Xach changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>
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<pjb> vms14: you can also use it within Clozure CL.app on macOS.
<pjb> vms14: I used it in Clozure CL.app sometimes.
<vms14> I don't have a mac
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<vms14> and I see it uses clim
<vms14> clim needs threads to work properly, or that's what I think
<vms14> I wanted something like emacs-nox11
<vms14> I always wanted to know how to handle text in a text editor, so maybe I'll try with the time
<vms14> with lisp you can do almost everything you want :D
<vms14> but I need to learn much more about programming and about lisp before that
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<pjb> vms14: perhaps you'd want to start with simpliers editors first>
<pjb> ?
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<pjb> (com.informatimago.common-lisp.ed.ed:ed)
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<pjb> (com.informatimago.small-cl-pgms.sedit:sedit)
<pjb> etc.
<ebrasca> What about cxxxr/lem or Climacs ?
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<LdBeth> vms14: you can start with beach's flexichain protocol https://common-lisp.net/project/flexichain/
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<LdBeth> Also, TECO is an early days editor I find very interesting.
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<p_l> TECO is both spiritual great-grandpa of Vi, and something Vi can only dream of reaching ;)
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<Irenes[m]> oh yeah TECO is a fascinating piece of history
<Irenes[m]> I remember in the late 90s I researched it for fun, and discovered that my local newspaper had been using it. like, for the reporters, not for engineers.
<Irenes[m]> although I don't know if they still were at that point
<p_l> it was for a time available on VMS, though I believe DEC TECO was at some point made a paid add-on, with the response to the outrage being "it's not an editor, it's a programming langauge"
<p_l> DEC TECO was a bit simpler and less capable than MIT TECO
<LdBeth> but where can I find spec on ITS TECO?
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<p_l> there's no official spec, only source
<p_l> and INFO files, but I don't remember how detailed they were, i mostly used EMACS
<p_l> it's a quite well commented (from cursory look) 23450 line assembly file
<LdBeth> seems I need to start learning PDP asm
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<p_l> pdp-6/10 is very unique beast among other PDP
<p_l> though it was, in fact, designed partially for lisp
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<p_l> (single processor word holding single CONS cell was part of proposed design requirements for PDP-6 from MIT)
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<vms14> I was looking at terminfo
<vms14> I died
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<LdBeth> actually you don't need that for line based editors
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<vms14> LdBeth: I was going only to play around, but not with that
<vms14> I was going to assume a vt100
<vms14> pjb: told me to use ecma 48 or termcap/terminfo
<vms14> but I guess I'll go to try ecma which is almost the same stuff as assuming a vt100 since vt100 implements part of ecma
<pjb> For line-based editors such as ed or sedit which I mentionned earlier, you can just use *terminal-io*.
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<no-defun-allowed> Do any implementations have optimised arrays for the type (or null (unsigned-byte n))?
<Bike> doubt it. you could just add another bit and make whatever number mean nil, though.
<no-defun-allowed> I guess so.
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<Bike> with how most implementations represent objects, any upgraded element type that includes nil is either going to be T, or will have to do some similar encoding
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<vms14> how I print stuff to the swank server?
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<Bike> what do you mean?
<vms14> I have the swank server in another window
<vms14> and I see the output
<vms14> I want to print there
<vms14> I've tried with *terminal-io* *debug-io* *error-output* but nope
<vms14> I use slime-connect so I start the swank server "manually" before connecting slime
<LdBeth> What I can think of is save terminal-io before loading swank so it can be accessed later
<vms14> but there is no way to print there now?
<vms14> the cl-ncurses does it
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<pjb> vms14: Now think about it. With swank, for each slime-REPL, and for each time you type C-x C-e in a lisp buffer (slime-eval-last-expression) there's a CL thread that is created and which output is redirected to slime.
<pjb> vms14: so how can you print to this output?
<pjb> Notably, the threads (and therefore the redirection of *standard-output*) created by C-x C-e is usually very temporary. As soon as the expression is finished, and the output copied in the emacs buffer, this thread is killed.
<pjb> For slime-repl, they are a little more persistent, but at any time the user may kill the buffer and M-x slime again a new repl to the same lisp image.
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<pjb> you could open a buffer and insert into it the output you'd want to write. See the eval-in-emacs example, line 64.
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<pjb> vms14: now, in the case of slime-repl, you can do the following: (defparameter cl-user::*slime-repl-1* *standard-output*) RET in the slime-repl, and then: (bt:make-thread (lambda () (let ((*standard-output* cl-user::*slime-repl-1*)) (sleep 10) (print 'hi) (terpri)))) ; but no garantee that you won't kill the slime buffer in the meantime…
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<pjb> vms14: nothing prevents you to write a swank contribution library, using slime-rpc, to nicely present output to the emacs user. You could have nice operators with (with-new-emacs-output-buffer (print 'hi)) or (with-query-io-from-emacs (format *query-io* "Please enter a number: ") (read *query-io*))
<pjb> The later would use the minibuffer to query input from the user.
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<shangul> Xach, Unfortunately, no
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<smokeink> does anyone have a backup of this file ? http://www.laas.fr/~emarsden/tmp/lsm2003-emarsden.pdf https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/5ikhmcQfINU/hXYmnmrk8AgJ
<Bike> in a tmp directory? that might be an issue
<Bike> well, eric marsden is still around, maybe you could email em
<Bike> there's also an xref chapter in the cmucl manual, i think
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<shangul> How to install a library and then load it with (asdf:load-system :somelib) ?
<pjb> You cannot.
<pjb> asdf:load-system doesn't load a library.
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<pjb> If you remove the constraint of using asdf:load-system, then you can install a library using wget and tar usually. Put in in any directory you want, and (push #P"/path/to/the/directory/you/want/path/to/the/directory/where/the/asd/is/stored/" asdf:*central-registry*) (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :somelib)
<pjb> alternatively, if you use quicklisp, you can put it in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ and then use (ql:quickload :somelib) ; which has the added bonus that if the somelib library has known dependencies, quicklisp will download, install and load them automatically.
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<phoe> > asdf:load-system doesn't load a library.
<phoe> pjb: what
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<phoe> (asdf:load-system x) calls (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op x)
<phoe> shangul: you must push #P"/home/shangul/common-lisp/" there
<phoe> it must end with a slash
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<phoe> #p"/foo" and #p"/foo/" are distinct in CL
<shangul> aha
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<phoe> also, if you want absolute simplicity, download Quicklisp and use ql:quickload for automatically downloading stuff from the Quicklisp internet repository; for stuff that isn't there, use ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ that is automatically added to ASDF
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<earl-ducaine> vms14: The Craft of Text Editing is an excellent guide to the internals of an Emacs like editor. https://www.finseth.com/craft/
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<elderK> Good evening, everyone! :)
<earl-ducaine> Unfortunately aimed at the implementing one in C and for editing the C language, but still applicable to Emacs/Hemlock/Zmacs which all share the same basic design approach.
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<pjb> phoe: shangul: sorry, I thought that load-system only loaded the asd file.
<phoe> pjb: you meant load-asd
<phoe> this one only loads the ASD file and creates the system definition object, that is correct
<phoe> but asdf:load-system is a shortcut for asdf:oos 'load-op
<phoe> shangul: ^
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<earl-ducaine> LdBeth: The original ITS docs for TECO can be found https://github.com/PDP-10/its , check the docs folder, e.g. doc/_teco_/tecord.1132
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<DarkUnicorn> hello!
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<pjb> hello!
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<beach> Hello DarkUnicorn.
<no-defun-allowed> Hello DarkUnicorn
<beach> DarkUnicorn: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
<DarkUnicorn> beach: yes! It's been a long time since I was in IRC and I was never in #list, I think :)
<beach> #lisp, you mean?
<DarkUnicorn> *lisp, sorry
<beach> So what brings you here now?
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<DarkUnicorn> I'm reading "Land of Lisp" and hope that I finally get into the language. I wanted to use it for a long time, but never came to actually do it.
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<beach> DarkUnicorn: OK, welcome then. You can ask questions here, or if they are truly trivial, #clschool might be preferable.
<DarkUnicorn> beach: Thank you for the nice welcome!
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<beach> Sure.
<DarkUnicorn> I think I will mostly idle around for now as I have not much time for lisp in my day-job...
<beach> That's fine too.
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<DarkUnicorn> beach: So what is your lisp background?
<beach> Mine? I learned Lisp at the university a long time ago.
<shangul> phoe, I have the same problem anyway
<DarkUnicorn> beach: And are you still using it? Professinally or as a hobby?
<beach> DarkUnicorn: I use it in my work.
<shangul> phoe, ^
<DarkUnicorn> beach: What are you working?
<beach> DarkUnicorn: I do CS research.
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<no-defun-allowed> shangul: You would need to install ltk then.
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<shangul> yeah that's what I'm trying to do now
<DarkUnicorn> beach: programming language related research or another field?
<shangul> I really need quicklisp
<beach> DarkUnicorn: Here is an example: metamodular.com/SICL/generic-dispatch.pdf
<no-defun-allowed> Indeed, you probably should install it.
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<DarkUnicorn> beach: cool!
<shangul> no-defun-allowed, What do Lispians mean by "installing"? I can't find any instructs in docs on this. Is it just coping files to a directory and add that path to asdf?
<no-defun-allowed> There are instructions on https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
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<shangul> no-defun-allowed, instructions about installing quicklisp or a library?
<no-defun-allowed> The former.
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<no-defun-allowed> To get some idea of why Quicklisp is probably good and how dependencies tend to "blow up", you might want to skim the Linux from Scratch book, which demonstrates manual dependency tracking quite well.
<pjb> shangul: yes.
<no-defun-allowed> I mean, ltk probably calls some kind of portable process running library, and who knows what that uses.
<no-defun-allowed> pjb: Do you honestly think that helps shangul?
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<shangul> no-defun-allowed, I can't install quicklisp. 503
<no-defun-allowed> Yikes.
<shangul> Xach, ^
<shangul> for now I'll install dependencies one by one
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<shangul> :|
<shangul> vgplot depends on cl-fad and that does not exist...
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<Cymew> Quicklisp downloads just fine from here
<Cymew> shangul: Was it a hicckup or are you behind some kind of filtering firewall?
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<shangul> Cymew, Indeed I am behind a firewall but I don't know if it filters something or not
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<Cymew> I'll try sending it to you.
<shangul> Cymew, I have quicklisp.lisp
<Cymew> Ok, so it blocks after you load it? That's harder to work around.
<shangul> my problem's when I try to use (quicklisp-quickstart:install)
<shangul> How to tell SBCL to use a http proxy?
<shangul> Or should I change something in quicklisp.lisp?
<Shinmera> the install function has a :proxy argument.
<shangul> I just ssh'ed to another computer out of my network and it worked fine, without proxy
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<shangul> Shinmera, Thanks
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<Cymew> Oh, there is a proxy setting. Nice. Good to know. Otherwise you usually can set proxy settings system wide, at least in most linux systems.
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<shangul> \o/
<shangul> Thank you all!
<smokeink> sometimes proxychains is handy
<Cymew> I hate those environments with obnoxious proxies.
<no-defun-allowed> My school had some kind of script (proxy.pac) that a user would download, and it supposedly tried to load-balance over two servers by handing all even IPs to one server and odd to the other. You could still pick one and use the other half of the Internet from it, so it wasn't so bad.
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<shangul> Can others open CLHS with https?
<shangul> I've got a bad feeling about the network I'm on.
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<shangul> nothing. forget it
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<spacedbat> hello, long time lurking, now I'm on holidays I wanted to play a bit with sbcl 1.5.9 - I have it on a remote server so I'm running swank and using ssh port forwarding like I used to - but it doesn't work
<spacedbat> upon running slime-connect, slime errors almost immediately with a message starting: error in process filter: make client process failed: Connection refused
<spacedbat> emacs is then frozen until I long-press C-g
<spacedbat> on the server side, nothing happens for a while and then: ;; swank:close-connection: end of file on #<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM for "socket 127.0.0.1:4005, peer: 127.0.0.1:43780" {10045963D3}>
<spacedbat> I can telnet to the port just fine, there's something listening on the other end
<spacedbat> when I run the same versions of sbcl and swank locally this process just works, it appears to be something about the ssh tunnel
<spacedbat> yet when I run a http server in the remote lisp image and use the same port forwarding, I can access it just fine
<spacedbat> maybe I'm missing something obvious, or it is some interaction between swank and ssh, on recent versions of emacs/slime/sbcl
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<smokeink> 1.5.9 had some bugs, try to compile the latest commit from github
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<DarkUnicorn> so sbcl is the common lisp compiler these days?
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<Shinmera> it is /a/ compiler.
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<Xach> spacedbat: connection refused is a very specific error that i do not think is related to the version of sbcl.
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<Xach> spacedbat: i've seen it happen sometimes when there is a mismatch in what processes think "localhost" means.
<Xach> ipv6 sometimes comes into play
<Posterdati> hi
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<beach> DarkUnicorn: There are several very good, free Common Lisp implementations. SBCL is probably the most commonly used by #lisp participants.
<beach> Hello Posterdati.
<Posterdati> please I have a problem with (uiop:getenv "CC") on OpenBSD, it always gets NIL. I placed and exported CC and CXX in .profile, .login and .bashrc and .bash_profile
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<Posterdati> as effect of this, cffi uses cc which won't compile gsll and antik
<spacedbat> Xach, smokeink: thanks for yoru input
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<Posterdati> beach: any hints?
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<Xach> Posterdati: what lisp are you using?
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<Posterdati> Xach: sbcl
<beach> Posterdati: Me? I don't use foreign code at all. Sorry.
<Xach> Posterdati: you can set the value with (sb-posix:setenv "CC" "gcc" 1)
<Posterdati> Xach: I patched ctoolchain.lisp under cffi to set *cc* to "egcc"
<Xach> or whatever you want instead of "gcc"
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<Posterdati> Xach: ah ok, thanks!
<smokeink> Posterdati: also have a look at uiop:getenv , why does it fail (if nothing else works)
<Posterdati> ok thanks
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<spacedbat> OMG I had SWANK:*USE-DEDICATED-OUTPUT-STREAM* set to T
<mercourisj> Is there a varible for the current package than I can bind in a let or some other form?
<spacedbat> getting rid of that in .swank.lisp fixed it
<mercourisj> I want a body to be executed in a different package
<spacedbat> *PACKAGE*
<mercourisj> ah, indeed it is
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<Bike> keep in mind that if you have (let ((*package* whatever)) body), the package won't be bound until after the body is read
<mercourisj> I think it should be OK, I'm going to try it now and see if it breaks everything :-D
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<jmercouris> Bike: you are correct
<minion> jmercouris, memo from pjb`: I would bet that even picolisp has (elt list index). ACL2 (which is more a theorem proven than a programming language) also doesn't have arrays, and use lists to represent them, but that's only in the purpose of proving theorems.
<jmercouris> pjb: it has something similar, it has nth
<jmercouris> I have a snippet: http://dpaste.com/328SHY9
<jmercouris> I don't understand why the let binding isn't working for the package
<beach> jmercouris: It is working alright.
<beach> jmercouris: The code in the body will be EXECUTED with the package bound.
<beach> jmercouris: But the entire form is READ before it is executed.
<beach> So the package won't be bound during the read.
<jmercouris> beach: how to get around this?
<jmercouris> do I have to use (in-package ...) before and after?
<jmercouris> instead of binding within the let?
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<beach> I don't think there is a single answer. It depends on what you want to do.
<jmercouris> the parent problem is this, I want to embed parenscript into my program without using package prefixes everywhere
<Bike> usually we don't arrange things in a "this body needs to be in this package" way.
<jmercouris> however, I don't want to :use parenscript for my main package
<jmercouris> Bike: usually not, but I am embedding this code within code of another package
<Bike> i mean, in package before and after would work, but maybe it's too ugly
<jmercouris> I won't ever see it, it is part of a macro, so I am OK with that
<jmercouris> I was thinking I could be clever and use a LET
<Bike> the essential thing to understand is that *package* is bound before reading. you can't bind it at evaluation time and expect it to affect the reading of an inner form
<Bike> that would entail reading and evaluation being interleaved, which is a big no
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<jmercouris> ok, I see
<Bike> you probably can't do it in a macro exactly
<Bike> that is, if you expand to something like (progn (in-package ...) stuff-with-parenscript (in-package ...)), that entire progn form is all read in the same *package*
<jmercouris> ... damn
<pfdietz> Reading and evaling have to be kept separate in your mind. It's possible to eval (or compile) things that were never read at all.
<jmercouris> this is too hard for me to comprehend
<jmercouris> how can you eval something that is not read?
<pfdietz> Top level forms in a file are somewhat special, in that when loading a file forms are evaluated in order before the next is read. There are also rules for compile. See also EVAL-WHEN.
<pfdietz> You can construct a form. It's just Lisp data.
<pfdietz> The reader constructs forms from a character sequence, but forms can be constructed other ways too. Evaluation doesn't care.
<jmercouris> hm, I see
<jmercouris> I will need to spend more time on this
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<pfdietz> Macroexpansion constructs forms that were not there in the program text, for example (although parts of the macroexpansion may have been).
<pfdietz> When I test CL compilers, I churn out randomly constructed forms. They don't go through the reader, but are passed directly to eval or compile (after wrapping in a lambda).
<jmercouris> Are things not macroexpanded and THEN read?
<pfdietz> No. Macroexpansion occurs on Lisp data. The reader is done with it by then.
<jmercouris> its like a huge light bulb just went off
<jmercouris> and so many bugs have finally started to make sense
<pfdietz> READER macros are processed by the reader, but ordinary macros are not.
<jmercouris> RIGHT RIGHT!
<jmercouris> thats why they exist!
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<dlowe> Hey, jmercouris got the lisp enlightenment
<pfdietz> The other common misconception with macros is that they are expanded when your code is executed.
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<pfdietz> They need not be: in the compiler, macros are expanded at compile time, not evaluation time.
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<pfdietz> This means a macro cannot depend on a special variable that is bound in your code, around a use of the macro.
<Bike> i feel like that one was a little confusing for the language designers too, given some of em thought compiler-let would be useful
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<pfdietz> If you need to pass information down to macros nested inside other macros, the proper way to do that is with MACROLET (or SYMBOL-MACROLET) and using the environment argiment in macro functions to query the environment.
<pfdietz> The erroneous way is for the surrounding macro to generate code that binds a special variable.
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<Bike> anyway, not sure what do do about your specific problem, i'm afraid
<pfdietz> Is that doing something to the string at macroexpansion time?
<Bike> jmercouris's code? it's returning the string
<Bike> ps:ps is a macro, i think
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<pfdietz> Ok
<Bike> it translates a CL-like language to javascript. as you can see, it treats (some-other-package:chain ...) as a function call, but ps:chain as a special operator
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<Bike> maybe you could just make your-package:chain an alias for ps:chain, and so on
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<pfdietz> import, you mean?
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<Bike> yeah
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<jgodbout> minion: registration, please?
<minion> The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=3c3208c4 will be valid until 16:00 UTC.
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<Davd33> I didn’t know that it existed, but I was happy to find out about the function identity 😊
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<pfdietz> It can be useful at times, usually as a function passed to other functions.
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<boeg> Can anyone recommend a book that are kinda project focused, but we use lisp as hour toolbox, rather than just a "learn lisp" books. I have just read pratical common lisp and land of lisp, and the book on my lisp is common lisp recipes, but it kinda looks like a bit of the same deal as the two I just read, and I think it would be more exciting with a book that was a bit different now, but still would help cement what i've just
<boeg> learned by
<boeg> using it in a "proper project".
<boeg> as our*
<boeg> and the next book on my list*
<boeg> damn ...
<Xach> boeg: what counts as a "proper project" to you?
<Shinmera> minion: tell boeg about paip
<minion> boeg: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
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<boeg> Xach: I guess what I mean where the goal isn't to learn lisp, but learning something else but where the tool of choice is lisp, if you get my meaning
<boeg> Shinmera: I'll check it out!
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<Xach> boeg: some of the Practical Common Lisp follow that paradigm
<Xach> processing MP3 files may be a little dated, but it's something.
<boeg> Xach: Sure, but it still felt more as a "task for learning lisp" rather than the other way around. Same with the games in land of lisp
<Xach> I don't know of a CL book that fits that description, sorry.
<boeg> No worries
<Shinmera> the best book for real projects are... real projects!
<Xach> Paradigms of AI Programming is a really great book and dense with info, but I don't think it is a "project first, lisp second" book either. it weaves teaching lisp in very nicely, though.
<boeg> Shinmera: right, I just don't feel quite ready yet. I'd like some more hand holding in writing real code in lisp before starting on what I have lined up.
<Shinmera> I meant read real projects
<boeg> However I think that PAIP is what I'll go with
<Xach> boeg: Many here (myself included) will be happy to help.
<boeg> Shinmera: oh
<boeg> Xach: yeah, thanks :)
<Xach> boeg: stack overflow is pretty good for lisp answers too
<dlowe> boeg: why not start contributing to some open source projects? The feedback you get will be very educational
<Shinmera> there's a lot that would appreciate the help, too.
<boeg> dlowe: perhaps ... any beginner-friendly common lisp project you have in mind?
<dlowe> boeg: also, you might be interested in #clschool which is all about starting out in CL
<boeg> dlowe: Ill check it out, thanks
<dlowe> nothing I had in mind, no. Anything with open issues that looks interesting to *you*
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<boeg> dlowe: sure
<Shinmera> I'm very bad at estimating what would be good or interesting for a beginner, so I can't say either.
<boeg> Shinmera: no worries, I think I'll start with PAIP and see how it goes for now
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<Shinmera> I do have plenty of projects though and would be happy for any help on them :)
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<nwoob> What makes a language object oriented? If I'm looking at a language which is new to me how can I determine if it supports OOP
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<Xach> nwoob: if the marketing or introductory materials claim it is
<Xach> but that is not a great topic of discussion for #lisp
<Xach> We can discuss CLOS and things like that though!
<nwoob> Got it, so in which channel can I get my question answered
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<Xach> I don't know, sorry.
<nwoob> Ok thanks :)
<aeth> Maybe a general one? Like ##programming if it exists
<nwoob> Yes, it does. Thank you
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<aeth> Every language is going to have its own definitions.
<nwoob> I understand that, that's why I want to know some key point to differentiate
<Bike> each language is going to have its own key point
<Bike> it's magical
<dlowe> I don't think you will get the certainty you crave
<Xach> When I was working on compositing code in Lisp, one inspiration was Alvy Ray Smith's documentation of how Altamira Composer worked internally. The documentation explained how they did it all in C, but it was clearly written in a very object-oriented style, despite C's relatively poor direct support for that style.
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<boeg> Shinmera: You are welcome to send me a link or two and I'll see if there is something I'd like to and think I could help with
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<boeg> (or 3 or 4 or whatever :P)
<dlowe> I have also seen C++ written in a very object-oriented style, despite its extremely poor support.
<phoe> nice
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<boeg> Shinmera: I'll check it out
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<Xach> I felt the same way when jwz talked about working with "objects" in C - he meant more in the Lisp sense, where anything is an object, and it's not a special thing with special syntax to send messages around.
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* jackdaniel makes noises resembling "cl_object" in ECL's C code
<Bike> "object" also means something different in C-where-you-pay-attention-to-the-standard, to make sure everyone's confused
<nwoob> Bike what is the proper definition of an object
<Bike> what, in C?
<nwoob> No cl
<nwoob> Also is everything really a list in Lisp?
<Xach> nwoob: in CL, an object is any Lisp datum.
<Bike> no, many things are not lists.
<vms14> xD
<nwoob> :D
<Bike> numbers are not, for instance
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<Bike> i don't think the glossary defines "datum". it's kind of hard since anything the program can deal with is a "datum"
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<Bike> objects are things you can pass to functions
<Bike> and return from functions. i guess.
<nwoob> Pass to function like parameters?
<Bike> yeah.
<nwoob> But we can pass parameters to functions in pure functional programming too
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<Bike> The meaning of "object" in common lisp is not really about object oriented programming.
<Xach> It is more like object as in a thing
<Bike> Stuff
<nwoob> Ok
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<Bike> lisp is "object oriented" in that it has generic functions and multimethods that can do different things depending on the classes of their arguments. "ad hoc polymorphism", if you want something you can look up
<nwoob> Sure
<nwoob> I'll
<Bike> it's not so much "object oriented" in the sense of smalltalk, where a program's behavior consists of methods that are tied to objects
<Bike> or messages passed between objects
<vms14> isn't everything an object in lisp?
<Xach> vms14: every lisp datum!
<Shinmera> values aren't an object, for instance.
<Bike> Everything is an object, but that "object" may not be the same kind of thing a person has in mind when they say "object-oriented".
<Shinmera> or rather, values isn't an object.
<dlowe> "what does object oriented MEAN" has no universally approved answer, has never converged, and arguing over it is pointless.
<aeth> there are some things that people include in their OOP definition lists that CLOS doesn't have, like encapsulation.
<Shinmera> how does it not have that
<pjb> vms14: all lisp values are an object, but there are different classes of objects, and you are not allowed to modify methods on standard generic functions for standard object classes. You have to define your own generic functions. In smalltalk, you can specifically replace system methods, any one of them.
<Bike> You see, you first have to understand Aristotle, who
<vms14> I never looked at smalltalk
<aeth> Shinmera: afaik the only 'true' encapsulation (unless you do hacks with symbols) is via closures and the rest is by convention like private symbols and the % prefix
<vms14> I was a bit interested because anyone talks so well about smalltalk and its oop
<vms14> but meh
<vms14> also I need to study CLOS
<Bike> smalltalk is interesting.
<Shinmera> aeth: what you're talking about is protection flags, not encapsulation.
<pjb> OOP = encapsulation, abstraction, inheritance and polymorphism.
<Shinmera> aeth: And protection flags can be circumvented in "traditional OOP" too.
<pjb> In CL, encapsulation is not enforced. When you have an object, and the name of one of its slots, you can always use the slot-value accessor to access it.
<aeth> and then you can do slot-value with its-package::%%please-dont-use-this
<pjb> But you can avoid shooting yourself in the foot, by using only exported symbols (no encapsulation there either, since you can always qualify non-exported symbols with :: instead of :), and use the provided public accessors, instead of accessing the "internals" of the object.
<pjb> Inheritance, we have it, even as multiple-inheritance.
<pjb> Abstraction, we have it, even several classes of abstraction! Classes, functions, macros, reader macros, etc.
<pjb> And Polymorphism, we have it, with methods to generic functions. Note that methods are associated to functions, not to classes!
<pjb> If you want a stronger encapsulation, you could write your own object system in CL, this is meta-linguistic abstraction.
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<vms14> what about MOP?
<vms14> I don't understand too much what really is
<vms14> but I should study CLOS basics first. I don't event know how to use methods xD
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<pjb> vms14: it's an add-on. It let you introspect, modify or redefine the whole object system.
<vms14> that's the only thing I know about, you can modify stuff
<vms14> how you deploy a program that uses libraries with quicklisp?
<vms14> you can load and compile the file and it will "charge" all that libraries, so there is no need to install quicklisp in other pc as long as you have that fasl?
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<pjb> vms14: yes, there are provisions to do something like that. I don't know them, read the quicklisp user manual.
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<nirved> boeg: for a book which is project focused, and uses CL, you might want to check out "Professional Automated Trading" by Eugene Durenard
<boeg> nirved: thanks ill check it out !
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* Xach wishes he could tell vms14 about quicklisp bundles
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