<pritambaral>
Anybody know a lib for converting byte sizes into human-readable ones? Like, 1024 => "1kib".
<loke>
I've written a fel, but never put it in a library
<loke>
few
<lxbarbosa>
hey, is it wrong to NOT be too precise on what a function should do? eg: run through list, if there is 'xx' do action
<lxbarbosa>
I could do: for x in j do action, but I think its too annoying
<loke>
lxbarbosa: You have to be a bit more precise in your question. I'd like to answer, but I don't understand what you're asking.
<lxbarbosa>
loke: parsing a list and once if finds an strings that match do action... is it wrong to be so unprecise? I reckon, one should always be sure what the list has before hand
<lxbarbosa>
s/if finds/it finds
<lxbarbosa>
lol
<loke>
You mean something like this?
<loke>
(my-magic-function "foo bar test" #'my-action)
<loke>
and MY-ACTION would be called three times with the substrings "foo" "bar" and "test"?
<Bike>
i mean, it's fine to specify preconditions...
<lxbarbosa>
loke: yes
<lxbarbosa>
is it too abstract or 'whatever'?
<loke>
lxbarbosa: No, why would it? If you have use for such function, why not? The only issue here is what you would name it such that it's (somewhat) obvious what it does.
<loke>
SPLIT-STRING-AND-CALL-ON-SUBSTRINGS would be reasonably clear.
<lxbarbosa>
loke: I mean, aint it easier to find and exploit in those abstract functions?
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<lxbarbosa>
imagine that function would to download a file and someone can just rename that list to some virus file :D
<lxbarbosa>
no need to alter original code but on-the-fly
<loke>
lxbarbosa: No. That is incorrect.
<lxbarbosa>
ok :D
<loke>
lxbarbosa: I think you're touching on the issue of injection attacks. That's a much broader issue, and has to do with how you treat untrusted data (i.e. data that getsarrives into the system from sources that you don't control)
<no-defun-allowed>
lxbarbosa: Then it's someone's fault passing it a function that does something that produces a virus.
<lxbarbosa>
loke: yep, still need to learn more about attacks
<lxbarbosa>
no-defun-allowed: indeed. There always is such a people, sadly
<no-defun-allowed>
Then you have bigger problems if someone can put a function in your program that can produce a virus.
<loke>
lxbarbosa: It's a difficult topic. I've spent several years at work trying to teach this to the develeopers. It's something all programmers need to understand, not just so that they can write secure code, but also so that they don't spend time implementing useless security features that doesn't help security (your misunderstanding fell into the second category)
<no-defun-allowed>
Perhaps I should add a virus scanner to SBCL. Something like `(car '("foo" "bar" "Invoke-Mimikatz" "baz"))` should signal an error, since the caddr could be used for virusing.
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<lxbarbosa>
loke: can you share any book or article on that topic? if it aint asking too much :D
<lxbarbosa>
no-defun-allowed: Although Ive said 'virus' I meant any vicious file, cant even name those :D
<loke>
lxbarbosa: Hmm, perhaps. Let me check.
<lxbarbosa>
soon, I will port my python scripts to lisp, just to see how much it differ from each other approach :D
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<loke>
lxbarbosa: I have to admit that I don't know of a good book that purely talks about secure coding in a language-agnostic context
<loke>
There is a Microsoft book called “Writing Secure Code (Developer Best Practices)” which, as far as I understand (I didn't read it), talk about these things. The examples are all Windows-specific though, but that shouldn't take away from the general points.
<no-defun-allowed>
I don't think I want to know what form will come after that, actually.
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<White_Flame>
I'd expect it to have lots of commas
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<p_l>
iirc writing secure code was heavy on C/C++ stuff
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<Lycurgus>
intellij-cl looks worthwhile, but tedious to install
<Lycurgus>
and igess no sense of what it offers over slime other than being intellij
<no-defun-allowed>
Not being intellij sounds like a compliment if my Java using friend is a good source on it.
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* Ober
ponders when clack stopped passing on allegro
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<Shinmera>
phoe: your layouter should ignore subsequent spaces anyway!
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<phoe>
beach: morning
<phoe>
Shinmera: I do not have a layouter :(
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<Shinmera>
the layouter is whichever algorithm selects the break opportunities.
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<jdz>
I might be misremembering exact figures, but according to Microsoft around 80–90% of security problems (remote code execution) are due to memory management problems (buffer overflows and use-after-free).
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<jdz>
And instead of improving the tools (i.e., programming languages/runtimes), they push the burden of securing software to kernel/hardware.
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<phoe>
obviously
<phoe>
no one can expect a programmer to choose a proper tool for their programming job.
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<no-defun-allowed>
bUt C iS fAsTeR
<loke>
no-defun-allowed: Rust!
<no-defun-allowed>
loke: delete this
<loke>
That will fix all memory issues while still being TEH F4STEST!
<phoe>
unsafe {
<no-defun-allowed>
drop(std); }
<shka__>
this does not surprise me at all
<Shinmera>
I mean, if y'all are gonna hoot and holler about unsafe, let's talk about people using safety 0 in Lisp.
<shka__>
every segfault is potential exploit…
<no-defun-allowed>
I should stop but a lot of the standard library uses unsafe, probably moreso than Lisp
<shka__>
Shinmera: safety 0 in a hot function can make sense, the problem is that sometimes it is used accross the whole project
<shka__>
which is insane
<no-defun-allowed>
We were bitten by safety 0 in jsown quite a bit. Got unhandled memory faults and all cause we wrote (:obj (stuff)) instead of (:obj . stuff)
<jdz>
And sometimes people think their hot loop is correct and use safety 0 and then it turns out it's not.
<Shinmera>
My point was to say that language evangelism (and damning) is dumb.
<phoe>
^
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<loke>
no-defun-allowed: Have you looked at that utterly ridiculous Remacs probject?
<loke>
Just searcing a random source file you'll see it completely riddled with ‘unsafe’
<loke>
But hey! Not it's rust, therefore better. No?
<loke>
s/Not/Now/
<Duuqnd>
I really don't understand the point of Remacs.
<no-defun-allowed>
loke: I also have to stop with this too, but it sounds very anti-Climacsictic.
<loke>
Duuqnd: It's a typical “let's rewrite it in rust” project. Just a bit more stupid than the others.
<loke>
Anyone who actually _understand_ Emacs understands that the goal must be to get _rid_ of the low-level code. Not replace it.
<no-defun-allowed>
My favourite is the one that rewrites GNU Hurd basically, but it's actually vaguely usable (not to the extent of Mezzano, no quake), but it's still trash cause Unix.
<jdz>
loke: But maybe in 10 or 20 years they'll have a better emacs lisp, written in Rust?
<Duuqnd>
loke: Yeah, how can someone work on Emacs code and still say "yee rewrite in rust"
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<loke>
jdz: Apparently. Yes?
<no-defun-allowed>
Then when it was time to learn redox reactions in chemistry class I had flashbacks. Never got the hang of chemistry either.
<jdz>
loke: Better as in they've been talking on Emacs mailing list about moving to Common Lisp (for performance reasons).
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<loke>
Duuqnd: That's the thing, they don't “work” on the Emacs code. They don't even understand it. They just mechanically replace function with the Rust workalikes. Whcih also explains why most of these fucntions have ‘unsafe’ in them.
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<loke>
jdz: Yes, that has at least been mentioned. Although the likelyhood of that happening is also absolutely tiny.
<loke>
But... at least it's nonzero when looking at a 20-year horizon. The likelyhood of Remacs becoming something better than real Emacs is zero.
<no-defun-allowed>
I also heard about troubles with unexec (similar to sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die but it also has to deal with the C side) too.
<jdz>
Right, mostly because too much of Emacs is written in C (my opinion).
<loke>
no-defun-allowed: unexec was removed in the recent version of Emacs. They use the portable dumper now.
<loke>
It's very nice.
<no-defun-allowed>
Neat.
<no-defun-allowed>
The name unexec is funny though.
<Duuqnd>
jfz: I think it'd be great to see Emacs written in just Lisp some day.
<Duuqnd>
jdz*
<loke>
The portable dumper basically portably serialises the object graph and writes it to a file. When emacs starts it can use that heap dump to pre-populate the heap.
<loke>
Another benfit is that you can dump the heap at any time, creating a snapshot of an emacs session that you can load later (there is a flag to Emacs that tells it which dump file to load)
<Shinmera>
Duuqnd: there's been plenty of attempts to make Emacs in Lisp.
<loke>
Climacs for example.
<Duuqnd>
Yeah, but none of them have managed to replace GNU Emacs.
<Shinmera>
The latest would be Lem, which seems to have actual users, so that's something.
<jdz>
Vim is succeeding in replacing Emacs.
<Duuqnd>
no
<loke>
Duuqnd: I don't think the goal sound be to replace GNU Emacs in the general case. The goal should be to be useful to at least a nonzero number of users.
<Duuqnd>
Yeah, that makes sense. It's just that there's a lot of Emacs packages that my workflow kind of depends on.
<no-defun-allowed>
Sad there's only terminal and electron interfaces for Lem though.
<loke>
no-defun-allowed: also roswell
<Duuqnd>
What would be nice would be an Emacs clone written in Common Lisp with some sort of semi-automatic porting tool for Emacs Lisp -> CL.
<Duuqnd>
I don't know how feasible that is though.
<no-defun-allowed>
That too, but it's probably usable without roswell.
<loke>
Duuqnd: It's feasible (or, even better: It would be easy to implement an Emacs lisp runtime for CL). However, the problem isn't Elisp per se. The issue is the behaviour of Emacs that Elisp depends on. Replicating that would bea nightmare. In fact, it would be futile.
<no-defun-allowed>
It should be possible, I think? Elisp is rougly a subset of Common Lisp with editor stuff on top.
<Duuqnd>
loke: Maybe some of the more commonly used quirks and features could be emulated/translated by the porting tool.
<loke>
no-defun-allowed: But you'd need a full implementation of a lot of behjaviours... For example, you need to replicate the behaviour of the Emacs-style string properties and overlays.
<Shinmera>
no-defun-allowed: the problem is the standard library.
<Duuqnd>
It'd be a tough project, but it could work.
<loke>
A sane, new, implementation of Emacs shouldn't do it like that.
<no-defun-allowed>
Shinmera, loke: true.
<loke>
So you'd need to bodge on something that implements the Emacs style overlay behaviour on top.
<Duuqnd>
What about manually porting/replacing most things, but having rough automatic porting for more obscure things.
<phoe>
if you want to avoid the "let's replicate legacy emacs behaviour" nightmare, then you *have* to rewrite a lot of elisp code to something that doesn't depend on that behaviour. that's an either-or.
<phoe>
and a rewrite of the emacs C layer in Rust/CL/TeX/whatever won't fix this particular issue.
<no-defun-allowed>
A TeX rewrite would be oddly interesting though.
<Duuqnd>
phoe: Yeah, many things need to be remade from scratch, but automatic porting could exist for when you don't want to port/rewrite old code yourself.
<phoe>
Duuqnd: do you mean a compatibility layer that accepts legacy emacs behaviour and outputs new saner behaviour?
<phoe>
That simply moves the problem elsewhere as now you have emacs-as-a-library.
<Duuqnd>
I'm thinking that it could do that as a part of converting Elisp into CL.
<Duuqnd>
And only using that for placeholders/things you don't want to replace yourself.
<phoe>
And 95% of the code still goes through that library. And now you have bugs that happen inside the emacs-as-a-library, and on the interface between it and the editor below, and also compatibility issues that will nonetheless arise.
<Duuqnd>
You could replace a majority of it with new things.
<shka__>
i think that at this point we would be better of to simply go with emacs style editor without emacs compatibility
<Duuqnd>
It'd just be nice to be able to make porting of old packages easier.
<Duuqnd>
shka__: Well, there's a lot of packages that would be quite a pain to rewrite. I don't think a lot of people are very excited about re-implementing Magit, for example.
<shka__>
true, but personally i just need slime, magit, git-timemachine, evil, parenedit, smartparens, avy and helm
<flip214>
dlowe: ping... please take a look at my local-time issues on github, thanks a lot!
<jdz>
shka__: I don't think you've included the dependencies of those libraries.
<shka__>
i didn't
<Duuqnd>
Yeah, that right there is 8 packages that would need to be remade.
<Duuqnd>
There's also a lot more packages that other people like using.
<shka__>
well, it is doable imho
<jdz>
Also, I shudder every time I look at the org-mode sources. I still use org-mode.
<phoe>
of course it's doable
<phoe>
the only issue is that it needs to be done
<phoe>
and that requires manpower, time, and motivation
<Duuqnd>
phoe: that, and we don't have a standard "Newmacs" to begin porting things to.
<phoe>
and if these three things existed in abundance, then we wouldn't even be discussing this current issue right now
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<shka__>
there is that beach climacs the second
<phoe>
emacs is simply Good Enough™ despite its clusterfuck internals.
<shka__>
clim is portable, which is good
<shka__>
it also has a good font rendering nowdays
<loke>
Can someone talk me out of this idea I have to implement a new editor in CLIM?
<phoe>
Duuqnd: the two promising newmacses are climacs and lem.
<Duuqnd>
loke: I don't know much about CLIM, but from what I've seen, it's pretty difficult to make it look nice.
<Shinmera>
Thanks
<shka__>
Duuqnd: it has dated look, but that's not critical
<loke>
Duuqnd: Well, that also depends on what you mean by “look nice”.
<Duuqnd>
I just don't like the whole monochrome black text on white background thing.
<Duuqnd>
If there's an easy way to customize the colors, I'm in.
<shka__>
neither do i, but it would be very shallow to just focus on that
<Duuqnd>
Yeah, but it's hard to focus on the cool stuff when my eyes are burning.
<phoe>
so, basically, we want a dark mode for CLIM
<shka__>
Shinmera: seriously, i have no idea how do you keep cranking out this stuff
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<Duuqnd>
phoe: Well, full color customization would be better, but basically, yeah.
<Shinmera>
shka__: Nothing better to do :(
<shka__>
ok, that works
<Shinmera>
Well, technically I do have better things to do, like focusing on university studies
<Shinmera>
Never been good at that
<shka__>
"technically"
<Duuqnd>
What could be better than making cool things in Lisp?
<phoe>
I focused so hard on these that I dropped out.
<Shinmera>
Duuqnd: securing a future with good financial support I guess.
<no-defun-allowed>
Making cool things in Lisp and getting a degree to get a good job, probably.
<no-defun-allowed>
But good language variety to one of the universities I looked at was "Java and C♯" ):
<jdz>
no-defun-allowed: Really, MUSIC SHARP SIGN?
<no-defun-allowed>
Yes, it's C sharp.
<no-defun-allowed>
And I have a compose key I have no other use for, other than writing ☭ slightly faster.
<jdz>
I use C-x 8 RET.
<Duuqnd>
jdz: Woah, I had no idea that was a thing.
<no-defun-allowed>
I don't use erc, so I can't benefit from Emacs key things.
<jdz>
I also don't use erc, because I use circe:)
<no-defun-allowed>
In fact, this web client is so shitty that even macOS configured to use Emacs keybinds don't work.
<Duuqnd>
no-defun-allowed: Why use a web client? There should be plenty of IRC clients on macOS.
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<Nistur>
I miss university. So much time to do what you want. It felt hectic and busy at the time but, looking back...
<no-defun-allowed>
Duuqnd: Because I use IRC via matrix.org, which has its own problems I'm not in the mood to cover, and that has basically 0 good clients other than the web one.
<Nistur>
oops, I didn't realise I was scrolled up
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<phoe>
scymtym: you have a choice now, either you post that last video to /r/common_lisp or I post it there
<phoe>
this is freaking amazing stuff
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<d4ryus>
very exiting yes! but i have seen it already :)
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<phoe>
I have not
<phoe>
and I can extrapolate from this that many other people haven't seen it either
<scymtym>
phoe: go ahead if you like, but make sure to note that it is a prototype. for context: the communication with the browser uses a modified version of GTK's broadway protocol ( https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/gtk-broadway.html )
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<prxq>
Hi, does anyone here have an archived copy of the RDNZL library? It seems to have vanished from the net. I followed the links at cliki etc, all download links that I've found are dead.
<prxq>
The original developer didn't answer my email either
<prxq>
phoe: thanks. My customer has a ton of legacy code based on RDNZL, that could be an upgrade path. Need to get the old stuff running first, though.
<ralt>
the doc has this warning though: "Note that the CVS repository at common-lisp.net is usually not in sync with the current release version!"
<prxq>
ralt: thanks!
<ralt>
it looks like it has rdnzl-cpp 0.7.1 and rdnzl 0.12.2
<ralt>
latest rdnzl is 0.13.3, so you'll be a bit late there
<ralt>
rdnzl-cpp is good
<ralt>
Edi Weitz was fairly responsive as of a couple of years ago though, so I'm surprised you couldn't reach out to him
<prxq>
I wrote him a week ago. Maybe he is in hollidays.
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<samlamamma>
I've got a couple of Sexprs I'd like to print out as a Graphviz graph (w/o explicit cons cells, so straight up the AST). Anyone done a similar thing with a library that they can point me to?
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<samlamamma>
Hm, CL-graph has a graph->dot
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<scymtym>
samlamamma: cl-dot is handy for that
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<samlamamma>
scymtym: Aah, it's a nice library. I might implement what I want
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<prxq>
ralt: do you know if there is a newer rdnzl-cpp?
<ralt>
prxq: the doc was saying it was the latest version, that's all I know though
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<varjag>
is there a portable way to do read-char-no-hang but on a binary stream?
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<pjb>
varjag: nope.
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<pjb>
varjag: binary streams were considered to be always non-interactive, so it didn't make sense.
<pjb>
varjag: of course, nowadays, there are implementation-specific extensions such as socket-stream, that are both binary and interactive, so implementations may provide implementation specific to do the equivalent of read-char-no-hang.
<pjb>
varjag: or, if the implementation is consistent and considers socket-streams to be interactive, you can write (when (listen s) (read-byte s))
<varjag>
right, am trying to read off tcp stream
<pjb>
check the behavior of listen in your implementation on tcp streams, and if good, (when (listen s) (read-byte s))
<varjag>
k, thanks!
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<asdf_asdf_asdf>
(add-hook 'my-php-mode-hook
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
Hi. Why this not working?
<Josh_2>
isn't that emacs config?
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
Yes, of course.
<Josh_2>
Then you should go to #emacs I think
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
Maybe someone know.
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<beach>
asdf_asdf_asdf: That is not a reason to ask off-topic questions. Lurk harder.
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
OK.
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<fiveop>
I wanted to try vulkan in CL unter linux. cl-vulkan seems unfinished and vktk is only set up for windows and mac so far. Is there anything else?
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<pjb>
fiveop: CL doesn't run under linux, but above linux. So you might want to try vulkan in CL uber linux.
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<pjb>
fiveop: thankfully, mac is a unix, so a port of vktk to linux should be fairly easy.
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