jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | offtopic --> #lispcafe
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<sm2n> drmeister, very cool
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<Inline> oO
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<moon-child> morning beach
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<radiohead_fan> is there any good lisp game engine that has good documentation?
<beach> You may want to check in #lispgames.
<radiohead_fan> oh ok thank
<beach> At least I think that's the dedicated channel.
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<mseddon> drmeister: very cool!
<pxpxp> How
<pxpxp> How would you go about efficiently comparing the contents of 2 files? (determining whether they have the same content) I could use with-open-file and then compare the read-byte but there may be a better way
<beach> Either way, you need to access each byte.
<Xach> pxpxp: that way is fine. it is probably faster to use read-sequence to read more at a time.
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<Xach> i wonder if there is an opportunity to do MISMATCH on multiple octets at a time if the vectors are known to be octet vectors.
<Xach> word-at-a-time or more
<phoe> non-standard functionality ahead: if the files are large, I'd mmap them both and then compare raw memory
<phoe> but I'd actually need to benchmark to tell you if this option is going to be faster than read-sequence with a buffer
<Xach> you also have to decide if the greater complexity is worth it
<phoe> yes
<Xach> it can be pretty fine to just do it a byte at a time with read-byte
<Xach> that's pretty simple and might be fast enough for your case
<pxpxp> thanks! But anyway there's no built-in function to compare streams, like (equal list1 list2) but for streams, right? I was hoping for something like this
<beach> What if the stream is infinite?
<Xach> pxpxp: not built-in
<pxpxp> okay I understand now. So I'll go with WITH-OPEN-FILE and READ-BYTE, and then if it's too slow I'll try to first use READ-SEQUENCE
<Xach> i think that's a sensible way to go
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<_death> it would be easy with my marray library
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<asarch> What can you do when there is no CC at hand and you still need some packages?
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<phoe> CC? what do you mean?
<phoe> what kind of packages?
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<asarch> Well, I was trying to get Caveman2 on an Android phone with Cl-REPL
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<asarch> And, at some point of the installation, (ql:quickload :caveman2) couldn't not complete the task because the absence of a C compiler
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<asarch> And, I was wondering if you know a hack in such as cases
<phoe> you might need to compile your own cl-repl while including all the foreign libraries that caveman2 depends on
<phoe> I don't know of any other option
<asarch> Oh :-(
<asarch> I also was thinking about cross-compiling but...
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<jackdaniel> asarch: type in the repl (ext:install-bytecodes-compiler)
<jackdaniel> and then, try quickloading caveman
<asarch> Ok, let me check it out...
<phoe> jackdaniel: TIL! what kind of C compiler does it use?
<jackdaniel> none
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<phoe> ...wait a second
<jackdaniel> ECL runtime environment works with both bytecompiled and natively compiled code
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<phoe> yes, but the original question was about a CC
<phoe> which I understood to mean a C compiler
<jackdaniel> well, I assume that the problem was that ecl compiler could not compile things
<phoe> OK - let's see
<jackdaniel> that said -- no idea. that gives me nice idea for extension
<jackdaniel> compile tcc and bundle it with ecl, so it is possible to invoke (compile-c-file …) from repl
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<jackdaniel> volunteer implementers welcome
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<asarch> That would be great!
<jackdaniel> a cool hack for certain; it is arguable whether it would be very practical or a good use of time
<jackdaniel> still, a cool hack regardless
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<mseddon> jackdaniel: heh, yeah that's actually pretty cool. I mean, Quake 3 effectively shipped with lcc, which is a similar tiny c compiler.
<mseddon> Carmack later discovered lisp and repented in a talk I remember.
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<manicennui> Believe it was Racket.
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<jackdaniel> I remember Quake 3, it was a fun game
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<mseddon> manicennui: yes, that's right.
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<mseddon> jackdaniel: yeah, it was one of their better ones. The engines were the real money maker at iD, the games were sometimes not great.
<mseddon> but. I dig the off-topic bell at myself at this point.
<mseddon> ring*
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<diip> Hei
<diip> I am having a strange problem on ecl...
<diip> when I use (abort) on the terminal repl, I get "Restart ABORT is not active"
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<diip> but it works on the sly repl in Emacs
<diip> and in compiled code
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<diip> is this suppoesed to happen?
<phoe> you mean the REPL that pops up when you execute the ecl unix binary?
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<Bike> (abort) calls the abort restart. the ecl built in repl may not establish an abort restart while sly's repl does.
<phoe> sly for sure establishes some sort of ABORT restart
<phoe> ECL alone might not
<phoe> "Implementors are encouraged to make sure that there is always a restart named abort around any user code so that user code can call abort at any time and expect something reasonable to happen; exactly what the reasonable thing is may vary somewhat."
<phoe> that is from CLHS Restart ABORT
<Bike> oh, really? did not know that
<phoe> I played with that a little bit when I was doing my condition work
<diip> isn't sly using the ecl repl?
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<phoe> nope, it has its own REPL implementation
<Bike> in clasp for a while we had new threads not have any restarts, which gets weird with slime
<Bike> i don't think i named the default restart abort, tho
<diip> I am a bit confused here, so sly is a common lisp repl written in Emacs lisp?
<phoe> diip: yes
<phoe> it also has a Common Lisp server named slynk that sly connects to
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<phoe> the sly repl is independent of REPLs used by individual implementations, so, SBCL, CCL, ECL, etc.
<phoe> diip: anyway, #ecl might be a good place to follow-up on this issue
<diip> aha, a lot makes sense now thanks
<diip> I will and maybe on their gitlab as well?
<phoe> sure
<diip> thanks, now I need to look at the sly code as well :-)
<diip>
<diip> so I guess sly can be used without any implementation installed on the pc
<phoe> what
<phoe> no
<phoe> sly needs to have a CL implementation to run slynk on
<phoe> sly is the client, slynk is the server
<phoe> the only thing that is interesting is that the slynk server needs not be locally on the PC - the communication can happen over a network
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<phoe> but having a slynk server running *somewhere* is required for sly to open up its REPL
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<diip> but the repl doesn't actually use the common lisp implimentation?
<phoe> the repl runs on elisp
<Bike> the repl uses the implementation. it doesn't use the implementation's repl.
<phoe> or rather
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<Bike> the server uses the implementation
<Bike> right.
<Bike> it can call eval and compile and stuff itself, you know?
<phoe> the stuff that you see in emacs runs on elisp, and it works by sending/receiving data from slynk, running on a CL implementation.
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<diip> is this in the sly documentation or will it be better to read the slime documentation?
<phoe> this might or might not be described in the slime/sly documentation
<phoe> it is just the overall architecture of it
<diip> so what is the implimentation used for? (if it has its own abort etc)
<phoe> uh
<Bike> um, everything?
<phoe> for running Common Lisp?
<phoe> you use the sly REPL for writing Common Lisp, don't you?
<Bike> the server is common lisp code running in a common lisp implementation.
<diip> sorry I guess I am being a bit slow....
<Bike> Okay, so like, you write a line in your repl.
<Bike> The repl sends the line to the server code. The server calls cl:eval or whatever on it.
<Bike> results are computed and they're sent back to the repl for display.
<Bike> the implementation is more than a repl.
<Bike> you seem to be conflating them?
<diip> but so how does abort work on sly? does it establish the "restart" on startup (sorry I am newish to common lisp)
<Bike> it uses restart-case or with-simple-restart, probably.
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<diip> restart-case of ecl to establish its own abort?
<Bike> like - you can write your own repl. (loop (print (eval (read)))). You can throw more stuff in there, do like (loop (print (restart-case ...)))
<phoe> everyone can establish their own restart
<diip> yes i seem to have been conflating the implementation and the repl
<phoe> (restart-case (invoke-restart 'my-restart) (my-restart () (print "hahaha") 42))
<phoe> here I establish a brand new restart that, upon invocation, transfers control outside the invoking form, prints a string and returns 42
<phoe> I could also establish an ABORT restart
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<phoe> and evaluate the command that came from sly in an environment where that restart is in effect
<phoe> that is what slime/slynk do.
<mseddon> diip: yeah, you have to forget everything you know about exception handling, lisp does it far differently, and better.
<diip> so I can write my own abort and put it in the eclrc?
<Bike> the eclrc is not related.
<phoe> you'd need to write your own abort and put it inside the ECL repl
<Bike> you're not getting it. the sly repl is code running somewhere. a function definition.
<diip> mseddon: that will be easy, I don't know anything.
<Bike> it just has restart-case or something in there
<phoe> which might mean rebuilding ECL.
<phoe> ECL has a RESTART-TOPLEVEL restart
<phoe> which is not named ABORT, even though it possibly could, since in theory it does what an ABORT restart would reasonably do in such a situation
<Bike> https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/blob/master/slynk/slynk.lisp#L1069-L1080 here's the sly macro that establishes an abort restart. you can see it used just below in handle-requests.
<diip> yes, but if I put something like "my-restart" above and put it in the eclrc, wouldn't that soulve my abort problem in the repl?
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<phoe> nope
<phoe> you'd need to RESTART-CASE every form you type in the REPL
<phoe> this is because restarts are established like (restart-case (foo) (my-restart ...))
<phoe> (foo) is your code
<Bike> what you can do with restarts is establish them AROUND code. there's no function to just add a "top level" restart that you could use in an rc file.
<phoe> or, in other words, they're established dynamically
<Bike> you can see in sly's code here that process-requests, which is what does evaluation and everything else, is called within the extent of the with-top-level-restart.
<phoe> I can think of a hack that you could use
<Bike> what do you want the abort restart do do, diip?
<diip> so I could use it around the function that I load into the repl and it won't break when I run the code?
<phoe> in your eclrc, you could place (loop (restart-case (si:top-level t) (abort () :report "Abort execution."))) which would effectively subvert the main ECL toplevel with a new toplevel that has the ABORT restart established
<Bike> i mean, you can do (restart-case (my-function) (abort ...)) if that's what you mean
<diip> Bike: I am writing an error* code in a file that I want to load into the repl to test
<diip> but it breaks the code rather than simply aborting (which is what I want)
<Bike> what i mean is that an "abort" can mean different things in different contexts. in a sly repl it will return to the repl. outside of a repl it might quit the program.
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<diip> Bike: yes that restart case function will work (I hope)
<phoe> simply aborting, what do you mean?
<phoe> do you want to quit ECL?
<diip> outside the repl, it should quit the program but whin testing in the repl I just want it to go back to the top-level without any error code (other than what is in my own error*)
<phoe> this sounds like a case for what --disable-debugger does in SBCL
<phoe> I don't know if ECL has a switch like that
<diip> phoe: interesting, thanks maybe but I will try the simplest way first
<diip> never used sbcl much
<diip> phoe: I meant about creating my own top-level
<diip> all I need for now is for the code to go back to top-level during testing, thanks
<diip> *shakes head* I have a lot to learn
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<mseddon> diip: it is immensely rewarding, and will make you generally a better programmer everywhere else.
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<remexre> is there a way to get iterate's (collect THING into OUT) to /not/ let-bind OUT around the loop?
<Bike> how would it be bound, then?
<remexre> already exists in an outer scope
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<Bike> adding to the end of an existing list is sort of a different operation
<Bike> seems like you could maybe do it with accumulate if you don't want to write your own clause
<remexre> okay, I'll take a look at that; thanks
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<phoe> (push thing out)
<phoe> and then nreverse the result
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