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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<defunkydrummer>
good morning beach
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<beach>
defunkydrummer: As I recall, the LSP was not meant for interactive languages, so there is essential functionality missing when it comes to a language such as Common Lisp.
<defunkydrummer>
yes, i know
<beach>
But I know scymtym has been working on LSP for Common Lisp, so I think there might be something available.
<defunkydrummer>
i'm quite happy with emacs+slime, but i was thinking on onboarding newcomers, youngsters without the friction of Emacs
<defunkydrummer>
i mean first they need to focus on learning the language, not the editor
<beach>
I understand your point.
<beach>
Those youngsters should watch "The Last Programming Language" by Uncle Bob. He says Emacs will eventually surpass all those IDEs because of the power it has from being written in Lisp.
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<beach>
I believe people working in languages such as Java think very highly of Uncle Bob.
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<beach>
I don't personally believe he is right about that, but that's beside the point here. :)
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<defunkydrummer>
@beach LOL not a bad idea. Indeed some of my devs believe in Uncle Bob. On the other hand, the only Bob i believe in is J.R. "Bob" Dobbs.
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<beach>
defunkydrummer: The @-convention is not used on IRC. Just type the nick followed by colon. Your IRC client should complete for you.
<defunkydrummer>
thanks, it's the first time I use this client (hexchat) and I forgot the convention!!!
<defunkydrummer>
it's been a long time since i enter IRC and this channel
<beach>
I suggest you use ERC or some other Emacs IRC client. That way you have your abbrevs, your spell checker, and everything else available as usual.
<defunkydrummer>
but i missed some interaction with fellow lispers from this side of the world and from the other sinde of the world, like the people who tread around bordeaux...
<beach>
Try that with a modern IDE! :)
<defunkydrummer>
beach: thanks i'll take a look at ERC. I just forgot that i could do everything inside emacs.
<beach>
Are you saying that you have been to Bordeaux, or just that you interacted with some of us?
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<defunkydrummer>
beach: no, never been to bordeaux. I was just remembering that you were actually in bordeaux. And i want to make a pun on "tread" vs "threads"
<beach>
Heh, OK.
<defunkydrummer>
beach: actually i've never been in europe, only within continental america
<beach>
I see.
<defunkydrummer>
beach: i guess someday i'll visit europe, after all I have family there
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<beach>
Oh? Where?
<defunkydrummer>
beach: btw you don't have an idea the amount of people i have presented your CLOSOS.pdf to!
<beach>
Thank you!
<beach>
What did they think?
<defunkydrummer>
every time i'm tired of UNIX i start speaking about lisp machines and then invariably i give them the closos /lispm.pdf
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<defunkydrummer>
beach: they don't say anything, they stay quiet. I am just planting seeds. Someday they will see the light.
<defunkydrummer>
just as I did
<beach>
Good plan.
<defunkydrummer>
and I thank @no-defun-allowed for showing me that pdf as well. (I guess the @ sign is correct here?)
<beach>
Nope. :)
<defunkydrummer>
+no-defun-allowed
<defunkydrummer>
(mention :no-defun-allowed)
<defunkydrummer>
(signal (make-condition 'alert :user :no-defun-allowed)) ; better this way?
<beach>
I do recommend "The Unix Haters Handbook". As I have said before, I deliberately did not read it for the longest time because I thought it was written by disgruntled old cranks, but the authors know quite well what they are talking about.
<beach>
The IRC client will highlight your own nick, and I believe some of them beep as well.
<saganman>
defunkydrummer: try rcirc, it is better than erc
<beach>
So just the nick will do.
<saganman>
Morning beach!
<beach>
Hello saganman.
<defunkydrummer>
beach: i have read a small part of The Unix Haters Handbook. It was a good laugh.
<defunkydrummer>
beach: i have come to respect disgrunted old cranks a lot...
<defunkydrummer>
morning saganman
<saganman>
Morning defunkydrummer
<beach>
I meant you could give it to your pals as a prerequisite for CLOSOS.
<no-defun-allowed>
defunkydrummer: I wasn't pinged, but the rules on what constitutes a ping on Matrix are absurd enough that I couldn't tell you what works.
<no-defun-allowed>
no-defun-allowed: Something like this consistently works. Mentioning no-defun-allowed...sometimes.
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<defunkydrummer>
beach: i do mention the UNIX haters handbook as well, and I tell you "you know, even after these years, everything that it's on the UHH is still relevant today. we haven't advanced not a single bit."
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<beach>
Indeed.
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<defunkydrummer>
beach: then i get really cranky. I guess that with a little luck i can become a disgruntled old crank as well. I am already cranky and disgruntled, now I just need to become old!! WHEEEE!
<beach>
It typically happens sooner than you expect.
<no-defun-allowed>
There's some differences, like how my /home file system hasn't kicked the bucket after five years of random crashes, while the Handbook suggests such a system wouldn't last five days with that record back then.
<no-defun-allowed>
But yeah, it's basically still right.
<defunkydrummer>
no-defun-allowed: wow you're still awake. Still dealing with the nice RC filters and the horrible thing of complex numbers for phasors / voltage vs current phase differences etc? "Fucking inductors, how do they work?"
<no-defun-allowed>
It's only 4pm here (but EE homework probably goes in #lispcafe).
<defunkydrummer>
oh, sorry, wrong chat
<defunkydrummer>
no-defun-allowed: oops, i sometimes forgot we're at different time zones. It's midnight hour here. 00:15h; round about midnight as Miles Davis would play
<defunkydrummer>
i'll keep quiet now so people can get back to talk about s-expressions m-expressions fexprs and the like
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<decentyousername>
Good morning
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<no-defun-allowed>
Hello decentyousername
<decentyousername>
I've lost my irc password, so now I'm a pleb.
<no-defun-allowed>
As SBCL would say, "Congratulations!"
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<kreyren>
i guess irelevant warning assuming that i am using quicklisp right
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<phoe>
huh? what do you mean
<_death>
may want to verify your pastes manually before you dump them here
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<kreyren>
_death, i did
<kreyren>
ahh
<kreyren>
i didn't!
<kreyren>
it was outputting: `WARNING: DEFGENERIC: redefining function DIST in /home/kreyren/.cache/common-lisp/clisp-2.49.92-unix-x64/home/kreyren/quicklisp/quicklisp/dist.fas, was defined in top-level` before but now i can't reproduce it x.x
<iissaacc>
anyone know of a way of mimicing zlib's Z_SYNC_FLUSH behaviour with a common lisp deflate library?
<kreyren>
so i guess fixed o.o
<_death>
kreyren: indeed quicklisp produces such warnings.. as a workaround you can use muffle-warning.. as a potential solution you can submit a pull request
<kreyren>
_death, i wanted to ask if it's safe to ignore these assuming runtime, but now i am confused to why are these no longer reproducable O.o
<phoe>
I cannot reproduce this warning on SBCL 2.0.9 when compiling Quicklisp from scratch
<kreyren>
phoe, i don't have the issue on SBCL 2.0.6.debian either
<kreyren>
seems to be specific to `clisp`
<kreyren>
GNU CLISP 2.49.92 (2018-02-18) (built on x86-ubc-01.debian.org [209.87.16.21])
<schweers>
beach: I’m taking a glance at your closos proposal. To be precise, this sentence tripped me up: “But it also means that in order for complex data structures to be stored in the file system, they have to be transformed into a sequence of bytes.” This made me wonder if it’s not actually totally bonkers that on UNIX a tree in an application is serialised into bytes which are then represented in
<schweers>
a tree on disk.
* kreyren
is willing to provide SSH to his system assuming pubkey provided to be placed in ~/.ssh/authorized_keys
<kreyren>
(to observe the issue if needed)
<phoe>
I'd generally advise to not use CLISP since it's almost unmaintained nowadays
<nekosagan>
lisp has so many predicates
<nekosagan>
I read that in the past, there were even more
<kreyren>
phoe, any source to that so that i can mention it in the issue?
<beach>
schweers: I see what you mean. But the file system is not adapted for fine-grained storage like that. A file takes up quite a lot of space even if the contents is small.
<schweers>
I wonder if it has to be that way.
<beach>
schweers: Besides, there is still no concept of a system-wide pointer, so you would still havce to store pathnames rather than 64-bit pointers.
<beach>
schweers: That, I can't answer. Maybe not.
<schweers>
by system-wide-pointer you mean a pointer to some data on disk?
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<phoe>
multiple hanging issues and MRs, no official release for a long time
<schweers>
mmap just doesn’t cut it, I guess.
<beach>
No, because you still need to decide where to put it in the address space.
<beach>
schweers: In a system such as CLOSOS, you can consider a pointer to be the address on permanent memory, and the RAM is just a cache.
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<phoe>
and you cannot have inter-file pointers
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<beach>
schweers: You are almost describing the way Multics did it.
<schweers>
beach: I am? :)
<beach>
schweers: A Multics pointer has two parts, a "segment" and an "offset", where a "segment" is like a fixed-length file.
<schweers>
Doesn’t even i386 machine code have a similar concept, which UNIX on PC never really used?
<beach>
But Multics' address space was still too small for system-wide pointers, so each process would map the segment to a process-specific table.
<kreyren>
phoe, noted, but seems that there aren't any actionable issues O.o
<beach>
schweers: Yes, Intel tried to accommodate systems like Multics, but they never did it well enough that it would have worked.
<schweers>
I see
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<beach>
So, with Multics, in PL/I source code, you would write segment$offset where segment and offset were symbols.
<phoe>
kreyren: making a release and merging the package-local nickname MR would be two actionable issues I'd consider important
<beach>
schweers: Then, when the pointer was used, the dynamic linker kicked in and translated it to a segment number (specific to the process) and an offset determined by the symbol table of the segment.
<beach>
schweers: By default, there was no need for a separate link phase. You just compiled the source segment to an object segment, and then you could execute the object segment.
<kreyren>
phoe, true, mentioned in the issue
<schweers>
beach: that actually sounds like an interesting approach.
<beach>
It was marvelous, given the limitations at the time.
<beach>
Unix, of course, could not implement all that, and Unix is what we got stuck with.
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<beach>
schweers: If you wrote some code in a segment called s.pl1 containing a reference such as a$b and it turned out not to exist, when you ran s (the result of compiling "pl1 s.pl1"), the linker would trap. You could then fire up Emacs, write the a segment, compiler it and then say "continue", and the linker would patch the reference and try again.
<beach>
I am not sure that even our best Common Lisp implementations can do that.
<schweers>
What do you mean by “write the segment”? How did these segments come into existence?
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<phoe>
beach: CL has no segments due to being memory-safe
<beach>
By emacs s.pl1
<phoe>
if there's an undefined function, you can write it, compile it, and then invoke some sort of RETRY restart that exists
<TMA>
we have still one more chance to design a better computing platform with the 64->128 bit transition that will inevitably happen when we exhaust 64-bit address space
<beach>
schweers: Similar to a file.
<schweers>
Ah, I see!
<schweers>
Now your sentence makes sence :)
<beach>
phoe: I know. I was referring to the possibility of creating a function after an error and then write that function and retry the failing call.
<beach>
schweers: Think of a segment as a fixed-size array that in permanent memory.
<schweers>
I was, I just didn’t make the connection to something like a filepath or filename.
<beach>
phoe: Yes, but then SLIME makes it harder to do that.
<phoe>
beach: that's correct, SLIME is not designed around that
<phoe>
mostly by not making the debugger REPL available
<beach>
Exactly.
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<beach>
Multics PL/I had some of the features that we think of as unique to Common Lisp and some other interactive languages. As we know, the Common Lisp condition system was inspired by that of Multics PL/I.
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<schweers>
Was it a hard requirement to use PL/I on multics? Or could other languages be used instead?
<beach>
You could use other languages, but the ABI had to be the same if you wanted to use those unique features.
<schweers>
For all it’s faults it seems to me that the UNIX model is pretty well suited to allow arbirtary languages to be used.
<beach>
Think of it like you think of C and Unix.
<schweers>
Hm, I guess
<schweers>
That does make sense.
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<beach>
Multics also had a pretty good MacLisp implementation, and Emacs was written in it.
<beach>
In the past, I apparently incorrectly stated that Multics Emacs was the first Emacs written in Lisp, but I was corrected (by lispm, I think), but now I can't remember which one he claimed was the first one.
<no-defun-allowed>
Well, it's evaluated in the dynamic environment but not the lexical, like the SBCL debugger REPL does. But still impressive.
<beach>
I wish I had been told this ages ago.
<contrapunctus>
phoe: that issue sounds like a UI/discovery issue - should SLIME be modified to display a prompt?
<phoe>
contrapunctus: I'd vote for making it more obvious that the REPL is usable while the debugger is up
<phoe>
by whatever means available, but yes
<contrapunctus>
Would you like me to add that as a comment there?
<_death>
nice, I wasn't aware of it
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<phoe>
...seriously? is no one here aware of it or something
<phoe>
contrapunctus: yes please
<beach>
Uh, oh. Time for a lunch break before the online Lisp meeting.
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<_death>
I'm not sure that it's an intentional feature
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<phoe>
but it certainly is a welcome one
<_death>
well, the semantics may need to be better defined.. I think I got it to a state where the environment didn't make much sense
<phoe>
what do you mean?
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<_death>
I need to figure out how to reproduce it
<schweers>
I also didn’t know the REPL still worked when in the debugger. Thanks!
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<_death>
but if you (bt:make-thread (lambda () (let ((*foo* 'value-in-thread)) (cerror "Print it" "What's *foo*?") (print *foo*)))) you can see one avenue of improvement
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<_death>
when you type 'e' it's the correct environment.. I guess there could be a key to set up a repl in that specific environment
<_death>
like your original suggestion in the issue
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<_death>
the environment disappears after you invoke one of the restarts, so maybe that's why they chose to just let you evaluate something in a minibuffer instead
<_death>
I suppose it could keep track of the repl window and delete it when a restart is invoked
<_death>
*buffer
<_death>
then again, the environment may not disappear, depending on the circumstances.. slime has access to the environments, so maybe it has a way to know
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<_death>
currently slime gets confused if I have the minibuffer prompt for something to eval in frame, switch to sldb and invoke the restart, then back to the minibuffer and eval something..
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<Xach>
I thought I could, then I thought I couldn't, now I think I can again.
<phoe>
schweers: ^
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<ebrasca>
scymtym: First time for streaming.
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<scymtym>
ebrasca: i'm not sure what you are saying or asking
<schweers>
phoe: Cool, thanks!
<Xach>
phoe: http://l1sp.org/cl/3.5.1.5 suggests that &allow-other-keys makes it suppress signaling an error when i do it. but now i'm wavering - it says it's undefined in unsafe calls, and i don't know the full definitions of safe and unsafe calls. maybe i'm doing undefined unsafe calls.
<Xach>
i use non-symbols as keyword arguments when i want to build a lookup table and use the pairs-of-args enforcement of &key at compile time, e.g. (defun make-a-table (&rest keys-and-values &key &allow-other-keys) ...)
<scymtym>
schweers: maybe wait until a higher-resolution version finishes converting so you can read all the text
<schweers>
I’m not going to watch it now anyway. I suppose I’ll have time tomorrow
<Xach>
(make-a-table "name") => compile-time error about odd number of arguments
<Xach>
(make-a-table "name" "Alice") => compiles and returns a table at runtime
<Xach>
this works in three implementations i've tried, but i am too old to fall for "it works everywhere so sbcl will always allow it" trap!
<schweers>
Xach: can’t you do this with a compiler macro?
<Xach>
schweers: yes. it's more work though.
<schweers>
Yeah, I figured
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<ebrasca>
scymtym: Can you use eclector for code deduplication?
<scymtym>
ebrasca: not eclector alone, but something based on it, sure
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<varjag>
phoe: yup it just worked (tm) when i did that
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<sm2n>
is there a way to get the source code of a function or closure at runtime?
<phoe>
sm2n: FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION
<phoe>
but it is allowed to not work for whatever reason
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<phoe>
so possibly you could get better results with the xref mechanism
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<sm2n>
hmm, thanks
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<sm2n>
xref indexes the source files, right?
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<sm2n>
so it can be out of date if a file has changed but not compiled
<phoe>
yes
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<beach>
One reason that FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION is allowed to return NIL is so that commercial vendors would not go out of business for providing a conforming implementation of Common Lisp.
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<phoe>
beach: uh actually though
<phoe>
(function-lambda-expression #'map) ;=> NIL on SBCL
<phoe>
the primary value, that is
<beach>
That doesn't contradict what I said.
<jackdaniel>
sbcl is preparing for IPO
<jackdaniel>
but that's classified ,)
<phoe>
hm
<beach>
Now, I wonder what a non-NIL return value would be for FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION when given a generic function.
<jackdaniel>
the reason behind a decision, and what people do with the decision afterwards are two different things
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<schweers>
Could it have to do with the fact that storing the source costs memory?
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<beach>
In the SBCL case?
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<beach>
It doesn't cost very much, but maybe that decision was made a long time ago.
<schweers>
beach: yes, but also in older lisps. I guess nowadays the cost would be negligable
<jackdaniel>
schweers: that could be controlled with space optimization flag
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<schweers>
jackdaniel: true
<beach>
But my question still stands. What if an implementation decided to make it a generic function?
<schweers>
Good question
<schweers>
A list of sources for all the methods ;)
<jackdaniel>
beach: it is hard to say, a dispatch code?
<jackdaniel>
that might be actually useful- you could see how complicated the generic function is
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<Bike>
it's also kind of nice to be able to see how it dispatches, like to help with understanding why a method you thought would be called isn't
<Colleen>
Bike: drmeister said 7 hours, 12 minutes ago: Would any of the coming optimizations (setjmp/longjmp) or inlining improve the following by eliminating unwinding?
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<ebrasca>
Are reader macros apropiate for parsing magnet links?
<contrapunctus>
kinope: the only two choices I know of for multi-line message protocols bridged to IRC...autopastebin, or flood the channel. (Well, now that I think about it...one could also replace newlines with spaces - the results wouldn't be ideal, but when are they ever? 😄)
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<no-defun-allowed>
contrapunctus: Matrix would flood if the message isn't _too_ long. After some point, it does link to a copy of the message.
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<kinope>
oh I see it made my message into a link!
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<kinope>
May I repost JUST the relevant part of my question
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<aeth>
If it's not code (use a pastebin for that) then the way to do long messages on any client, really, is to write it out in Emacs and then manually paste it in a line at a time. I've had to do that a few times. Even clients that auto-break instead of having one line that cuts off will just break randomly in the middle, instead of the natural breaking point.
<aeth>
Plus, it encourages you to edit it down to < 5 IRC lines.
<kinope>
ok
<kinope>
I have seen some discussion in the past on the issue of documentation, specifically creating a set of classes to capture descriptions of well-defined entities that one may expect to exist in a piece of documentation.
<kinope>
With the intention to separate the concerns of input and output formats/syntax from the content/essence of the documentation itself.
<kinope>
I have a vague idea of how I might accomplish this in my use-case, but I would like to read about how others have accomplished this, so I can make use of their experience.
<kinope>
Unfortunately I have no idea of the search terms to use to summon the information from google. I have tried search terms like "class", "object", "descriptor", "description", "serialization".
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<kinope>
s/serialisation/deserialisation
<White_Flame>
you want a datastructure that can reasonably represent documentation in general?
<White_Flame>
or at least, an ontology?
<White_Flame>
the question unfortunately is a little vague to get concrete answers
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<kinope>
Well not documentation, but state machines.
<kinope>
Im not really interested in the specific use
<kinope>
just the general method.
<kinope>
but I cant give more information unfortunately as it was something i saw here in the past
<White_Flame>
the method of design in general?
<kinope>
Just hoping someone would remember
<sm2n>
yeah I remember beach talking about it
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<sm2n>
don't remember the details though
<White_Flame>
well, there is a link to all the irc logs in the topic, so maybe you can find something there?
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<kinope>
I guess the design of a system that separates concrete syntax/formating from the content.
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<kinope>
with an interface so that multiple input/output formats can be supported
<White_Flame>
is this about the concrete syntax trees in SICL maybe?
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<White_Flame>
I mean, what you're talking about is usually ASTs or IRs in compilers, which are usually custom per implementation. Beach's CSTs contain more information but builds on them, afaik
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<kinope>
Hmm I dont recall that being a topic in the discussion, but perhaps. I'll take a look.
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<_death>
what's wrong with simple model classes like (defstruct machine name states events actions) (defstruct state name enter exit transitions children) ;; children for substates..
<kinope>
_death: That is along the lines of what I'm thinking of doing currently
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<_death>
I wrote some state machine compiler thingy a few years ago that used that approach.. read sexps descriptions and generate C++.. defining a new output backend was a mere defmethod away..
<White_Flame>
yeah we had a similar thing that generated Java and CL backends
<White_Flame>
but I wouldn't necessarily say that the design came from any standard model other than what the project's specifics were
<White_Flame>
the rest is ... programming? :shrug:
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<White_Flame>
and yeah, I think beach was more talking about an ontology implemented in CLOS
<White_Flame>
but the problem with those is that they have to match exactly in order to have reuse
<White_Flame>
right, but that has an implied ontology, not an explicit/shared one
<White_Flame>
the _contents_ of documentation (formatting, markup, links, etc) I think has a fairly reasonably fixable ontology, but how it links to source code concepts can be pretty vague
<White_Flame>
if the assumption is that all comments are representable in that ontology
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<White_Flame>
and of course, state machine specifications or other declarative systems like that will have their own set of atomic concepts to link together in system-specific linkage terms
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<White_Flame>
it does get into architecture astronaut territory to get much higher than that, though
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<White_Flame>
(or architectio ad absurdum, to coin a phrase)
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<kinope>
ok ontology looks like the term I needed. I was thinking of basing mine on the UML behavior state machine semantics. although that does leave other specifications with different semantics unable to be represented by the system.
<kinope>
I wonder if there is one that could support a diverse set of semantics
<White_Flame>
right. If you allow meta-semantics, then your diagrams/specs become sort of like an interpretive machine to describe the machine
<White_Flame>
which could be fine, but is almost impossible to reason about, and all your code might end up way more imperative
<White_Flame>
and really, "able to work with arbitrary semantics" is almost equivalent to "artifical intelligence" :-P
<White_Flame>
limiting what you support gives you much better tractability, and hopefully you can compose on what semantics you offer, instead of needing wholly new semantics in addition
<kinope>
perhaps not arbitrary, but a few well defined ones would suffice. yeah maybe one could pick a set of mutually compatible semantics to create an execution model that suits the problem. although I really have no use for that complexity. I'd be happy using a subset of UML
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<kinope>
I have to head off, but thanks for helping me out
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