<Xach>
alandipert: that's right. hypertext source code that is heavily interlinked.
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<ck_>
how does it feel to type the parens you love? interlinked
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
)(
<Shinmera>
cons within cons, interlinked
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<remexre>
are there any useful tools for debugging a CPU exception in FFI'd code in SBCL? gdb catches a SIGUSR1 from sbcl on start, and then gets a segfault, weirdly
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<LdBeth>
Xach: how far is xref from your expectation?
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<Xach>
LdBeth: It is great for online reference! but i want something that is vastly bigger and offline
<Xach>
I want something that xrefs everything in quicklisp, or more
<Xach>
by "offline" i mean "not using a running CL system"
<Xach>
and that opens up some possibilities, because it's not possible to actually load everything online
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<Xach>
I picture the ability to look at a project and find out if other people use it, how other people use it, how it is implemented
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<pfdietz>
It's not possible to load all of quicklisp at the same time, which annoys me. Package collisions are a big culprit. This is why I want PLNs in all CL implementations.
<Xach>
I also want PLNs but I want them to be usable with no compatibility library.
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<White_Flame>
new standard time
<White_Flame>
start meetings
<jackdaniel>
in principle PLN as specified is usable without compatibility libraries, because there is extension to defpackage macro
<jackdaniel>
only some manipulation bits are hidden in implementation-specific packages
<Xach>
jackdaniel: that's what i wish was different.
<Xach>
I wish other standard things were extended to absorb that housekeeping too.
<Xach>
in for a penny
<jackdaniel>
I get that, but I'm rather anxious to change general "ext" package to "sb-ext" ;-)
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<jackdaniel>
there is cl-implementers mailing list and there was a single proposal years ago: to standarize quit function
<jackdaniel>
and it ended with nothing, even if function was basically the same in all implementations
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<jackdaniel>
I think that they couldn't agree on the package name
<Xach>
Right. That's why I think standard CL:<foo> functions should be extended instead.
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<Xach>
i had a plan mapped out but found out it's not compliant to return new extra values :~(
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<Shinmera>
remexre: segfaults are used by the GC.
<Shinmera>
remexre: My advice is to start your lisp, go up to the point where the FFI problem would happen, then attach gdb/lldb and finally run your thing. Continue in the debugger to skip over unrelated problems until you get to the one you care about.
<remexre>
W... Wh... What???
<remexre>
I actually figured it out, I was passing a null pointer to an out argument
<Bike>
what are you whatting at
<remexre>
the segfault thing is big yikes
<Shinmera>
No it's not, it's a common strategy.
<Bike>
it's nothing unusual for a garbage collector
<Xach>
to the tune of "it's not unusual"
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<aeth>
Xach: couldn't that be resolved by having a package that reexports CL package symbols and adds new ones?
<aeth>
e.g. CL19 or something (works for every year except 2021 because someone decided "CL21" was a good name)
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<no-defun-allowed>
remexre: In SBCL, old generations are write-protected so the collector can avoid scavenging pages that don't contain references to newer generations. Writing to an older generation triggers a segfault, which SBCL marks the page written to and unprotects the page, then retries the write and everything is back to normal.
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<ArthurStrong>
Hi all. When do you use cons lists with inner links? For circular lists? Graphs?
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<pjb>
Yes.
<ArthurStrong>
pjb: Yes for both?
<pjb>
And more.
<ArthurStrong>
pjb: can I have some examples? I'm trying to understand it better