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<sjl>
Happy new year from the East Coast of the US!
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<beach>
Good morning everyone! And a happy new year!
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<smokeink>
Happy New Year
<jeosol>
Happy New Year to everyone here. Still 30 mins for my TZ
<ebrasca>
Morning beach!
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<loke>
wow
<beach>
What?
<loke>
I made the mistake of looking at c.l.l just now... That WJ guy (changed name now though) is _still_ posting the same garbage. I cannot believe a human can be that insane. But if it's not a human, it's a quite decent AI.
<no-defun-allowed>
Whom?
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<ck_>
no-defun-allowed: just randomly sample comp.lang.lisp and you'll probably find one of their posts
<loke>
The guy who keeps posting replies to decades-old posts with answers in any language except for Lisp.
<ck_>
it's mostly necroposting with 'solutions' like "in racket: <some code>"
<ck_>
I'm impressed with the persistence as well, quite the long game
<loke>
He's been doing it for years, plenty of posts every single day. I would love to know what kind of broken mindis behind it.
<no-defun-allowed>
Robert L?
<loke>
Yeah
<loke>
that's the most recent name he uses
<loke>
He changes once in a while because people block him
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<no-defun-allowed>
Usenet sounds like a weird place honestly.
<ck_>
from their perspective, the same goes for things like slack, discord, or "internet forums"
* no-defun-allowed
is too young to say "kids these days", but says
<no-defun-allowed>
Kids these days...
<ck_>
reads like "people like me these days"
<shka_>
people are weird
<ck_>
but yes, that's an eternal observation
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<shka_>
what a complex and mysterious creatures they are
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<shka_>
does anybody here has a setup in emacs that will send-notify when slime debugger window pops up in emacs?
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<antoszka>
probably more of a #lispcafe topic, though, sorry
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<boeg>
Can anyone recommend a good code base (for learning purposes) that effectively uses conditions and return values where it makes sense to handle errors? I'm look to get a better grasp of when/what/how of error handling in lisp and I've read a lot of literature but what like to see some concrete examples
<boeg>
would*
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<beach>
boeg: furthermore, you must then handle the error in intermediate functions, like if A calls B and B calls C, C detects an error that B does not what to do with, but A does, then B must still look at the return value and return it to A.
<beach>
boeg: So for simple things, call ERROR in the function that detects the error situation and use HANDLER-CASE in the function that (directly or indirectly) invoked the function that detects the error.
<beach>
For more sophisticated situations, provide one or more restarts in the function that detects the error, letting the caller choose a restart so that execution can continue.
<boeg>
beach: Yes, what I meant was a code base that is good at returning values where it makes sense and using conditions what that makes sense
<beach>
As I recall, PCL has an example of that.
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<beach>
It never makes sense to use return values to indicate error situations.
<boeg>
not as in using return values for errors
<boeg>
indeed
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<beach>
Then almost any code base will do, because they all return values and they all handle errors.
<boeg>
a function should either return something or it should "throw" a condition
<beach>
"signal". Not "throw".
<boeg>
sure, but can you recommend a good code base that are good at doing it "properly"? That is maybe not too big but neither trivial
<boeg>
ah, thats the word
<beach>
THROW is a function in Common Lisp, but it doesn't have anything to do with error handling.
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<boeg>
you know, i'd like to study a code base that is of good quality but not too big that the size will be a hindrance for the actual goal
<beach>
You can look at Cluffer if you like. It is pretty well organized if I may say so myself.
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<boeg>
thanks, i'll check it out
<beach>
Let me know if you have any questions.
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<boeg>
sure, will do
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<beach>
You can also read chapter 19 of PCL.
<minion>
boeg: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<beach>
minion: Please tell boeg about PCL.
<boeg>
beach: thanks ill give it a look
<boeg>
can you link me to cluffer? Not sure I can find it
<beach>
Sure, hold on...
<boeg>
googling is not of much help for "common lisp cluffer"
<beach>
boeg: Cluffer has good comments, reasonable documentation, and tests.
<boeg>
cool, i'm sure ill learn something from it
<boeg>
beach: is cluffer used in any text editor i might know of?
<beach>
Not in any that is finished yet.
<beach>
... as far as I know.
<beach>
But it is central to Second Climacs (which is not finished yet).
<boeg>
second climacs, I'll check it out
<beach>
I recommend you not try to execute it.
<boeg>
he ok
<boeg>
beach: sounds like a cool project
<beach>
Thanks.
<beach>
All my projects are "cool" I hope. :)
<boeg>
ha :P
<boeg>
beach: is it usable? As in do you use it?
<boeg>
just out of curiosity. Not gonna try building it or anything :p
<beach>
Second Climacs? No, not yet.
<boeg>
ok
<beach>
(first) Climacs works. But I am not using it. It is not good enough.
<boeg>
alright
<beach>
The plan is for Second Climacs to be so good for editing Common Lisp that I don't need to use Emacs for that anymore.
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<boeg>
right - so its goal is not so "universal" as what emacs (can be used for) ?
<beach>
Right, I won't have the energy for that.
<boeg>
like some use emacs for everything for writing software, to email, to browsing and so on because it can be used as a kinda lisp machine
<boeg>
alright
<pjb>
boeg: you could try to find a system that has a lot of define-condition.
<beach>
We are also working on other components of an IDE for Common Lisp, like a debugger (Clordane, embryonic for now), inspector Clouseau (by scymtym, very complete), etc.
<jebes>
is there an active common lisp editor project?
<beach>
jebes: Several, I think. I know loke is working on one.
<jebes>
i just found lem
<boeg>
beach: sounds cool, although I dunno if I would be interested in such a thing. What I like about emacs is that its an environment that understands (a) lisp so I can do whatever with it, like programming common lisp in it or taking notes and so on. I'm not interested in a "common lisp editor". I'm probably not the target though
<beach>
jebes: That's another one, yes.
<boeg>
pjb: thanks, ill check it out!
<beach>
boeg: You will change your mind when you discover what I can do. :)
<boeg>
beach: what can you do?
<beach>
I mean, with the editor.
<boeg>
right
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<boeg>
i guess my question is this
<didi>
What should be the result of (let ((x 42)) (mapcar (lambda (x) (declare (ignore x)) x) '(1 2 3)))?
<boeg>
is it an editor in an environment where you can program the environment live by evaluating things in the editor?
<beach>
boeg: metamodular.com/second-climacs.pdf
<jebes>
is that elisp or or cl, didi?
<didi>
jebes: Common Lisp.
<pjb>
didi: declarations are optional. A good implementation would signal a compile-time warning that a variable is not ignored as declared.
<jebes>
i imagine the result should be 1 2 3 with what pjb said
<didi>
pjb: But shouldn't X be bind to 42?
<pjb>
Definitely not (42 42 42) in any case.
<didi>
I see.
<pjb>
didi: but it was a good question, semantically it could have been meaningful.
<boeg>
beach: you should show me instead
<boeg>
beach: like with a short video
<boeg>
show me what you can do with second climacs :9
<beach>
I can't since it is not finished.
<boeg>
ah
<boeg>
of course
<boeg>
i am checking the document though, no worries
<jebes>
is climacs your project, beach?
<pjb>
didi: ccl gives: ;Compiler warnings :
<pjb>
; In an anonymous lambda form inside an anonymous lambda form: Variable x not ignored.
<pjb>
; In an anonymous lambda form: Unused lexical variable x
<pjb>
<boeg>
beach: what is eta? If there is one
<pjb>
didi: The first x is the parameter, the second x is the let variable.
<didi>
pjb: SBCL also spills similar warnings.
<beach>
jebes: Yes, both (first) Climacs and Second Climacs.
<jebes>
beach:
<jebes>
is the github repo the active one?
<beach>
boeg: Hard to say, I am working on SICL right now.
<beach>
jebes: For Second Climacs it is, yes.
<boeg>
alright
<beach>
boeg: But SICL is necessary for the complete Second Climacs because I plan to compile the buffer at typing speed.
<boeg>
right, sounds cool!
<jebes>
ambitious...
<boeg>
I'll have to keep an eye on it for sure
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<didi>
Should I use `assert' for sanity checks? For example, X must be a list of length 1 at this point; there is no fixing if it is not.
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<beach>
ASSERT is fine for that.
<didi>
beach: Thank you.
<beach>
But only as a tool for the developer.
<didi>
Yes, that's my intent here.
<beach>
OK.
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<pjb>
minion: memo for didi: note that CL:ASSERT let you fix the problem: Try: (let ((list (list 1 2 3))) (assert (= 1 (length list)) (list) "should be a list of 1 element")) and select the restart that let you enter a new value for LIST.
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell didi when he/she/it next speaks.
<jebes>
minion: singular they uber alles my duderion
<minion>
watch out, you'll make krystof angry
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<aeth>
I'd prefer CHECK-TYPE to ASSERT if it can be expressed as a type in a reasonable way (so e.g. not a SATISFIES type).
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<aeth>
For list length, maybe ASSERT is the most straightforward, but for vector length, a CHECK-TYPE is the most readable and concise.
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<rumbler31>
sorry for the noob question, but I want to return a specific value from a loop once it is complete
<rumbler31>
the "finally" verb simply executes its form
<johnjay>
rumbler31: sounds like a job for progn
<rumbler31>
well, you mean stuff a return form in a finally statement?
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<aeth>
:finally (return ...)
<rumbler31>
oh man. I forgot about that I keep thinking about return in loops as the return verb and forgetting that function call
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<pjb>
rumbler31: just don't forget that lisp is orthogonal!
<rumbler31>
What do you mean
<jebes>
everything is meant to tie together, there isn't arbitary differences like statements vs expressions
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<nirved>
rumbler31: still doing advent of code?
<pjb>
rumbler31: that means that loop doesn't return. return returns. If you want to return from a loop you must combine loop and return.
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<rumbler31>
but there is a loop keyword called return, I meant
<rumbler31>
nirved: yes.
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<nirved>
rumbler31: how is it going? which day are you at?
<rumbler31>
day 4. I worked back through 3 and got the right answer
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<rumbler31>
day 4 part 2. the wording isn't clear but I think they are trying to say that there must be at least one pair that is only a pair, even if there are other matching digits of any length
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<nirved>
looks quite clear to me: counting the repeating element, matching if there's a pair, ignoring otherwise
<rumbler31>
part 2 adds a thing
<nirved>
still easy
<rumbler31>
my brain is fried and I'm distracted
<nirved>
a more convolved solution would be to first transform the number to a run-length encoded sequence - i.e. list of (digit repetitions), and work on it
<rumbler31>
that's almost easier to think about
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<pjb>
When you use the loop return, it doesn't execute the finally: (loop return 42 finally (return 33)) #| --> 42 |#
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<Josh_2>
hmm, so I have a problem. I have a thread that is constantly listening for connections, accepting and processing them. How can I kill this thread without ending up with the "address-in-use" error when I attempt to restart the thread on the same ip and port?
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<Josh_2>
hmmm actually maybe I answered my own question
<Josh_2>
I love it when that happens
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<Xach>
Josh_2: was it so_reuseaddr?
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<Josh_2>
usocket:socket-listen has both :reuseaddress and :reuse-address for some reason, but had them both set to t to no avail. Instead I just put the currently listening connection into my server object so I can shut it down when I shut down the server
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<pfdietz>
So should I do more random tests with *check-consistency* enabled?
<pfdietz>
Oops, wrong channel
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<aeth>
the answer is always "yes" to "... more... tests...?"
<aeth>
(assuming there isn't a negation)
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<Lestat9>
whats the easiest lisp program out there?
<Lestat9>
easy to learn
<no-defun-allowed>
The easiest would be a constant, like 2.
<pjb>
Lestat9: "Hello World!"
<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: 0
<aeth>
Always start with 0
<no-defun-allowed>
aeth: :no-u
<Lestat9>
I mean the actual program not a program within lisp
<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: your 2-based indices are an interesting solution to the 0-based vs. 1-based controversy in computing
<Lestat9>
like microsoft visal basic is the program is used to write program
<no-defun-allowed>
aeth: 0 and 1 are both radical extremists, the true solution is for 1/2 to be the starting index for an array.
<pjb>
Lestat9: Clozure CL.app but it's written in Common Lisp so you will discount it.
<no-defun-allowed>
And it's not like anything other than Matlab and Maxima use 1-based indexing.
<Lestat9>
i dont think mircosoft made lisp programming language
<pjb>
There's also emacs, but it's written in emacs lisp, so you will discount it.
<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: I like starting at -1 so you have a spare item in front just in case you want to use it.
<aeth>
RAM's cheap
<pjb>
Lestat9: I guess you could try vim…
<Lestat9>
have you guys followed the ai chess programs?
<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: Quite a few things use 1-based, as diverse as Fortran (iirc) and Lua.
<no-defun-allowed>
People use FORTRAN?
<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: If someone wrote your scientific computation program in 1974 and then retired in 1981 and died in 1987, who would dare touch it to try to rewrite it?
<no-defun-allowed>
:/
<pfdietz>
A lot of old COBOL is being slowly GCed as the companies running the programs eventually die. This can take a while.
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<edgar-rft>
Lestat9: when microsoft started in a garage they didn't have enough money for Lisp, so they bought DOS instead
* no-defun-allowed
would say mulisp is a Lisp implementation by Microsoft but it is not Common Lisp
<Lestat9>
I was teethed on a commodore 64 and in 1984 IBM didnt even have color yet so commodore4 was king...
<Lestat9>
I talked to a girl i dated back then and she reminded me she met me on my BBS i ran on my C64, and jokingly said that was the first internet... and then ui realized it was
<Shinmera>
Lestat9: Please stay on topic.
<Lestat9>
There was a lizard i ran over today by my house
<no-defun-allowed>
Do you want a Lisp implementation to use, or a Lisp program to analyse?
<no-defun-allowed>
(Or both? You could study a Lisp implementation with enough snacks.)
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<pjb>
Lestat9: there's #lispcafe for random ranting.
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<jmercouris>
how much do you have to change a block of code before it is no longer copyrightable?
<jmercouris>
I know this is a legal question, but there's a snippet in my codebase that no longer resembles the original implementation, is that still under copywrite?
<jmercouris>
copyright*
<pjb>
jmercouris: this is a question to ask a judge in an actual suit.
<grobe0ba>
jmercouris: afaik, any modifications YOU make are your IP, and thus copyrightable by you.
<grobe0ba>
however, the original code copyright holds on anything no actually modified.
<grobe0ba>
not of course to include reformatting.
* grobe0ba
is not a lawyer, just reads too much stuff
<jmercouris>
the only things that are the same are a couple of method names
<grobe0ba>
as pjb said, ask a lawyer.
<pjb>
jmercouris: the technical term is derived work. Notice how you can take a book, change every sentences of it, and still get a derived work. For example, when translating.
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<jmercouris>
that's true
<duuqnd>
I mean, it's technically probably maybe still owned by the author but if it doesn't even resemble the original you're probably safe as long as you don't tell anyone.
<jmercouris>
I guess this would be drived work
<pjb>
jmercouris: so even if you rewrite the whole software, even in a different language for a different system, you could still fall under the derived work category and own all your profit to the original author.
<jmercouris>
well, the original author did release under a BSD type license...
<jmercouris>
I'll just leave the copyright notice in anyways, even though it does not seem relevant anymore
<jmercouris>
it doesn't hurt I guess
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<grobe0ba>
jmercouris: just add your own above it in the file, and you're covered.
<jmercouris>
OK, will do, thanks
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