Xach changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>
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<Xach> smokeink: have you read xof's paper on bootstrapping? it's related to that.
<smokeink> ok I'll takke a look at that paper. ANy idea why does swank need to handler-bind it?
<Bike> i guess so it can deal with sb!whatever in source?
<Xach> smokeink: so that you can use slime to work with bootstrapping package syntax, i guess
<Xach> like bike said
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<asarch> If I have this timestamp with time zone enabled in a PostgreSQL record which corresponds to 2020-01-17 12:24:44.809571-06 why (let ((fecha (make-instance 'simple-date:timestamp :days 3788274284 :ms 3788274284))) (simple-date:decode-timestamp fecha)) gives other results: 10373942 11 15 1052 17 54 284
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<npfaro> hi
<Xach> asarch: i can't tell how the details of your question relate to each other
<Xach> hi npfaro
<npfaro> I have a problem with UIOP process spawning/killing on windows
<npfaro> I can spawn processes fine with uiop:launch-program, but uiop:terminate-process just doesn't work
<npfaro> I can call it as much as I want, even with :urgent t but it doesn't work
<asarch> Ok, let's try another angle: how could I convert this 3788274284 (the value stored in the PostgreSQL cluster) into this 2020-01-17 12:24:44.809571-06 using Postmodern?
<npfaro> Ok actually it seems like it's working with :urgent t now.... but why doesn't it without
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<_death> asarch: this value looks like a universal time, so use decode-universal-time
<_death> simple-date has universal-time-to-timestamp
<asarch> (simple-date:universal-time-to-timestamp 3788274284)
<asarch> Thank you _death!
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<asarch> (simple-date:decode-timestamp (simple-date:universal-time-to-timestamp 3788274284))
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<npfaro> Hmm, yeah uiop:terminate-process definitely isn't working
<npfaro> When i use uiop:process-alive-p it shows that the process is "not running" but it still is on my system
<npfaro> Could it possibly be because the subprocess is also an sbcl process? i wouldn't think that would matter though
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<Xach> npfaro: it could be that uiop functions are not well-tested on windows
<npfaro> Damn. maybe i'll go plumb around in it I guess
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<npfaro> what's the hotkey to go to the definition of a function? slime-edit-definition just takes me to a blank buffer
<no-defun-allowed> M-.
<npfaro> that is slime-edit-definition
<npfaro> hmm looks like it's a fasl file
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<Xach> M-. is what's normally used to go to a definition.
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<npfaro> Lol holy crap, it's actually shelling out to taskkill
<Xach> oh, M-. on uiop/asdf doesn't work so great.
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<npfaro> Found the problem. process-info-pid doesn't get set correctly
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<npfaro> it gets set to the PID of the shell running the process i guess
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<harovali> hi! What is using people besides great mcclim?
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<ebrasca> harovali: For what function?
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<harovali> ebrasca: for user interfaces
<harovali> ebrasca: like mcclim
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<ebrasca> harovali: I need to sleep , here is 04:39.
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<harovali> ebrasca: good night !
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
<beach> harovali: I only use McCLIM for that purpose. That is why I was part of making it a reality in its early days.
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<no-defun-allowed> I wrote an implementation of the "worlds" model for scoping side effects: https://gitlab.com/Theemacsshibe/cl-worlds
<no-defun-allowed> It's similar in purpose to using a transaction to group updates to a database, and the concept is described in http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2011001_final_worlds.pdf
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<beach> Sounds very useful.
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<no-defun-allowed> Indeed. I think it would make more sense if the environment(s) and other side effects like IO could be logged and committed like objects can now, but that would need work with much lower levels of implementation, and the (described) implementation of logging objects is already pretty inefficient compared to normal objects.
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<beach> I don't know about I/O, but could first-class global environments play a role here?
<beach> Especially if they are incremental as is part of the plan.
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<no-defun-allowed> The paper only describes worlds in terms of objects and their slots, so we would have to come up with semantics for anything else. (I already hacked in unbound slot support, since neither JavaScript or Smalltalk really have unbound slots; there's probably a bug there but I haven't come up with any programs to test it with.)
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<beach> I see.
<no-defun-allowed> My gut feeling says that lexical environments would also have to be subjects of worlds though.
<beach> Hmm, OK.
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<no-defun-allowed> Oh, the second section titled "Approach" includes "global and local variables" in their description of "all the side effects".
<no-defun-allowed> "The world is a new language construct that reifies the notion of program state. All computation takes place inside a world, which captures all of the side effects -- changes to global and local variables, arrays, objects’ instance variables, etc. —- that happen inside it."
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<no-defun-allowed> The paper only describes how worlds affect retrieving and updating slot values of objects however. That would probably require control over the environment model, like how we already need a meta-object protocol.
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<beach> The final objective sounds inefficient in terms of performance.
<no-defun-allowed> Sure, it is probably too general to have acceptable performance.
<no-defun-allowed> I would guess it is at least possible to make some optimisations, like deducing what objects won't ever escape a with-world form and can use a more normal representation, but I wouldn't know what's possible with compilers.
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<boeg> Is there like an "append" or "merge" function for arrays?
<no-defun-allowed> clhs concatenate
<no-defun-allowed> Wait, do you mean a vector or an array?
<no-defun-allowed> array → multi-dimensional array
<ck_> there's also merge, as in merge-sort, for sequences
<boeg> i just mean a simple array
<no-defun-allowed> Hold up; didn't Interlisp have a global UNDO thing? The implementation details of that might be relevant to how to implement worlds.
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<LdBeth> utilisp implements reversible effects
<LdBeth> however, where reversible effects really get useful is only doing backtracking, in such a way there's already screamer does the job.
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<LdBeth> also utilisp includes a lisp flavored prolog
<LdBeth> but they are all essentially less fancier continuations
<flip214> when my CSV files only has a very limited number of values in a column, what's the most compact way to handle that via pgloader? convert via a lisp function to a single-byte integer, and (optionally) reference another table? Can pgloader insert into two or more tables in a single pass for such normalization?
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<beach> boeg: Simple arrays can be multidimensional. What does it mean to append or merge a 2x3 array with a 4x2 array? If you don't want to allow such arrays, you need to tell use more restrictions.
<boeg> beach: right, in this situation I just deal with one-dimensional arrays. I think concatenate is usable
<beach> OK.
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<boeg> Say I have two sequences of type simply-array character (n) and I want to concatenate them. If I just pass 'simple-array to concate, i get "simple-array is a bad type specifier for sequences. How do I get this to work?
<boeg> concatenate*
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<beach> You need to specify a rank probably.
<boeg> a rank?
<beach> Number of dimensions.
<no-defun-allowed> (simple-array <type> 1) is a one-dimensional simple-array with element-type <type>
<boeg> ah - that should be n1 + n2, obviously. So should I calculate that manually?
<boeg> beach: oh, you said dimensions, sorry, thats 1
<beach> Yes, 1.
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<boeg> no-defun-allowed: so `'(simple-array character 1)`
<beach> You can also use STRING.
<no-defun-allowed> How would that be different to the type STRING, may I ask?
<boeg> really?
<beach> clhs string
<boeg> yes, seems to work
<boeg> its obvious when you realize it
<boeg> thanks
<beach> boeg: I suggest you look at the Common Lisp HyperSpec entry for the system class.
<beach> boeg: You need to not only know that it works, but also why.
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<boeg> beach: yes, thank you
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<aeth> Oh, it's interesting that '(simple-array character 1) works. I've always just used '(simple-array character (*))
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<aeth> "It must be a new feature" is what I'd say for any other language
<imherentlybad> So I am using portableaserve and I keep on getting errors with (net.aserve:publish) when I use the :funciton keyword. When I load the path I get an error saying that req and ent do not exist
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<luis> flip214: re swank/rpc:write-header, it's pretty weird that the message length is encoded that way.
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<pjb> boeg: how do you append or merge #2((a b c) (d e f)) with #3A(((1 2) (3 4) (5 6) (7 8)) ((0 0) (0 0) (0 0) (0 0)) ((1 1) (2 2) (3 3) (4 4))) ?
<beach> pjb: boeg already told us that they are vectors.
<pjb> Oh.
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<gabc> Hi, if I put something like (declare (optimize (speed 0) (space 0) (debug 3))) at the top of my file and load it, will it affect all the definitions in the file?
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<Shinmera> declare cannot appear at the top level
<beach> clhs declaim
<Shinmera> you want declaim. And in that case it will affect everything that is compiled after it, not just that file.
<gabc> Ooooh and declare for each function
<gabc> Thanks :)
<beach> Shinmera: Are you sure about that?
<beach> Shinmera: I think that depends on the implementation.
<gabc> I can load the file with 'declaim' at top level (on sbcl)
<Shinmera> ah, indeed, it's unspecified.
<gabc> In doubt, I put the declare form in most of the functions I care about
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<pjb> gabc: never put optimization level declarations in your sources! It's not hardwired. Depending on why you compile and load, you want different optimization. When you're in the REPL debugging, you don't want the same optimizations as when you're generating the executable for customers.
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<gabc> pjb: Yes and I thought it would give me more info, which it didn't really. But it's not going to any customer anytime soon so it should be fine (I took them out because they didn't help)
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<boeg> How can I tell sly (or slime) to like clean up the sbcl image? So say I have a function loaded among a lot of other stuff, and I remove the functions from the code, how can I make sly/slime to like start from scratch, load everything anew from source files?
<LdBeth> you just have to unintern the function and let gc do it’s work
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<boeg> LdBeth: alright, thank you
<LdBeth> or (setf (symbol-function ...) nil)
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<galdor> or fmakunbound
<boeg> ah, cool!
<galdor> in general with slime it's a lot simpler to use M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp
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<pjb> boeg: type ,restart RET
<boeg> pjb: ah!
<boeg> thats great too, thanks
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<Posterdati> hi
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<pjb> hi
<Posterdati> please I have a problem quickloading lisp-unit2 --> Symbol "*SYSTEMS-BEING-OPERATED*" not found in the ASDF/OPERATE package
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<Posterdati> running sbcl 2.0 on OpenBSD 6.6 (amd64)
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<asdf_asdf_asdf> Write (ql:quickload ...
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<eeeeeta> so CL-JSON can serialize my CLOS object to JSON, which is great
<eeeeeta> but how do I go from the JSON object to a CLOS object of a given class?
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<pfdietz> When I read json into CL I first turn it into a tree with cons cells, and then walk that tree building objects. But this is json coming from external sources, not written out by cl-json.
<pfdietz> I also use jsown, which is much faster than cl-json.
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<eeeeeta> ah right
<eeeeeta> yeah, I suspect the answer is gonna end up being "don't use CL-JSON"
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<pfdietz> cl-json has a lot of CLOS-ness in it, I think. Maybe that would be useful for doing what you want? jsown is more spartan.
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<emaczen> What is the preferred paste posting site?
<karlosz> no-defun-allowed: the compiler hangs?
<karlosz> when you interrupt what does it say?
<karlosz> emacszen: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/
<no-defun-allowed> karlosz: It's somewhere in IR1-PHASES.
<karlosz> OK might be a real compiler bug if it never terminates
<no-defun-allowed> Hm, then in SB-C::IR1-OPTIMIZE-PHASE-1.
<no-defun-allowed> It might terminate, I've never let it run long enough though.
<karlosz> yes, it would be more believable if it were just very slow
<no-defun-allowed> It does compile after about 50 seconds on my laptop.
<karlosz> do you know how to use sb-aprof? could you profile the compiler compiling it?
<no-defun-allowed> Sure.
<no-defun-allowed> Looks like it's mostly doing type inference, like scymtym said it would be.
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<no-defun-allowed> Wait, sb-aprof or sb-sprof?
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<karlosz> uh, sprof
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<karlosz> its probably too tricky to do aprof on the compiler
<no-defun-allowed> Right. (I don't appear to have aprof on my laptop.)
<karlosz> weird, its a contrib
<no-defun-allowed> Hrm, I should install my SBCL over Ubuntu's SBCL (or just start SLIME with my SBCL, I guess). That seems to go badly when I have dependencies like Maxima which I installed from apt though.
<karlosz> i think its easier to have quicklisp handle those things
<karlosz> anyway, type prop should not take that long
<no-defun-allowed> There's no sb-aprof in my contrib directory. Is it new?
<jamzattack> this is where it's located for me: /usr/share/sbcl-source/src/code/aprof.lisp
<emaczen> https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1646#1646 -- passing C Structs via libffi in SBCL
<emaczen> Isn't there overall interest in this problem?
<karlosz> ah i'm getting the allocation profiler mixed up with the precise profiler
<no-defun-allowed> Right.
<no-defun-allowed> Yeah, I wouldn't know what to trace.
<karlosz> you could trace SB-C
<emaczen> fiddlerwoaroof_: We've talked about this problem before
<pjb> emaczen: currently termbin: #!/bin/bash \n nc termbin.com 9999 | tr -d '\000'
<pjb>
<pjb>
<pjb>
<no-defun-allowed> SB-C? How do you trace a package?
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<emaczen> Is there still a bounty for the more general problem?
<karlosz> no-defun-allowed: iterate of over the package symbols
<no-defun-allowed> Oh, I tried something like that (but probably too stupidly) and crashed SBCL.
<karlosz> yeah, that's why it's difficult
<karlosz> emacszen: what are you describing?
<no-defun-allowed> "SB-C::%%ALLOCATE-CLOSURES can not be encapsulated" Should I just ignore these?
<no-defun-allowed> Yep, crashed again.
<karlosz> yeah, you don't want to profile stuff that look like functions but aren't actually functions
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<karlosz> i don't think instrumentation profiling on the compiler will work until the compiler is divided up into packages
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<LdBeth> I think it's the strategy used in chicken scheme
<no-defun-allowed> I think Chicken uses part 2, aka "Cheney on the MTA".
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<LdBeth> Is currently any Common Lisp able to allocate closure on stack?
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<no-defun-allowed> Does the technique described in that paper let you allocate closures on the stack?
<no-defun-allowed> I haven't heard of any that do.
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<LdBeth> *no-defun-allowed*: yes, also ALGOL and Pascal do so by default because they limited the use of nested function
<LdBeth> so does Rust
<no-defun-allowed> Sure, they don't let you return functions (IIRC).
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<econdudeawesome> Hi all. I've become interested in learning lisp, but the ecosystem seems pretty complex. Any pointers on where to start?
<asdf_asdf_asdf> Yes, use (describe 'defun) or (inspect ....
<econdudeawesome> I'm more at the "what are packages friendly to new users" stage :)
<econdudeawesome> Thanks LdBeth, will ready
<econdudeawesome> read*
<no-defun-allowed> asdf_asdf_asdf: Lurk harder, please.
<asdf_asdf_asdf> What's mean "lurk harder"?
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<LdBeth> econdudeawesome: the link I post introduce ASDF and Quicklisp, they're the tools you need to install any (modern) CL libraries though
<karlosz> LdBeth: SBCL, CMUCL, and the commercial Lisp's
<karlosz> at lesat
<karlosz> at least these
<no-defun-allowed> Hrm, you can search for a topic in https://www.cliki.net/ and get a list of libraries that relate to it.
<emaczen> econdudeawesome: https://www.cliki.net/Getting%20Started
<econdudeawesome> Yall rick!
<econdudeawesome> rock*
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<econdudeawesome> I'm a data scientist and have spent time in Python and C. I've always heard about Lisp but never thought about diving in. Seems like Julialang is an attempt to recreate it, figured it is worth the time investment to learn it
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<LdBeth> karlosz: Seems SBCL requires a explicit (declare (dynamic-extent
<karlosz> yes, you can't stack allocate any old closure
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<karlosz> LdBeth: what kind of behavior are you expecting?
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<LdBeth> karlosz: using stack allocation majority of time if do so won't cause trouble
<karlosz> LdBeth: how is the compiler supposed to know if it won't cause trouble if you don't declare?
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<karlosz> in common lisp functions can be redefined so you can't infer past function boundraries
<aeth> actually
<karlosz> SBCL does do a very limited amount of inference for standard library functions
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<LdBeth> karlosz: ah, I see
<aeth> SBCL doesn't infer past file boundaries. It does infer past function boundaries. C-c C-k (file compile) is safer than C-c C-c (form compile) because of this. Sometimes you get issues with C-c C-c in Emacs+SBCL, although it's rare. I've only ever encountered it when a function returns a constant string and you change the length of the string and now it gets a (string 64) instead of a (string 63) that it expected.
<aeth> It would cause actual things like crashes unless it was (safety 0) though
<aeth> s/would cause/wouldn't cause/
<aeth> You just get a type error when there's safety
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