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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<beach>
scymtym: I like the idea of using conditions for reporting progress. Never thought about that.
<Nilby>
Good morning
<Nilby>
and "Welcome to LDB"
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<phoe>
hey wait a morning in LDB is a bad morning
<no-defun-allowed>
LDB is much nicer than shifting and masking bits yourself.
<beach>
phoe: It's your fault. Because of your message about the book, I now can't get the song by the Who "I'm free" out of my head.
<phoe>
:(
<beach>
It's OK. I like that album.
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<scymtym>
beach: yeah, as i said, it worked very well for me. but as shka_ mentioned, a little extra work is needed to make the approach work across multiple threads
<beach>
Yes, I can see that.
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* Xach
uses conditions in that way in Quicklisp download progress reporting
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<beach>
Interesting.
<Xach>
in my innocence i imagined someone making a graphical frontend and wanted it to be able to handle progress bars without changing much
<beach>
Yeah, it's a perfect mechanism for alternative front-ends.
<beach>
... including the absence of a font end entirely.
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<Robdgreat>
the front fell off?
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<ck_>
chance in a million!
<p_l>
I seem to recall an early example of conditions being used in relation with text input editing
<Robdgreat>
ck_: ^5
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<uhrenmacher>
Ok, hello people, just havin' two questions my knowledge in terms programming is limited to C, Java and some scripting langs. So I thtought about learning something like some Lisp dialect. What dialect do you recommend a newbie? 2. I have been using Vim for some time now, I am pretty used to it, is it worth it to go for Emacs, when coding in Lisp?
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<beach>
uhrenmacher: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so we will be biased in favor of Common Lisp.
<TMA>
uhrenmacher: this is a common lisp channel. the answer is biased here
<beach>
heh.
<TMA>
you are faster, sir. well done
<_death>
yes, it's worth trying emacs
<uhrenmacher>
hmm, so, what makes Common Lisp "superior". Why did you choose to use it?
<shinohai>
>Java
<beach>
uhrenmacher: If you can go for Emacs, that would be good.
<shinohai>
The first step is admitting you have a problem. Well done.
<uhrenmacher>
Should I go full Emacs then or just as a terminal and editor?
<beach>
uhrenmacher: You should use SLIME.
<beach>
It's almost like an IDE for Common Lisp.
<beach>
uhrenmacher: SLIME is an Emacs library.
<uhrenmacher>
>Java, bruh learned it when I was like 12 to h4xx0r in gaymes, using it for GUIs only nawadays
<shinohai>
xD
<beach>
uhrenmacher: See random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html for a list of features of Common Lisp.
<uhrenmacher>
Ok, so common lisp, do you recommend any compiler? Using Void Linux.
<cl-arthur>
uhrenmacher: I used to use vim, now after enough lisp I use emacs (w/ SLIME). lisping with emacs/slime is far better an experience than the straight vim I used before. There's something SLIME-like for vim, but yeah go emacs.
<beach>
uhrenmacher: Most people here probably use SBCL. It is not just a compiler. It is an interactive system, just like any other Common Lisp implementation.
<phoe>
uhrenmacher: the interactivity of Lisp is a massive benefit over all non-interactive languages
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<phoe>
one can, and should, inspect, debug, modify, converse with a living Lisp application without ever quitting it
<Inline>
it's just that interactivity i sometimes lack especially when doing oop related stuff
<uhrenmacher>
ah, yeah, that was something. Ok, this question is probably far to retarded, but...why can't I just write my code in a file, compile it and then execute it? Like just looked up some tuts on it, but couldn't find anything for this. Maybe I am to brainlet to see the advantages, idk
<uhrenmacher>
*too
<Inline>
then it might get cumbersome
<Inline>
or i didn't find a good way to deal with yet
<Inline>
heh
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<phoe>
uhrenmacher: of course you can
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<phoe>
but then you're missing out on all the fun parts of programming
<Inline>
i find myself often editing stuff and reloading my repl
<Inline>
rather than staying put in the repl for ever
<phoe>
when your program doesn't work then it just crashes, which means that you don't get to debug it or inspect its data structures live
<Inline>
lol
<shortername>
hmm, so why do people recommend against doing so?
<beach>
shortername: You would create an executable only at the end of a long development cycle. We can discuss that in a few months.
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<phoe>
Lisp can compile incrementally, which means very short feedback loops, where a newly compiled function is available inside your program in milliseconds rather than seconds and you can immediately play with it in the REPL
<Inline>
for redefining functions/macros it's ok i suppose, but really i have not found a good way to oop stuff yet
<beach>
Inline: What do you mean? What kind of "oop stuff"?
<pipes>
shortername: You would create an executable only at the end
<pipes>
of a long development cycle. We can discuss that in a few
<pipes>
months.
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<jackdaniel>
removing methods from a generic functions is kind of awkward, maybe that's what he means
<Xach>
It's not too bad in slime
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<beach>
Clouseau can do that.
<jackdaniel>
that's why I've said "awkward", not "hard" ;)
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<Xach>
I still do wish for a smart remove-method-at-point
<beach>
Clouseau is a delight. Not awkward at all. :)
<Xach>
maybe i'd also like a nicer inspect-at-point type thing - something that knows if it's looking at a defgeneric, defun, defmethod form and inspects appropriately instead of requiring me to manually enter #'foo at the prompt
<beach>
All good ideas.
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<jdz>
Xach: I use `slime-inspect-definition', which I think works most of the time.
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<Xach>
jdz: thank you! i did not know about that
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<Xach>
jdz: perfect!
<jdz>
Xach: Yay, I've provided information and not noise! Glad to have helped!
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<benjamindc>
Does anyone know of a good tutorial the describes up-to-date best practices for Lisp project organization and build processes?
<loli>
is there any literature on how to write an image based system, akin to Common lisp or those forth/smalltalk systems?
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<phoe>
loli: I'd start by writing a Forth or Lisp interpreter
<phoe>
you could try e.g. reimplementing Roots of Lisp by Paul Graham
<phoe>
the basic idea of the Roots of Lisp interpreter is the same idea that stands behind all image-based systems
<dlowe>
a lot of "scripting languages" are also image based systems, so I'm not sure why people acts it's so crazy when lisp does it
<phoe>
I know, right? Python is one, Ruby is one
<phoe>
they just aren't used that way
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<dlowe>
and they generally don't have optimizing, bare-metal compilers
<phoe>
yes, but those aren't strictly required
<loli>
can those systems save the current image, then resume on a ceratin function afterwords? I'm curious on how the format of that is, thanks for the suggestion
<phoe>
a purely interpreting image-based system is still an image-based system
<no-defun-allowed>
They're just tedious to use interactively; I can't break into a REPL in a Python program too easily.
<loli>
hopefully roots of lisp will be useful
<phoe>
loli: that's an implementation detail, albeit an important one
<loli>
well I'm curious if that kind of detail is noted anywhere, as when I searched for papers on the subject it came up baren
<phoe>
most Lisp implementations dump their in-memory data structures somewhere and then restore those when the image is reloaded
<no-defun-allowed>
And one does not have update-instance-for-redefined class, so one is limited in what they can change while live.
<benjamindc>
What about Lisp in small pieces?
<phoe>
the simplest idea ever is to record all commands that were issued to the image from its start to its freezing and then replay them when the image is thawed
<phoe>
I haven't read LiSP so I cannot say
<phoe>
I mean, if in theory you do (defun foo () 42) (defun bar () (foo)) (dump-image "foo.image") then all that is required for the dumped image to become equivalent is to reexecute (defun foo () 42) (defun bar () (foo))
<phoe>
obviously this won't work in case of filesystem interaction or other side effects, but it's a simple idea that will work for toy interpreters
<phoe>
for everything else, you'd need to dump memory and restore it properly afterwards
<no-defun-allowed>
Some Smalltalk implementations do that, and export a changelog pretty much like that one.
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<loli>
how do those implementations handle side effects?
<loli>
I've made a fair few interpreters in my day, I guess the saving the memory to disk in a format that is very quick to reload is what alludes me
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<phoe>
it is doable
<phoe>
I played with the FASL format in Clozue Common Lisp one day
<no-defun-allowed>
I can't remember if they also dump an image now, but in some cases, they don't touch the filesystem at any other time.
<phoe>
(I need to push that refactored FASL code upstream someday)
<loli>
how was that? Is there any docuemntation on the FASL layouts?
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<loli>
I'm assuming those are packed in those beefy images that save-lisp-and-die produces
<phoe>
nope, CCL is woefully undocumented
<phoe>
the architecture is documented well enough; the code itself is not
<phoe>
but! the format is actually simple enough for me to grok
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<dbotton>
Is there any document that describes the interaction between threads and condition handlers? dynamic variables?
<dbotton>
maybe I am over thinking on this, but not finding much info
<phoe>
each thread has its own set of handlers
<no-defun-allowed>
Condition handlers are per thread, yes.
<phoe>
mostly because it has its own set of dynamic bindings
<no-defun-allowed>
Those are usually implemented with dynamic variables, and dynamic variables are also thread-local. What phoe said.
<dbotton>
got it
<Bike>
i don't see condition handlers or other parts of the dynamic environment mentioned in bordeaux-threads's docs, at a glance
<dbotton>
so not really useful between threads, like for msg passing
<Bike>
i'm not sure i understand how you'd use signal handlers for message passing.
<no-defun-allowed>
You probably should use mailboxes for message passing (eg safe-queue provides those).
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<aeth>
multithreading is still an underexplored frontier in most languages and CL is no exception (or is that "condition"?) here
<phoe>
well, in CL every thread has its own handlers since every thread has its own dynamic environment
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<phoe>
passing condition objects around threads is possible since they're Lisp data like any other
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<phoe>
it's just that stack information is not passable so easily because it's strictly thread-local unlike condition objects
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<phoe>
Dissect might come to help, but just a little bit
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<dbotton>
I wouldn't say most languages. The idea Bike is to say to have a thread block until receives a signal etc
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<aeth>
dbotton: re "most"... by quantity, I wouldn't be surprised if most languages don't even have "real" (non-green) threads yet.
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<Bike>
the lisp condition system isn't very much like nix interprocedural signals
<Bike>
the name "signal" being shared is kind of a coincidence, as far as i know
<sm2n>
dbotton, I don't really see what would stop you from writing your own scheduler that could do that though
<phoe>
dbotton: that's a job for mailboxes, not CL conditions
<dbotton>
understood
<dbotton>
sm2n, I am actually thinking about copying some of the Ada concurrency abstractions as an exercise
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<_death>
so, I've decided to archive the old Road to Lisp Survey submissions that were hosted on ALU wiki on github.. https://github.com/death/road-to-lisp hopefully none of those listed minds...
<dbotton>
aeth maybe I am missing it, but the use of non-green threads is going to be more of the implementation or os then the language
<dbotton>
most languages today have so low level support like bordeaux threads
<dbotton>
have some
<dbotton>
that are more or less a one to one to the OS support
<dbotton>
very few have higher level abstractions for sure
<Bike>
and this wikipedia article has no inline citations
<no-defun-allowed>
There are "condition variables" which are synchronisation primitives, but not related to the condition system.
<Bike>
yes
<dbotton>
ok
<Bike>
i mean, the wikipedia article does make it sound like lisp type conditions, but there's no detailed information
<Bike>
doesn't seem to be mentioned in the JMLC paper either
<Bike>
i am curious to see how this works
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<aeth>
dbotton: most languages are single-implementation or single-dominant-implementation languages, so it's doubtful that they have something like bordeaux-threads if the dominant implementation doesn't have the need for it yet.
<aeth>
dbotton: but, yes, it's technically an implementation issue
<dbotton>
I mean in the sense of level of abstraction
<Bike>
bordeaux is certainly a pretty low level api.
<dbotton>
most langs have very minimal work on absraction
<dbotton>
CL after all I have seen seems to deserve that
<dbotton>
certainly more then os "thread apis"
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<dbotton>
at least tasks, protected types etc like Ada or perhaps something like the model of active oberon (I wish I could say have experience with it but do not but I like the idea)
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<sm2n>
dbotton_, CL does have some high level concurrency abstractions, for example lparallel
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<dbotton_>
that I saw. Are there any others?
<jmercouris>
chanl
<jmercouris>
dbotton_: ^
<phoe>
cl-actors
<dbotton_>
great thanks will look at those
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