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<no-defun-allowed>
I don't really know what I'm asking, but how can I change the order in which arguments are used to compute the method list for a generic function?
<no-defun-allowed>
If I have a method with lambda list ((x a) y) and another with (x (y b)), I would want the latter to be used first, but the default appears to use the former first.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Aha, might be :argument-precedence-order.
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<LdBeth>
heloo
<no-defun-allowed>
Hello LdBeth.
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<vivit>
I've had trouble getting quicklisp to work. It installs just fine, but whenever I try to load anything, it tells me that no such system is found.
<beach>
Did you run (ql:register-local-projects)?
<beach>
Or maybe you just want to load projects already in Quicklisp?
<vivit>
No, what does that do?
<vivit>
((ql:register-local-projects), that is; what does that do)
<beach>
If you add a local project to ~/quicklisp/local-projects, Quicklisp does not automatically find it.
<beach>
But again, maybe you are not trying to load a local project?
<beach>
vivit: Does it fail when you try to load a system provided by Quicklisp, or does it fail when you try to load a system defined by yourself?
<vivit>
Provided by quicklisp.
<beach>
OK, so then the register-local-projects is not the problem.
<vivit>
The quicklisp website says that the quickload function "will automatically download any supporting software it needs to load [a] system." I feel like I'm probably making a very silly mistake.
<beach>
And what is it that you do when you get the error message?
<vivit>
(ql:quickload literally-anything)
<beach>
Do you have a directory ~/quicklisp ?
<vivit>
Uh.... hrm. I reinstalled it and it's working now.
<beach>
OK, good.
<vivit>
I have a big manually-curated .asdf/ directory. Is there anything I should do to migrate what I have there to quicklisp?
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<Nilby>
I tossed most of my huge manually-curated asdf directory, and had much fewer links only as needed in quicklisp/loccal-projects.
<White_Flame>
vivit: symlink from local-projects to your .asdf directory
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<White_Flame>
it searches nested directories for .asd files
<White_Flame>
(to be extra clear, add a symlink inside local-projects/, don't make local-projects itself a link)
<m7v21z42>
how do I become badass and write + compile code live, on-the-fly like Baggers does? I love writing lisp, I've studied a few of his videos with CEPL. When it comes to making a project or learning further though, I seem to not fully comprehend lisp just yet
<beach>
Then you need practice. And you need to expose your code and take into account the feedback you get so that your code respects conventions.
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<jmercouris>
Practice makes perfect.
<jmercouris>
There is no universal recipe for how to learn. You will have to figure that out for yourself I am afraid.
<m7v21z42>
is there a good online live runtime compiler / interpreter or something like Pico-8 for rapid testing and learning?
<jmercouris>
One thing is pretty certain though, exposure to source material and practice will likely improve your skills
<jmercouris>
the best way to do live development is via SLIME
<jmercouris>
may I suggest Shinmera's distribution?
<beach>
m7v21z42: You may also need to practice typing, and you might need to know more commands in your editor to make things fast.
<beach>
m7v21z42: Any Common Lisp implementation can be used with Emacs+SLIME and you then have an incremental compiler that will do what you want.
<beach>
m7v21z42: Common Lisp is a "dynamic" (or "interactive") language meaning that the semantics are defined as a suite of interactions, as opposed to "static" (or "batch") languages that have a strict separation between compile time and run time. This feature of Common Lisp is what makes live coding like that possible.
<beach>
m7v21z42: Again, you can do that with any Common Lisp implementation.
<m7v21z42>
thanks for suggesting portacle, seems like a good toolset of what I was already using
<beach>
m7v21z42: Are you already comfortable with using Emacs?
<m7v21z42>
sorta. I have maybe 10 or 20 hours of experience working with it and learning basic important functions
<beach>
OK, then there is a lot of work to be done.
<beach>
Emacs allows for navigation and editing by expressions, as opposed to just characters and words.
<beach>
This feature is used a lot for editing Common Lisp codee.
<beach>
code.
<m7v21z42>
it's hard to remember everything but I'm familiar with the basics
<beach>
You need to start getting comfortable with those commands.
<beach>
That's fine, but the basics won't be enough for your goal.
<jmercouris>
I mean, maybe
<jmercouris>
you can always just use arrow keys and menu bar
<jmercouris>
it will slow you down, but not any more than thinking would anyways
<jmercouris>
my input speed and typing is not what slows me down when programming
<beach>
jmercouris: Not if the objective is supposed to be reached.
<m7v21z42>
I think it is probably better for learning to learn the key command versions
<beach>
jmercouris: You can never get up to speed that way.
<jmercouris>
yeah, I agree it is very slow
<jmercouris>
if they want to be as fast as baggers... they will need to master their tool
<beach>
jmercouris: Things like C-M-a, C-M-e, C-M-f, C-M-b, C-M-t are absolutely necessary to get up too speed with Common Lisp editing.
<jmercouris>
yes, indeed
<jmercouris>
traversing the SEXP rather than the text
<beach>
I also tend to use M-/ a lot, especially if my variable names are long as they usually are in my code.
<jmercouris>
one of my personal favorites is M-r
<beach>
Sure.
<splittist>
m7v21z42: when I want to do something with a new tool, I tell myself to take the time to find the 'right' way to do it (e.g. moving by word or by sexp), then make a note (perhaps on a sticky to be stuck to the monitor) and take the time to use that new way even if it is slower to begin with. After a while your fingers will take over and you can move to learning the next thing.
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<beach>
splittist: That's excellent advice.
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<m7v21z42>
this might be faux pas to ask about, but does anyone know anything about qlisp?
<m7v21z42>
very interesting but hard to find information about it
<no-defun-allowed>
qlisp?
<beach>
m7v21z42: If it is not a Common Lisp implementation, then this channel is not the right forum for it.
<splittist>
My latest thing is C-c C-] in slime modes, to close all the open parens. Although sometimes closing them one by one and watching the corresponding paren being highlighted is a good check that what I think is happening is actually happening.
<m7v21z42>
thank you everyone, I'll return later
<no-defun-allowed>
What is qlisp?
<phoe>
~ baby don't cons me ~ don't cons me ~ no more ~
<no-defun-allowed>
That's what I asked, sans one letter.
<jmercouris>
oh, now it is making sense to me
<jmercouris>
i was wondering why phoe had said that
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<phoe>
I have a foreign array of five u8s. Is there any clever way of turning that into a Lisp integer, other than manually reading that into a (vector u8 (5)) and manually LDBing the bytes into the result?
<semz>
Is endianness important or is it just for storage?
<phoe>
The latter. I don't care about endianness - the only thing I care about is that these values are unique.
<phoe>
So in my case either all of them are big-endian or all are little-endian, which is good enough for me.
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<phoe>
I can read that as a foreign array of (:array :unsigned-char 5) and then sum it up manually, I just wonder if it can be done in a nicer way.
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<didi>
Just a fun found in SBCL: (defun 1- (number) (declare (explicit-check)) (1- number)) turtles all the way.
<phoe>
didi: that definition is there for the sake of e.g. source location finders, the actual 1- is implemented elsewhere.
<trittweiler>
as a compiler intrinsic, essentially
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<didi>
Interesting.
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<jdz>
The princess is in another castle!
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<didi>
In other news, here's an implementation of Algorithm L of reservoir-sampling: <https://paste.debian.net/hidden/2f53652a> Admittedly, it's less useful because we're inputting a list that's already in memory, but oh well.
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<jdz>
didi: I'd use (coerce <array> 'list) instead of MAP-INTO with IDENTITY.
<didi>
jdz: Thank, but I only want the first K elements.
<didi>
Thanks*
<jdz>
didi: Right, my bad.
<jdz>
You're already doing COERCE. But then again, I'd also COERCE the input list into an array instead of using NTHCDR.
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<didi>
jdz: Thank you.
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<Xach>
sjl: no. i want to add that info in the future.
<Xach>
sjl: i want to make it easy for anyone to find out exactly what, when & how I got something that's in a dist.
<didi>
jdz: By the looks of it, I would say it isn't algorithm L anymore, but still nice.
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<jdz>
didi: Right, I don't know what the algorithm L is (but I can guess); I was rolling with the method name. And the effect should be similar. If it's not, there's something wrong with the algorithm L (if my guess is correct).
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<jdz>
I might also be talking nonsense, in which case I'd kindly ask you to point that out :)
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<_death>
not sure how much better it is in practice, since non-cryptographic PRNGs are quite fast ;)
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<_death>
could be useful if you have a way to quickly skip a number of items
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<_death>
(i.e. if there's a big speed difference between skipping M items and scanning M items.. for example, querying items from a server)
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<vivit>
White_Flame: Thank you
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<_death>
also, since the indices are independent from the items, they can be pre-computed for each sample size
<_death>
since random numbers are involved, several such sequences can be generated
<_death>
they could be lazy sequences precomputed up to an arbitrary N
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<_death>
time to stop rambling ;)
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<phoe>
Xach: has there been a dist update recently?
<phoe>
oooh, very recently, I see
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<didi>
_death: My list version scans the list, the original version only uses indices, so I'm guessing you get a speed up by skipping items.
<Xach>
in progress!
<phoe>
thanks!
<_death>
didi: if you need to scan each item then the point of the algorithm is lost
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<didi>
_death: Even worse: the list is all in memory, so the reservoir advantage is non-existent.
<_death>
didi: well, there is still some advantage, as you don't have to know the length of the list a priori
<didi>
_death: True.
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<_death>
didi: so it seems a good interface would be a lazy sequence of indices.. then user code can skip items and update the sample accordingly
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<_death>
(or a stream of indices, if you like)
<didi>
_death: It seems to me that the point is not having all the source in memory. I think Algorithm L advantage is avoiding calling `random' at every source element.
<_death>
didi: right, it not just avoids calling random, but it avoids doing anything, hence items can be skipped
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<didi>
_death: True, true.
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<_death>
I would write a short snippet to make my interface idea clear, but I have to leave soon
<didi>
Tho my use case, i.e. reading large files from disk, would still force someone to read all the items sequentially.
<_death>
didi: can you not seek? (do you not have an index for each item position, or fixed size items?)
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<didi>
_death: Right, I can pre process it, tho I don't. Each line is a record.
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<_death>
then algorithm R would likely be sufficient ;)
<didi>
_death: Thank you.
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<_death>
the way I've been using it also required scanning, but it helped not having to know the length beforehand
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<rpg>
Wondering: is anyone proposing any lisp-related projects to Google Summer of Code?
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<_death>
a search engine
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<beach>
I keep wondering whether GSoC takes place in December-January in the southern hemisphere.
<jmercouris>
lol
<jmercouris>
that's hilarious
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<rpg>
beach: No, but they have to write the code counterclockwise
<beach>
Ah. :)
<jmercouris>
i thought the difference was that their parentheses have to be like )print "lol"(
<jmercouris>
oh man that looks so wrong
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<beach>
As I recall, karlosz did the Cleavir-based compiler for CLISP as a GSoC project.
<rpg>
jmercouris: That should be a sort of INTERCAL-like language
<jmercouris>
what is ALGOL language exactly?
<jmercouris>
I see many references to it
<jmercouris>
but I've not met someone who says "I know algol"
<splittist>
jmercouris: Australians were using parens 10,000 years ago. What goes around comes around, as they say.
<rpg>
beach: GSoC is done through the project, so it would have to be someone like your Uni, or the SBCL project, or something like that.
<beach>
rpg: I know. I was not aware of karlosz applying that time, and I was not a mentor.
<rpg>
jmercouris: ALGOL was sort of the Ur-language for structured (post FORTRAN) programming. It gave rise to a lot of key PL ideas.
<jmercouris>
PL?
<rpg>
jmercouris: It's usually taught in intro programming language courses.
<Bike>
unlike with lisp, modern languages closely derived from old ALGOL aren't really called ALGOL, as far as i know anyway
<jmercouris>
apparently the ACCM was doing it for some time
<rpg>
jmercouris: Many of the ideas in ALGOL found their better-known exposure in Pascal.
<jmercouris>
I see
<beach>
jmercouris: PL = programming language
<jmercouris>
oh ok
<jmercouris>
thank you
<beach>
Now didn't the Scheme specification contain a reference to Algol?
<rpg>
jmercouris: So in PL class we read the Algol report, a paper about Self, Prolog, McCarthy's Lisp paper, and probably some others I have forgotten.
<jmercouris>
oh I see
<jmercouris>
very interesting
<rpg>
I think ALGOL added a lot of clarity to the understanding of how arguments get passed to procedures.
<beach>
Algol was my first programming language. I had no place to execute it though.
<beach>
I read the book in 1975 or so.
<Bike>
"We gladly acknowledge the influence of manuals for MIT Scheme [20], T [21], Scheme 84 [12], Common Lisp [25], Chez Scheme [8], PLT Scheme [11], and Algol 60 [1]."
<Bike>
in r6rs.
<rpg>
If I recall correctly, it took years and years for Algol 68 and Ada to be fully implemented.
<rpg>
Meanwhile, Pascal took over most of the energy behind structured programming.
<beach>
Bike: Also R3RS: "Dedicated to the Memory of ALGOL 60"
<Bike>
algol 60 is like twenty years older than the rest of those, so that's kind of neat
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<beach>
jmercouris: Learning about the history of programming languages, operating systems, and computer architecture is an absolute must. Otherwise, you will fall into the trap of thinking that what you have now is not only all there is, but that it's the best thing since sliced bread. And then you won't have the mental tools to want something better.
* Odin-
would say that, somewhat simplified, ALGOL is to C and Pascal as LISP is to Scheme and Common Lisp.
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<beach>
That's not a bad parallel actually.
<rpg>
I think that's mostly true, but I'm not sure that C fits perfectly -- it seems really off on its own.
<Odin->
C is more indirect than Pascal.
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<Bike>
BCPL cut a bunch of stuff out and C has only barely got it back
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<Odin->
And even then sometimes only against the grain.
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<drmeister>
Does anyone know quicklisp well enough (hi Xach) to confirm that this is where quicklisp loads asdf systems?
<drmeister>
I'm trying to time individual quicklisp system loading by wrapping TIME around this.
<drmeister>
I'll know soon - but I thought I'd toss this out there.
<drmeister>
Hokay - no - it isn't.
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<splittist>
Algol 68 - by contrast to Algol 60 - was a decade-long, international experiment in how not to create a language. I'm sure it informed the pragmatism of the CL spec.
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<drmeister>
Yeah - that was naive. quicklisp/asdf are all kinds of recursive when systems are loaded.
<rpg>
splittist: but Algol 68 was still very influential in programming language design. Like Ada, it turned out to be an experiment in how not to create an IMPLEMENTED language, but they were nevertheless very influential in successor languages that WERE implemented.
<Odin->
Dare I mention COBOL?
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<rpg>
drmeister: Could you wrap calls to ASDF:OPERATE? I think this would be the right place, but I haven't looked at it to confirm.
<rpg>
drmeister: You might be able to put an :AROUND method on it, but I'm not sure.
<drmeister>
rpg: Thank you - I'm trying that now.
<drmeister>
Well, something like that.
<rpg>
drmeister: The tricky thing is that you don't know whether the COMPILE-OP is going to be invoked or not.
<drmeister>
I hacked asdf:load-system
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<drmeister>
I clear the cache beforehand
<splittist>
rpg: Oh, absolutely. And Ada itself was a reaction to Algol 68.
<rpg>
drmeister: That's just a user interface function: internally LOAD-SYSTEM is never called recursively. It's a thin shim around OPERATE
<drmeister>
I hit Control-C in a quicklisp load and looked at the stack - in this ccase there are several load-systems on the stack.
<drmeister>
That's what led me to try this.
<rpg>
drmeister: That must be stuff that's being done by QL -- it wouldn't be ASDF doing that.
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<vivit>
Is there any way to change the directory in which quicklisp in installed without reinstalling quicklisp?
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<phoe>
vivit: AFAIK you can just move the directory
<phoe>
AFAIK setup.lisp operates relative to the directory it is in
<phoe>
so `mv ~/quicklisp ~/slowlisp` and then `(load #p"~/slowlisp/setup.lisp")` *should* work to the best of my knowledge
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<vivit>
thanks
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<Xach>
phoe is 1000 per mille right
<phoe>
Xach: sometimes even faster, depending on the CPUs I have on a given machine
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<pfdietz>
Odin-: I know a company that uses Common Lisp to manipulate COBOL source code.
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<phoe>
oh my goodness
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<albatroz>
I'm having a weird behaviour on SBCL in Windows.
<albatroz>
I have a stream to a file.
<clothespin>
and?
<albatroz>
And when I try to use fstat to get the file's information from its file descriptor I get a "SB-POSIX:FSTAT: The storage control block address is invalid."
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<clothespin>
have you tried another os, by any chance, to know what correct behavior is?
<phoe>
seems like some sorta permissions issue, by brief googling
<albatroz5>
Actually no. But I was expecting to get a stat such as by using stat with a filename
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<Shinmera>
much easier to have a remote mail server and just send via smtp.
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<p_l>
mailman is for managing mailing list, isn't it?
<Odin->
Last I knew, yes.
<Shinmera>
I was working on a mailing list service in summer but never got around to finishing it.
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<pyzozord>
Hello I wish I knew lisp. It sounds so awesome. Why do you think lisp has not taken off as the main web langauge instead of javascript?
<White_Flame>
lisp was heavily invested into in a previous AI wave. But then when overblown AI claims didn't materialize, people stigmatized the langauge instead
<White_Flame>
now that that "AI Winter" has passed by a generation or two, there's fresher interest
<Xach>
pyzozord: that is not an uninteresting question, but the topic of this channel is common lisp, and if you would like to talk about common lisp in some way, that's better.
<White_Flame>
also, javascript was initially designed to be a Lisp derivative, but politics demanded it be java-like for fad hotness
<White_Flame>
##lisp is a general lisp-family channel, and #clschool is for people who are learning common lisp
<no-defun-allowed>
not funny, didn't laugh
<White_Flame>
whereas #lisp (here) is a common lisp users channel
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<albatroz>
clothespin thanks for checking in macos. I've checked on ubuntu and it works as expected.
<no-defun-allowed>
pyzozord: You tell me. Why didn't some other language take off as the "main web language"? Probably similar reasons.