Xach changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
<fe[nl]ix> phoe: ping
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<no-defun-allowed> Should I add an IGNORE declaration to a method body for variables I don't use, even though they're implicitly used by CALL-NEXT-METHOD with no arguments?
<beach> Yes, the declaration covers only the method body.
<no-defun-allowed> Right, thanks.
<beach> But if the parameter is specialized, it is considered used.
<no-defun-allowed> They are not, so it should be fine then.
<vsync> ssj
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<equwal> I don't quite understand how this thing works or when I might need it.
<beach> equwal: The CLIM II specification has plenty of examples, and so does the McCLIM implementation of the specification.
<beach> bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/2-9.html
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<equwal> clim-demo:demodemo just blew my mind
<beach> Oh?
<equwal> I though getting McClim working would be some big process, but it took about 30 seconds.
<equwal> Just quicklisp and done.
<beach> Yes, it is usually easy.
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<LdBeth> thankfully, people has done lots of work make Common Lisp softwares portable
<aeth> Iirc, McCLIM uses CLX, which is a native-to-CL X client, which means you don't need foreign libraries and things are simple.
<aeth> Things are always difficult when you need foreign libraries, in any language.
<aeth> Or, in C, when you need libraries. :-p
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<eeeeeta> Xach: alright, https://git.theta.eu.org/cl-piglow.git/ and https://git.theta.eu.org/osmpbf.git/ now both have ASDF metadata, as requested :)
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<earl-ducaine> As a rule I like to keep lisp code to 80 colmns. I feel that about the ideal width for the human eye to scan lines comfortably.
<earl-ducaine> However, it seems impossible to write CLIM code within those bounds without adopting pathological indenting and using extremely terse names that are at odds with the naming conventions of CLIM. Which IMO are a possitive aspect destinguishing it from other frameworks.
<earl-ducaine> I've also noted that much Lisp code written in the classic era, i.e. for the MIT/LMI/Symbolics Lisp Machines, often use very wide lines. I currious what other's thoughts are on Lisp Code linewidth, especially when using a framework with a verbose othoganal naming scheme like CLIM.
<no-defun-allowed> Usually I try to keep between 80 and 90 columns, but sometimes I have to get clever with indentation to keep under that limit with long names.
<cl-arthur> I usually aim for <80 cols too, but will happily go over if it looks better than breaking things across multiple lines.
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<no-defun-allowed> Though my last project with very long names doesn't involve CLIM (yet), I have had to deal with a 50 character function name.
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<earl-ducaine> no-defun-allowed: To avoid the pathological indentation noted, and to avoid feeling that shorten and abreviate variables, I'm experimenting with 120.
<earl-ducaine> I have to say that to me it seems to negatively impact the readability of code.
<no-defun-allowed> Sure. The only problem with that is that I like to have a REPL open in half of my screen (split vertically), which obviously halves the width I can use.
<earl-ducaine> It also means that I can't use my favorite emacs window configuration, because side by side editing is to long on laptops.
<earl-ducaine> no-defun-allowed: That's the worst aspect of it so far.
<no-defun-allowed> The only solution for that I know is to use a smaller font, but I like having a pixel-for-pixel Lisp machine font for some reason.
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<earl-ducaine> And by making it 120 characters, I'm imposing that width on anyone who wants to support the code.
<no-defun-allowed> Hm, currently I can fit about 105 characters in half of my laptop's screen.
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<earl-ducaine> Ideally line width would be a personal preference, and your editor would grind the code into the standard format of the repository when you check it in.
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<earl-ducaine> I would feel less concern about adopting 120 length lines .
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<tfb> earl-ducaine: that's essentially what sedit on the dmachines did of course (although I am not sure how comments worked)
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<earl-ducaine> tfb: Franz Lisp (the free maclisp compatible version that was distributed in the 80s) was bundled with cmuedit, which I think is related to sedit. I've alway ment to see if I could get it to run to check it out.
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<gendl> Hi, is there a simple relational database implemented natively in Lisp? Something like a clsql frontend but without needing an external db server?
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<cl-arthur> are you looking for an in-memory database to avoid configuring an on-disk one? What do you mean by external?
<gendl> It can be in-memory or read & write to the filesystem.
<fe[nl]ix> if you don't want an external server you can use sqlite
<gendl> by “external” I mean a separate non-lisp program (other than the filesystem provided by the os)
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<gendl> fe[n]ix: I was hoping for something lisp-native but sqlite with cl-sqlite looks like the next-best thing, thanks 🙏🏻
<Xach> gendl: https://github.com/kraison/vivace-graph-v3 is pure lisp but not relational (sorry)
<Xach> it is a graph DB
<Xach> I don't know of a relational one offhand
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<gendl> Xach: thanks, I should learn more about graph databases, I think relational can be simulated on top of them, but as I understand, graph db’s tend to do purposeful denormalization of tables..
<gendl> I’ll give cl-sqlite a try. I’m just trying to make a little web app for recipe & ingredient management.
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<Xach> I wish that asdf would report all missing dependencies at once rather than piecemeal
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<Xach>
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<phoe> fe[nl]ix: pong
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<phoe> what's up
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<stylewarning> Xach: this calls for fe[nl]ix’s “asdf is imperative” speech
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<galdor> I'm curious, is there a idiomatic way to read everything from a stream until EOF and return it as a sequence? I'm used to write a function which calls READ-SEQUENCE repeatedly with a buffer growing with ADJUST-ARRAY, but it seems way overkill for something which should be simple
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<Bike> i mean, that's pretty much what you have to do, yeah? if you don't know the length beforehand.
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<galdor> I don't know, there may be some kind of built in I missed
<Bike> fraid not
<Bike> i think alexandria has read-file-into-string
<Bike> but it just does that
<galdor> yeah but I want a stream in general; for example if you spawn a process with SB-EXT:RUN-PROGRAM, you may want to read the entire output from the stdout and stderr streams
<galdor> oh well
<Bike> there's also read-stream-content-into-string
<Bike> or -into-byte-vector if you prefer
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<galdor> oh interesting
<galdor> thank you
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<mfiano> uiop has various functions for doing so
<mfiano> slurp-stream-string comes to mind
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<pjb> galdor: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:sexp-list-file-contents "file.sexp")
<pjb> galdor: from a stream: (loop :for form = (read in nil in) :until (eq form in) :collect form)
<pjb> galdor: sexp-list-file-contents is an accessor. You can do (setf (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:sexp-list-file-contents "/tmp/file.sexp") '(a b c)) to write the file.
<galdor> the loop version is interesting, I need one day to spend more time understanding the code being generated
<galdor> regarding the other function, I cannot use it because of the license (not a complaint of course, your code your decision)
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<slyrus__> is there any sort of mapping from lisp packages to asdf systems?
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<pjb> slyrus__: nope.
<slyrus__> Ok.
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<pjb> slyrus__: loading a system is Turing Complete! This could create or modify 0, 1 or multiple packages.
<_death> slyrus: not aware of any centralized place, but here are some: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1604#1604
<pjb> slyrus__: a different set of packages each time you load the system!
<pjb> slyrus__: for example if you load the system in the morning, perhaps a package named "MORNING" would be created, and if you load it in the afternoon, a package named "AFTERNOON" would be created…
<pjb> slyrus__: perhaps a package named "BACKEND-CCL" would be created on ccl, and another named "BACKEND-SBCL" would be created on sbcl?
<slyrus__> pjb: sure, but asdf:register-system-packages allows one to advertise which packages the system creates, no?
<pjb> More or less.
<_death> slyrus: this is useful in relation to package-inferred-systems.. with that idea in mind, I wonder if defsystem has/should have an option to specify it
<slyrus__> _death: yeah, that's what I was thinking.
<slyrus__> well I'm fantasizing about new features, it would be nice if slime's argument completion supported local package nicknames.
<pjb> You could have poor systems that define a single statically defined package when loaded. Then you could make a map. But mind that several systems may define or modify the same package.
<_death> slyrus: I was just scanning slime's pull requests, and I noticed I have an open one from 2016.. this is why I didn't bother making further pull requests
<_death> slyrus: I think there was a PR related to local package nicknames.. likely bitrotted
<slyrus__> pjb: yeah, I just want a shorthand to find the system file that corresponds (or advertises itself as corresponding) to a given package.
<pjb> slyrus__: you can track the differences between the packages before and after loading a system, and record those facts for later querying in the same lisp image.
<galdor> if someone here is admin on common-lisp.net, https://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/ references git://common-lisp.net/projects/alexandria/alexandria.git which is dead ("Connection refused", etc.)
<pjb> slyrus__: but note that it's already what M-. does. Jumping to some source file in some system directory…
<pjb> slyrus__: only, several systems could be loading the same file, so you wouldn't know which system loaded the file.
<slyrus__> pjb: Sure, but I want my code to find it, not M-. . Like I said, I just want a way to be able to advertise that an asdf system provides a package, and then to be able to, given a package, find that system.
<pjb> yeah a 80% solution that doesn't help when you really need it.
<slyrus__> exactly :) works for me!
<pjb> When you work with a system, you know the packages it provides and vice-versa…
<stylewarning> I would love to see some global environment diff mechanism with beach’s stuff
<stylewarning> Observe the effects of loading a system
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<jason_m> With standard CL, is there a way to create something like C's pipe? I have some instances that read and write data, up until now using *standard-input* and *standard-output*. Now I would like one instance's output to serve as input to another.
<pjb> jason_m: what's a C pipe? I know C char, int, long, float, double, C arrays, C structures, C enums, C unions; C functions; C statements and C expressions. What is a C pipe?
<pjb> jason_m: have a look at com.informatimago.clext.pipe.
<jason_m> pjb: pipe is a function from unisdt.h. It returns sets a pair of file descriptors that can be used for reading and writing. http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/pipe.2.html
<pjb> jason_m: unistd is the standard interface to UNIX.
<_death> jason_m: not standard, but if you're using sbcl, https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1605#1605 (uses sb-sys:make-fd-stream)
<jason_m> (Or it sets a pair of file descriptor rather)
<pjb> jason_m: if you want that, use iolib or some implementation-specific POSIX package.
<_death> (and sb-posix:pipe)
<pjb> jason_m: note: this has nothing to do with STREAM such as *standard-input* or *standard-output*!
<pjb> jason_m: so you were confusing C with unix or posix, and you were confusing streams with posix file descriptors…
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<jason_m> pjb: I don't know of a file descriptor interface in CL? The pipe function is the closest analogy I am familiar with.
<pjb> jason_m: you DIDN't know it. Now you know it, since I told you about it 3 messages above.
<stylewarning> pjb you’re being pedantic again and it’s annoting
<stylewarning> annoying *
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<pjb> stylewarning: I'm not pedantic. I would like to know if it's worth the pain to write here…
<pjb> If I'm talking to walls, there's no point.
<stylewarning> Just provide pointers for information. If it’s not helpful to him, then let it be. If it is, great.
<jason_m> pjb: You did, but my question was whether there was something similar included in the standard. You gave me something outside the standard.
<pjb> jason_m: then the answer is no.
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<pjb> jason_m: note that it's the same in C.
<jason_m> Yes, that is correct
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<fe[nl]ix> phoe: loading split-sequence with sbcl 1.5.9 I see some warning about being unable to inline, and some about unreacheable code. can you take a look into that ?
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<phoe> fe[nl]ix: OK, will do tomorrow and submit a PR.
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