p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | ASDF 3.3.4
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<madrik> It seems to me that Racket and the group behind it may be somewhat what amerlyq is looking for
<madrik> pjb: And those links are indeed great reading.
<aeth> It's hard to find a good example of type system usage because the syntax is a bit awkward in vanilla Lisp, so pretty much anyone who heavily relies on types will use a macro, probably their own.
<aeth> And e.g. (unsigned-byte 32) is pretty verbose, even though it's the most general purpose way to do it, so if you have a bunch of integer sizes in your code, you're probably using shorthand names (and the only conventional one is octet for ub 8)
<aeth> So that's probably why it becomes hard to see through
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<pjb> aeth: the CL type system is a good example of a type system: (+ 1 "42") #| ERROR: The value "42" is not of the expected type number. |#
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<aeth> pjb: CL is one of the most typed dynamically typed languages because (1) it's not a coercive language like you said and (2) it's not particularly duck typed either
<aeth> plus, it's effectively 'gradually typed' about 15-20 years before it was cool
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<aeth> (by #2 I mean, most things are for a given type or an error)
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<LdBeth> Plus, type systems that are not capable of expressing abstract algebra suck
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<Odin-> From the documentation, it looks like CMUCL/SBCL put a lot more emphasis on working with the type system than most (all?) other implementations.
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<p_l> Odin-: CMU originally did big push in type system for purposes of optimalization
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<amerlyq> Odin-: did you found any nice looking example of using typesystem by CMUCL/SBCL ?
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<alandipert> do any emacs users know if it's possible to specify the lisp-mode syntax of def* forms introduced in a Lisp file, using file-local variables or similar mechanism?
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<Xach> alandipert: i don't know how to do it locally, only globally for the mode.
<splittist> alandipert: trivial-indent?
<alandipert> Xach thanks, i'm in the same boat. i found https://stackoverflow.com/a/4356877 but involves Eval:
<alandipert> splittist thanks, i'll look into it
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<alandipert> although hm, looks like trivial-indent is a SLIME thing, and i'm not using SLIME
<splittist> <sharp intake of breath>
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<splittist> Which highly obvious library translated from html entities to (nonstandard) lisp characters?
<splittist> s/translated/translates/
<Shinmera> plump does that
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<Shinmera> Colleen: look up plump decode-entities
<Colleen> Function plump-dom:decode-entities https://shinmera.github.io/plump#FUNCTION%20PLUMP-DOM%3ADECODE-ENTITIES
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<splittist> Shinmera: ! Thankyou!
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<Shinmera> haven't had time to look at my feeds today
<Shinmera> oh I see, easy fix.
<Shinmera> will get to it after dinner.
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<Shinmera> Xach: should be good.
<Xach> thanks
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<Xach> I want to reach out to David Psenicka about FOMUS's inability to build, but i can't find any recent contact info.
<sjl_> Xach: question about quicklisp: since bitbucket is ending Mercurial support I've moved my repos to my own self-hosted location. What's the easiest way for me to get the new URLs into quicklisp-projects? Open tickets for each project? Open one big ticket? PR quicklisp-projects myself?
<Xach> sjl_: a pr is probably the easiest for me in this case.
<sjl_> Xach: Okay, I'll send one later this week. Thanks.
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<d4ryus> alandipert: You can also put a property with the 'def*' name into [common-]lisp-indent-function, for example in your .dir-locals.el: (eval . (put 'define-something 'lisp-indent-function 2)) => define-something has 2 arguments, followed by the 'body'
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<d4ryus> alandipert: haven't seen it much on common-lisp projects, but most guile projects often use them, for example guile itself: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guile.git/tree/.dir-locals.el , works with any lisp tho :)
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<edgar-rft> Xach: people using the old CL versions of Common Music, FOMUS, etc can be found on the cmdist@ccrma.Stanford.EDU mailing list
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<developernotes> Earlier this month I had posted about the idea of a state of Common Lisp survey for 2020 on reddit. I received positive feedback on the idea.
<developernotes> I have posted an update on reddit here for the survey: https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/f8wqkj/state_of_common_lisp_survey_2020/
<developernotes> Here is a direct link to the survey:
<developernotes> Thanks!
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<alandipert> d4ryus thank you
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<Odin-> developernotes: Where's that list of licences from?
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<jackdaniel> I remember I've seen a presentation about using KCL to write a game a few years back on some old console (commercial setting), but it was too slow, so they were transpiling source and then modifying it by hand
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<jackdaniel> anyone remembers something like this? even better - does anyone have a link to this presentation?
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<developernotes> Odin-: I used this as the source for license names: https://opensource.org/licenses/alphabetical
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<Odin-> developernotes: https://spdx.org/licenses/ is more exhaustive, although I suspect it'd be best to have free-form text there.
* Odin- just noticed that both CC0 and WTFPL were missing...
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<develope1notes> Odin-: thanks, I've added CC0 and WTFPL to the list. I can adjust the overall list for next year.
<Odin-> Excellent. :)
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<metabyt[m]> developernotes: done :)
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<no-defun-allowed> Sorry to effectively repeat what was said half an hour ago, but the Cooperative Software License isn't on the list and that's what I've been using for my last few serious projects.
<no-defun-allowed> But that's used by exactly 4 projects on GitHub, so it's probably not statistics-worthy.
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<Odin-> Hmm.
<Odin-> DDG seems to have trouble. Have a link?
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<Odin-> Hmm. Technically neither a free software nor open source licence.
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<no-defun-allowed> Pity.
<Odin-> *shrug*
* no-defun-allowed shrugs back
<Odin-> It's a recurrent theme, trying to use licencing to accomplish goals that sit completely outside of what licencing meaningfully can do.
<Odin-> Same for various licences that tried to prevent use in military equipment.
<Odin-> It's ... a noble goal, but really doesn't accomplish a damned thing.
<no-defun-allowed> Yes, I heard that a few licenses can't actually be held, for some reason that I forgot, but probably relates to copyright law.
<no-defun-allowed> In my opinion, they're still much less "out there" than many EULAs for commercial software products, but the publishers of those know lawyers and I don't.
<Odin-> Dunno, the main issue I see here is that "commercial purposes" is differently defined in various jurisdictions.
<Odin-> The local reading here would, for instance, prohibit the use of the software in fundraising for a union.
<no-defun-allowed> Maybe it would help to add a definition of "commercial"?
<z147> creative commons goes over the issues with defining commercial https://wiki.creativecommons.org/wiki/NonCommercial_interpretation
<no-defun-allowed> It would be ironic for a union to not be a "worker-owned collective", which is explicitly allowed in the license. Maybe that needs definition, too.
<z147> One of the issues is the cozy marriage between capitalist governments and enterprise
<Bike> i dig the boldface "we're not trying to be lawyers, please don't kill us bar associations" warnings
<z147> For example, US government giving private contractors access to software licensed under non-commercial could be seen as non-commercial, etc etc
<splittist> If the energy programmers spent on thinking and arguing about software licences was spent on programming...
<Odin-> no-defun-allowed: Unions are generally not 'worker-owned' but some form of "self-owned".
<Bike> we could have THOUSANDS of left pad implementations by now
<Odin-> Otherwise a member leaving would have a claim on the union's resources.
<no-defun-allowed> splittist: Please, it's only been 11 minutes.
<Odin-> splittist: There'd just be something else to argue over. Editors and OS choice, and so on.
<z147> If only the plebs would concentrate on providing maximum value to the masters!
<Bike> well, it is off topic here.
<Bike> hadn't thought about that about union ownership though. good to know
<Odin-> Fair point.
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<stylewarning> anybody have info/tips on running Lisp subprocesses/fork/etc? I don't mean shelling out.
<White_Flame> pretty much the same as C forking, as far as I can tell
<Odin-> That puts you pretty squarely in implementation-defined territory.
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<stylewarning> i was hoping there'd be a nice interface out there for managing child processes and the like
<White_Flame> how often is it used nowadays?
<stylewarning> well truth be told i want to manage python subprocesses
<White_Flame> there are libs for non-forked process management, I think UIOP contains some of that, and some trivial-*
<stylewarning> since the embeddable python interpreter has global state
<White_Flame> uh, so is this a python-in-lisp, or FFI to a C python?
<stylewarning> FFI to cpython
<White_Flame> can python fork itself? might be better to have standalone python do tha
<White_Flame> +t
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<stylewarning> probably it can
<White_Flame> I have no idea what devils lie in the details of the interaction between fork and ffi
<stylewarning> me neither
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<White_Flame> if anything I think our model will have FFI after forking, not before
<Odin-> I would expect to tread carefully, because Common Lisp really doesn't make many concessions to the process model.
<iAmDecim> so quick question. i've definitely had slime working on my macbook before. I just recently tried to start up a repl and I added (load "~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") to my init.el file and it's giving me void-function defpackage
<iAmDecim> i've never seen that before.
<Odin-> Yes. setup.lisp is for the Common Lisp implementation, not Emacs.
<White_Flame> that setup.lisp is for your common lisp startup (eg .sbclrc). it's not emacs lisp
<White_Flame> there are quicklisp helpers to install all that for you; you shouldn't have to do it manually
<White_Flame> just check the docs
<iAmDecim> oh....ok. i took a wrong path. i'll go back. I know years ago I had to add something funny to give it the path. time to do some pruning
<White_Flame> "The function ql:add-to-init-file will add code to do this to your init file automatically, so Quicklisp will load whenever your Common Lisp session starts."
<iAmDecim> got it...i did add-to-init-file but i didn't install slime-helper.
<pjb> 22
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<jmercouris> what's a good way to capture stdout/stderror from a program not launched via terminal?
<jmercouris> is this going to be largely OS specific? is there a tool to make this simpler?
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<White_Flame> iAmDecim: slime-helper is when you get your lisp implementation, then quicklisp, then let ql install slime. If you already have slime, then you don't need the slime helper
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<pjb> minion: memo for jmercouris: stdout/stderr are directed to the same file descriptor as the parent process. So, what does the parent process do to them? (It may redirect them to /dev/null). Inside the child, you can reopen or dup them. What do you want to do?
<minion> Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
<iAmDecim> there we go....no I can play.
<iAmDecim> now*
<iAmDecim> ok it's at least running but has anyone seen these warnings? https://pastebin.com/3cDZeUXu
<White_Flame> you're probably loading 2 versions of slime on top of each other
<White_Flame> (well, 2 versions of swank, the slime backend)
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<iAmDecim> White_Flame: ahh..I bet I am. Checking...I just tried to reinstall slime since it's been years.
<White_Flame> because there are some sb-fm internals that aren't matching, and you're running a newer sbcl version, there's probably an old version of slime
<White_Flame> *sb-vm
<iAmDecim> yeah. i reinstalled slime. Restarting emacs just cut out a large portion of the errors...there's still one block. https://pastebin.com/HYRp0emK
<iAmDecim> but better.....
<iAmDecim> oh i see what you mean now....ok i'll play with that later. i bet i did install sbcl with brew and an older method.
<iAmDecim> I'll play with this tonight. I really need to clean things up anyways on this laptop
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<iAmDecim> ahh I'm learning. updating quicklisp, first day really using common lisp.
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<amnesia1010> come any one see this:
<amnesia1010> A survey of Common Lisp users
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