<asdf_asdf_asdf>
What mean in Common Lisp [SBCL], (declaim (inline ..., and notinline. I (desassemble it, and I got exactly the same result without origin.
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<aeth>
Don't dissemble the function itself, disassemble a trivial caller of the function (defun foo () (the-possibly-inline-function))
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<aeth>
And you'll have to recompile FOO after you recompile THE-POSSIBLY-INLINE-FUNCTION as inline or notinline (depending on which was first)
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<aeth>
(And also after every time you change what the inline function says)
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<asdf_asdf_asdf>
aeth, sorry for writes so late, but I can't check it. How check, that function is more efficient or not? In (disassemble I not saw a differents.
<aeth>
asdf_asdf_asdf: +/inline and +/notinline look identical to each other, but a (using the notinline version) calls +/notinline with 1.0 and 2.0 while b (using the inline verison) probably is compiled to return 3.0 because an optimizing compiler can turn the constant (+ 1f0 2f0) into 3f0
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<aeth>
As an aside, "3f0" is the same as "3.0f0" which is probably the same as "3.0", but I put the "f0" to ensure it's single-float because you can configure it to default to double-float and doubles might do weird things.
<aeth>
If I used integers, you'd probably see something that doesn't match what you expect, e.g. in SBCL, "1" is going to disassemble to "2" and "3" is going to disassemble to "6"
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<aeth>
asdf_asdf_asdf: inline doesn't always make things more efficient. You probably don't want to inline unless it's trivial, like my example. If you have to redefine an inline function, you're not going to update the callers, which is a debugging nightmare.
<aeth>
asdf_asdf_asdf: You probably shouldn't inline anything at all. Get your code to work first.
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<LdBeth>
what should I do if I want a macro defined works like progn that the eval-when definitions are treated as if they're toplevel
<aeth>
(As for the inevitable objections to responding to asdf's issue here that will probably pop up in 15 hours... if I don't answer, a bunch of misinformation about inlining is probably going to be spread.)
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<LdBeth>
or should I avoid to do so and always lift these definitions out to toplevel?
<aeth>
LdBeth: can you rephrase that? I don't quite understand
<LdBeth>
I'm currently playing with a theorem prover written in CL, it has some custom module system, and it can define lisp functions/macros inside the module definition
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<LdBeth>
the original author seems doesn't know that defmacro in the same file isn't always evaluated especially using a CL that compiles all files, such as SBCL and CCL
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<LdBeth>
thus creating problems for use with these CLs
<LdBeth>
moving the macro outside the module definition and add eval-when make the library loads without problem
<LdBeth>
but I would not like since it breaks the style of writing module
<aeth>
interesting problem
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<LdBeth>
it's bourbaki on Quicklisp btw
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<asdf_asdf_asdf34>
aeth, thank You very much. Inline is in CL by default. First code have 51 bytes and contains jumps conditions jmp, etc. instruction. While second code with inline not contains jumps and calls instructions is size smaller and usually faster.
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<asdf_asdf_asdf34>
Size second is 33 bytes. 51 - 33 = 18 bytes differents.
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<pjb>
aeth: notinline declaration doesn't prevent inlining the function, notably if it's also declared inline and it's in the same compilation unit as the caller.
<pjb>
notinline is not (not inline).
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<asarch>
In CLHS, is there any diagram showing the relation between standard classes?
<pjb>
asarch: nope, there's no diagram in CLHS.
<asarch>
Thank you
<pjb>
asarch: for each class, it is given its class precedence list.
<pjb>
For example, for integer, Class Precedence List: integer, rational, real, number, t
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<pjb>
asarch: more interesting: for System Class NULL, Class Precedence List: null, symbol, list, sequence, t
<asarch>
Do you know any tool to "build" the relationship in real time from the implementation (a la com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:draw-list)?
<pjb>
Note that not all symbols are lists. Only NIL (of class NULL) is a LIST. This is multiple inheritance.
<pjb>
But the real time relationship is not interesting, for CL classes, since some arcs and some classes are implementation dependent. You want a diagram showing the standard classes and types.
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<asarch>
Thank you very much once again :-)
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<asarch>
I remember back old days of the first Borland C++ for Windows 3.1 IDE that it had an option to show the relationships between classes (including those in the STL)
<aeth>
pjb: my bad
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<aeth>
asarch: the issue with looking into CL implementations is that if you step one too far you're going to see implementation-specific internals
<aeth>
asarch: additionally, elaborate class hierarchies are generally not in style anymore in the OOP community
<aeth>
pjb: of course the messy part is gray streams :-p
<pjb>
Don't ask yourself what you should not do, ask yourself what you can do!
<pjb>
Styles are fads. They go and pass…
<aeth>
pjb: yes, but it helps explain why the answer to a "Is there a <thing that went out of style>?" question is often no
<pjb>
aeth: in Javascript, there are no class, so no class hierarchy, so no deep class hierarchy. That doesn't prevent you to make prototype chains long as the arm of the galaxy…
* Odin-
notes that pjb is not an ethicist.
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<mfiano>
I'm having a hard time understanding the docstring for uiop:define-package. Is there option that mirror's defpackage-plus's :inherit-from (Import SYMBOLS from PACKAGE, and also export them)? I don't want any merging by shadowing, or to import/export all external symbols. I want to grab a select number of symbols from some package, import them, and re-export them. I'm trying to define a reduced user
<mfiano>
API package from an internal package, and do not wish to bring in defpackage-plus for this.
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<mfiano>
I literally want the equivalent of if I used some :IMPORT-FROMs followed by :EXPORTs with the same symbols. I'm finalizing the API for a project more than 10 years in progress, and there are hundreds of symbols across a few dozen packages, and I want to ensure there is symmetry between the imports and exports.
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
What mean's "I want to grab a select number of symbols from some package,"?
<mfiano>
^
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<asdf_asdf_asdf>
You want get symbol about given number without probe others symbols?
<mfiano>
I want to know uiop's equivalent of defpackage-plus's :INHERIT-FROM
<mfiano>
(if there is one)
<mfiano>
I don't know how to be any more clear than that.
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<asdf_asdf_asdf>
mfiano, You mean :use keyword in CL?
<mfiano>
No, not at all.
<mfiano>
:use causes all external symbols to be inherited as internal symbols. there is no selection of the symbols as with :import-from, and there is absolutely no exporting of them. I want to import a select subset as I mentioned, while also exporting that select subset.
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
LInk put, please to :INHERIT-FROM.
<aeth>
mfiano: so you basically want an import-from-reexport like use-reexport?
<mfiano>
ignore the query please. This time wasted could have just been spent writing a macro (many times over) to do the IMPORT/EXPORT calls myself to be symmetric.
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<asarch>
In JavaScript there is also the String class, so, when you do something like let name = "asarch"; 'name' automatically is an instance of that class (you can also do "asarch".toUpperCase()). Is it the same with Common Lisp with the INTEGER class? e.g. (let ((dogs 3)) ...) <- Is 'dogs' an instance of that class? If not, what is INTEGER for?
<no-defun-allowed>
Uh, yes, an integer is an instance of the INTEGER class.
<aeth>
asarch: (string-upcase "asarch") and (let ((name "asarch")) (string-upcase name))
<aeth>
asarch: there is no dot notation in CL, those could be implemented as methods or anything else.
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<aeth>
asarch: You can however write your own
<no-defun-allowed>
And the value of DOGS is an integer there, but DOGS is not an integer. DOGS is a symbol.
<aeth>
Some things are already generic, particularly around numbers and sequences, but they are not generic in the same sense of DEFGENERIC/DEFMETHOD so you can't extend them. e.g. MAP or +
<aeth>
What is the difference between "1 + 1" and "1.+(1)" and "(+ 1 1)"? Just syntax.
<aeth>
+ can even mix types and take arbitrary lengths, like (+ 1 1/2 1.0f0 1.0d0)
<aeth>
Oh and +(1, 1) is another thing that's totally valid, but probably no programming language uses it
<no-defun-allowed>
Prolog?
<aeth>
asarch: The next thing you're probably wondering is "Why are some things generic and some not?" and it's probably a mix of "performance" and "the non-generic form was already in the standard library of predecessor Lisps since the 70s"
<mfiano>
+ is generic also in the fact that it is also a variable with completely different semantics :)
<aeth>
asarch: Arithmetic and sequence operations have to be generic out of necessity because there are quite a few numeric types and quite a few sequence types
<mfiano>
You mean thee are 2 sequence types.
<aeth>
mfiano: Depends on how far you take it. A non-generic Lisp would probably split up vectors into quite a few different kinds of vectors. I know this because Scheme does.
<asarch>
Well, I mean, if (let ((german-shepherd 10)) ...) and (let ((chihuahua (make-instance 'integer)) ...), 'german-shepherd' and 'chihuahua' are actually not the same type, right?
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<mfiano>
That is not valid CL
<no-defun-allowed>
Yeah, you cannot define a standard class named CL:INTEGER, and you cannot use make-instance on a built-in class.
<no-defun-allowed>
The first sentence is the most important one here: some built-in classes, such as INTEGER, would be silly to represent with standard instances.
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<no-defun-allowed>
(You can do some implementation-level tricks like fitting a fixnum into a pointer, and the class will never have to be updated, unless something very big happens in mathematics.)
<aeth>
asarch: If it bothers you, sometimes there are MAKE-FOOs instead of MAKE-INSTANCE 'FOOs in APIs, so it wouldn't be that out of place to have a MAKE-INTEGER, just like MAKE-ARRAY and MAKE-LIST. There isn't a MAKE-INTEGER, but at least you can define one yourself. It would be hard to be useful, though, because you'd probably need to provide it an integer.
<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: well, (make-integer) would probably default to returning 0, and could have a use in certain macros
<asarch>
I see
<aeth>
I guess to be somewhat useful, MAKE-INTEGER could attempt to coerce to an integer, but even then you probably want to choose how to do it, e.g. FLOOR, CEILING, TRUNCATE, ROUND, etc.
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<aeth>
asarch: But it's not too unusual to say "if X exists, why doesn't Y exist?" and write some trivial functions/macros in a utility library to give your own code some more consistency
<no-defun-allowed>
STRING= is case sensitive, and you don't need the STRING forms around those strings.
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<asarch>
Ok
<aeth>
string-equal is the case insensitive version if that's what you want
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<aeth>
At least on my implementation (let* ((x "hello") (y (string x))) (eq x y)) is T so it's smart enough to realize that it should do nothing in that case. In other implementations, that might create a copy. If for some reason you want to reliably create a copy, then COPY-SEQ should be used.
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<aeth>
But needing to use constructors is a very Java thing
<aeth>
You shouldn't come into CL with a Java mindset
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<asarch>
Yeah, I know. I just was wondering about it :-)
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<pjb>
mfiano: but usually, it doesn't matter if you use (and not import a selection), for those kinds of packages, since they're designed to be used themselves, vs. in-package them.
<frodef>
does anyone happen to know if it's possible to make erc more resilient to losing server connection?
<pjb>
frodef: it already reconnects. and rejoins. What more do you want?
<pjb>
The problem is more in the irc server/protocol, that your nick is not freed quickly. So if you reconnect too soon, you cannot re-use it simply.
<beach>
That is not my experience.
<pjb>
You may have to discuss with nickserv to release and re-authenticate with your nick
<_death>
you can also use a bouncer
<pjb>
That's where all those quit/join messages come from sometimes. You computer goes to sleep, connection is lost, the computer awakes, because, you know, it's a unix system and it has stuff to do periodically, and erc reconnects. And again… Then when you come back in the morning, you have users complaining about your quit/join messages and asking you to check your network connection.
<pjb>
frodef: so perhaps preventing the computer to sleep would be a step. On macOS, there's caffeinate(1), so I suppose there's some API for it.
<pjb>
frodef: probably you want _death's suggestion, however…
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<frodef>
My problem is not so much losing connection when the laptop goes to sleep, which is quite understandable. But every once in a while inbetween too. I suspect it's todo with my home router's NAT or something like that.
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<_death>
a bouncer would at least keep a message log and replay it when you reconnect
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<beach>
frodef: What are the plans for a 64-bit version of Movitz, other than the 64-bit part?
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<frodef>
I have some (still rather vague) ideas for run-time design I want to explore.
<beach>
Are those ideas written down somewhere?
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<frodef>
beach: no
<beach>
Do you have any plans to write them down before you start implementing them?
<beach>
It would be interesting to read.
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<Odin->
Xach: You might want to add something to that discussion.
<Xach>
Odin-: thanks
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<sabrac>
Hmm. (code-char 11) under ccl is #\PageUp Under sbcl, cmucl, ecl, abcl and clisp it is #\Vt
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<kmeow>
it's #\Vt in clisp, sbcl, and ecl for me
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<kmeow>
oh #\PageUp in ccl
<sabrac>
Yes. #\VT is correct. Why is ccl an outlier?
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<sabrac>
(char-code #\Vt) in ccl will return 11 as it should. So just (code-char) is wrong in ccl
<grewal>
It's essentially the same. Moving a page up is a vertical tab
<grewal>
In ccl, (eq #\Vt #\PageUp) ; => T
<Nilby>
The character name PageUp is historical from old Macintosh which had a not exactly ASCII encoding.
<sabrac>
Unicode is messy enough without synonyms at the lisp implementation level
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<pfdietz>
The standard does not specify very many character names.
<Nilby>
It's called "LINE TABULATION" in unicode.
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<Nilby>
Or no name really.
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<Nilby>
Just don't confuse #\bel with #\bell.
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<sabrac>
writing a NFKC normalisation function. Currently 195 failures out of 75280 tests. Slowly getting there. Learning lots.
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<sabrac>
at least ccl and sbcl are agreeing on my failures
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<beach>
sabrac: Sounds like a good project. We need more Unicode-related tools.
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<sabrac>
beach: I need it for scram-sha-256 authentication in postmodern. Messing up people's passwords would not be acceptable
<beach>
I see.
<sabrac>
I will break it out in a separate library for general use
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<sabrac>
will also do nfd and nfc normalisation as well
<beach>
Great!
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<Odin->
Huh.
* Odin-
was doing the same. :)
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<sabrac>
Odin-: I have more confidence in your version (sight unseen) - You know a lot more about this space than I do
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<Odin->
sabrac: I'm a hobby programmer who's had reason to look more closely at character encoding than is sane; never really worked on any of the algorithms before. :p
<Odin->
(I happen to have studied history at university, in a country where there's a fair bit of concern with medieval manuscripts and their preservation. Letter for letter, that is.)
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<beach>
sabrac, Odin-: Perhaps you would be interested in creating a pure Common Lisp version of HarfBuzz?
<Odin->
That's rather a bigger undertaking. :p
<beach>
We could use such a thing for McCLIM text applications.
<beach>
Yes, but there are two of you. :)
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<beach>
I fully understand if you reject my suggestion, of course.
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<slyrus_>
beach: I think we need something like that for the McCLIM PDF backend
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<Shinmera>
beach: I've been working towards a text layouting engine.
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<beach>
Shinmera: Oh, excellent! I had no idea.
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<Odin->
beach: I'm hesitant to ask, but ... if FFIing to pango or harfbuzz not a feasible thing?
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<jackdaniel>
Odin-: we have alternative freetype renderer which delegates things to harfbuzz
<jackdaniel>
native version otoh works i.e on mezzano
<jackdaniel>
also, currently native ttf render (possibly because it doesn't do shaping, but still), is around 40-80x faster in benchmarks
<jackdaniel>
we could make a bounty for a good shaping implementation in the cl truetype renderer
<jackdaniel>
n.b: if anyone is interested in implementing that and in a bounty, please contact me. there is none yet.
<jackdaniel>
s/there is none yet/there is no bounty so far for this particular feature/
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<pjb>
sabrac: note that different implementations can use different names for the unicode "characters" too. clisp gives often "better" and more names, since it uses libiconv (IIRC). A lot of implementations just use \uABCD as name for a lot of "characters"…
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<Xach>
/win
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