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<borei>
good afternoon/morning !
<arichiardi[m]>
good afternoon to you as well!
<borei>
damn was while ago i visited channel. changed my job, road is pretty bumpy, especially current covid days
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<borei>
i have question - what is the "proper way" to run lisp application. Currently im using ASDF to load modules my app depends on, but is there another way ?
<White_Flame>
quicklisp extends asdf to download dependencies if you don't have them, too
<White_Flame>
as far as actually invoking, either repl or load everything up and create an exectuable
<White_Flame>
*either run from the repl, or...
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<borei>
ic,
<borei>
seems like im on the write direction.
<borei>
tks.
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<johnjay>
does anybody know about using Nyxt on windows?
<johnjay>
i tried to get it compiled in debian WSL but it said sbcl 1.5 required
<johnjay>
oh wait the upgrade actually worked. now i have sbcl 2.0
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<bqv>
Hi.
<bqv>
Whats the equivalent of sb-alien::*shared-objects* on ccl?
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<phoe>
OK, video recorded; all is good now
<easye>
phoe: talk is how long? (trying to time cooking and family Zoom stuff between the Talk and the Hangout)
<phoe>
easye: 55 minutes
* easye
nods. "Thanks."
<mfiano>
Hmm, is there a way to #'fill an adjustable vector which has a fill pointer less that array-total-size with NIL's efficiently (which a compiler could just memcpy or something)?
<mfiano>
s/that/than/
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<beach>
What's wrong with FILL?
<mfiano>
On SBCL it honors the fill pointer. My use-case is to free references to objects beyond the fill pointer
<beach>
You could move the fill pointer, then FILL, then move it again.
<beach>
Moving the fill pointer is not likely to be a costly operation.
<phoe>
I wonder if you can use some operator that accepts array-total-size
<mfiano>
Yeah that's what I'm doing. Just wanted to be sure there wasn't a better way (this is in a very tight loop)
<no-defun-allowed>
Would it accept an :end that is the actual size of the vector?
<beach>
mfiano: In a tight loop, you still have to assign to every element, so unless you have very few elements, moving the fill pointer is not going to make a difference.
<mfiano>
Thank you for the input :)
<no-defun-allowed>
The answer to that is "no, it will not".
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<_death>
you could keep a displaced array and fill that, though I'm not sure that would be fast
<mfiano>
Yeah at the very least bounds checking would occur for both
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<mfiano>
Most compilers struggle to optimize displaced array access in my experience. I didn't dig too deeply though
<_death>
also, an array with a fill pointer is not a simple-array, so may make a difference
<phoe>
my heap implementation in damn fast priority queue emulates a fill pointer via an ub32 + simple array
<jackdaniel>
does it work with most-positive-bignum ?
<no-defun-allowed>
You have a simple array that large?
<jackdaniel>
yes, it has exactly most-positive-bignum elements
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<phoe>
I only used arrays that have least-positive-bignum elements
<jackdaniel>
actually, that one could be easily defined as (1+ most-positive-fixnum)
<jackdaniel>
and given that you use ub32, that could not work (because on 64 bit implementation it will probably have 61 bits)
<jackdaniel>
most-positive-fixnum that is
<_death>
can always get more nums by using zilnums
<no-defun-allowed>
The CL numeric tower needs to support numbers written in up-arrow notation, so I can write (make-array (↑↑↑↑ 3 3))
<aeth>
most-positive-bignum is old news. My favorite constants are integer encodings of various mathematical proofs. In particular, the Riemann hypothesis, the P vs NP problem, or any other Millennium Prize problem. If anyone can find these constants, please share here first.
<aeth>
Good thing we have bignums. I doubt any of these proofs could be encoded in a way that fits in a fixnum unless you wrote a very specific compression algorithm.
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<phoe>
aeth: I did that
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<phoe>
the P vs NP problem has an encoding of 42
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<phoe>
the only issue is finding the encoding algorithm; I'm still working on this.
<phoe>
s/encoding/decoding/
<aeth>
phoe: Yes. The problem is that it's only useful with the algorithm.
<phoe>
yes
<aeth>
To be fair, I did not specify a restriction to unsolved Millennium Prize problems and one has been solved, so in theory, the (uncompressed) bignum exists.
<aeth>
However, putting an entire document in a bignum probably makes it a... big num.
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<phoe>
it's in the name y'know
<phoe>
anyway!
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<phoe>
we're starting the Online Lisp Meeting in 22 minutes from now
<ghard>
aeth: Optima with cl-actors could cover a good slice of the reasons.
<no-defun-allowed>
Why does it need unportable code?
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<phoe>
ghard: I have, and I enjoyed it. I attempted writing a swank server in it once but didn't really finish it since it wasn't important enough to me at the time.
<phoe>
no-defun-allowed: no idea; you can try to portabilize it
<ghard>
Plus there is a library that makes CL look like an Erlang node
<ghard>
So can pass msgs
<Josh_2>
there is also cl-muproc for erlang
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<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: it's the kind of thing that's hard to make portable, just because the portability libraries are probably insufficient (you just have bordeaux-threads, really)
<no-defun-allowed>
I also have a thread supervision library. If you give each job a mailbox, you would have actors.
<aeth>
hard != impossible
<no-defun-allowed>
aeth: You have safe-queue for mailboxes.
<no-defun-allowed>
What is an actor, if not a thread with a mailbox?
<phoe>
ghard: CLERIC, yes
<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: it's the thread part that might be insufficiently portable, if you need to get really low level
<ghard>
There's still the 233 word process size and spawn speed that's pretty hard to match
<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: but maybe it's feasible; you probably know more than I do about that part of the ecosystem
<ghard>
But I've seen some use cases where I'd like to have both.
<ghard>
CL wrangling Erlang processes
<phoe>
ghard: this is my idea for the swank server
<phoe>
you could perhaps connect to LFE via slime or via swank-crew
<phoe>
though an alternative already exists if you connect to the erlang network via cleric
<ghard>
I'd very much love to have swank on LFE!
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<phoe>
well then, write it :D
<phoe>
the protocol is not very hard.
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<jeosol>
phoe: nice talk. I tried to stay up to catch it but very early for me. Just watching the playback.
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<jeosol>
phoe: incidentally, I am running some long optimization codes (9 separate runs) that takes weeks to complete. I didn't quite add protection code and forgot to disable plotting option. Every now and then, there is a gnuplot related error and I go into the debugger with an option to continue.
<jeosol>
phoe: I'd sort the bug later and look into error handling instead of using 'top i' to see if there are less than 9 sbcl showing up
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<phoe>
hahah
<phoe>
nice
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<jeosol>
phoe: it's a manageable option, i would lose weeks of compute and it's the second trial due to power issues.
<jeosol>
phoe: Thanks for making this available and all the others involved. I'd try to catch this live another time for the discussions and hangout.
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<hhdave>
Does anyone here know where the library cybertiggyr-time was ever available? I can't remember where I found it. It seems quite useful. I've uploaded it to https://github.com/Virtual-Insurance-Products/cybertiggyr-time when it was pointed out that it's not generally available. I can't find much reference to it on the internet
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<Josh_2>
still hiring lisp programmers hhdave?
<hhdave>
Yes
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<hhdave>
Xach - I couldn't find it on that website. It doesn't really matter, as I have it. I was just curious as to whether there was still an 'official' source for it.
<hhdave>
Xach - are you able to put this on planet lisp please?
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<Xach>
hhdave: sure
<hhdave>
Thank you :)
<Xach>
it'll percolate out in a bit
<clicat>
Does anyone have a remote lisp image connected with a swank server, e.g. a web app? I have a web server with a setup very similar to https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/debugging.html#remote-debugging, which works fine except that when I break the client connection abruptly (loss of connectivity), swank won't let me connect again (it's actually sly + slynk). I get "Lisp connection closed unexpectedly:
<clicat>
connection broken by remote peer" when M-x sly-connect, and I see "channel 5: open failed: connect failed: Connection refused" be output on my remote shell. This is annoying because I need to restart the server to solve the issue, and it usually results in exactly a minute of downtime (probably some TCP socket timeout)
<Josh_2>
I do and I've never had this problem
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<clicat>
Josh_2: with sly and slynk?
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<clicat>
Hmm the way I run my code isn't actually very standard... bash -c 'sbcl --load run.lisp < <(while true; do sleep infinity; done)'
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<clicat>
I did this because "sbcl --load run.lisp" immediately exits with my code, that I should now provide
<Josh_2>
It feels a little convoluted at first but It's easy enough. Basically when you save the image you want to specify a function that is executed when the saved image is executed, in here you have all your image setup functions, including starting your SWANK server. There is also a keyword so that when the image is done executing your setup function it will go to the top level repl instead of exiting automatically
<Josh_2>
thats with sbcls save-lisp-and-die, but there are quite a few libraries to aid with deploying your lisp app
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<_death>
there's also detachtty...
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<clicat>
Josh_2: what's the keyword argument to go be dropped in the REPL instead of exiting? I'm following the code of the cookbook but I'm not dropped in the REPL, the executable runs and exits.
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<Josh_2>
:executable t I believe
<wayneese1>
What happened to quickdocs / why was it recently shut down?
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<mfiano>
Because it was outdated
<mfiano>
Having documentation that is months old is arguably worse than none at all.
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<mfiano>
and the author doesn't have time to make the needed server changes to get it to update
<wayneeseguin>
Gotcha
<clicat>
Josh_2: I do use that... Otherwise I have the same code as before. I'm following exactly the build target given at the end of the "With SBCL" section. Maybe I should do something like in the "For web apps" section? I don't understand why we have to find the web server thread...
<wayneeseguin>
So it wasn't say 'auto-generated' but manually curated?
<mfiano>
It was auto-generated, but there were changes in Quicklisp or something that required a decent portion to be rewritten or something.
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<mfiano>
But it was pretty bad anyway, since it did not recognize #'(setf documentation) and just parsed strings
<mfiano>
A lot of libraries were therefor not documented properly
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<Josh_2>
clicat: what do you mean you have to find the server thread?
<Josh_2>
clicat: also yes that was the wrong argument, in my setup function I have (sb-impl::toplevel-init) as the last function call
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<clicat>
Josh_2: in the "For web apps" section, the cookbook says "We have one thing to take care of, it is to find and put the thread of the running web server on the foreground."
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<wayneeseguin>
mfiano: Noted, thanks.
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<Josh_2>
clicat: to save the lisp image?
<phoe>
hhdave: OK. What kind of support do you need with it?
<phoe>
if Xach already posted this on planetlisp, then Reddit might perhaps want to see it
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<Josh_2>
phoe: where can I find a doctor that will give appointments over counter strike? xD
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<phoe>
Josh_2: wherever counter strike is popular
<phoe>
if I understand the CSGO popularity-by-country trends correctly, then you can find such doctors in Russia, where, by definition, everything is possible
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<wayneeseguin>
phoe: I just bought a copy of your new book :D Looking forward to reading it.
<phoe>
<3
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<iarebatman>
hhdave: I actually read your reddit post the other day - I didn't realize you hung out in here. Do you know if your company would be willing to hire a remote employee from the U.S. ?
<Xach>
And when will that db work on sbcl
<phoe>
Xach: likely an issue of using a portable mmap
<phoe>
I saw the discussion on reddit related to it
<Xach>
Likely schmikely
<phoe>
:(
<wayneeseguin>
Does anyone know of an excellent tutorial of getting started with emacs + sly + sbcl? I've been a vim user for ::cough:: a long time and want to learn the full "immersive" experience for CL
<phoe>
wayneeseguin: I'd cheat if I were you
<phoe>
have you considered spacemacs?
<iarebatman>
wayneeseguin: I was in the same boat a bit ago.. I ended up using spacemacs
<phoe>
haha
<wayneeseguin>
:D
<wayneeseguin>
spacemacs vs doom thoughts?
<phoe>
never used doom, satisfied with spacemacs
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<wayneeseguin>
I'll give spacemacs a go then :)
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<iarebatman>
wayneeseguin: I mean it's not "perfect" exactly, but I've been using it for more and more as I work more things into my workflow(s). I use the hell out of Org mode for working on my book, creating presentations, and giving common lisp demos for work that I can run via Org Mode Source Blocks.. The "spreadsheet" capabilities are very cool, and I even got column/cell formulas to invoke CL functions.. but I haven't had much use
<iarebatman>
that myself.
<iarebatman>
I use it for my sql server work, I use it for time tracking/TODOs/etc.., and I use TRAMP to update my gemini site hosted on a remote VM.
<iarebatman>
all in all - very powerful. coming from vim originally, it takes some mind-bending.. but being able to do all of that from one place feels very gratifying..
<iarebatman>
wayneeseguin: by the way - if you go with spacemacs, you may have better luck with their develop branch than their latest release.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I'm not a spacemacs person
<fiddlerwoaroof>
evil-mode is nearly good enough by itself, and spacemacs always felt too heavyweight
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<iarebatman>
I definitely agree with spacemacs feeling heavy. haven't figured out the best way to deal with that yet besides delving deep into configuration-hell.. just not ready for that yet =)
<iarebatman>
I ended up with the common approach of running emacs as a daemon in the background at all times, that way when I open 'emacsclient' - it's much quicker.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
So, coming from vim, I just recreated my vim configuration from scratch
<fiddlerwoaroof>
use-package made it mostly ok
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<wayneeseguin>
iarebatman: Yeah, I have vim movement ingrained in my "finger-memory" and don't think before slicing up text so the 'mind bending' is steep for me :D
<wayneeseguin>
What's the difference with their develop branch?
<iarebatman>
quite a bit.. I'm not sure why they don't cut more frequent releases.. maybe they are trying to reach a certain milestone or something
<wayneeseguin>
blasting off...
<iarebatman>
fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah.. my biggest hold-up was not knowing what things were called in emacs.. like I had no idea what helm or ivy was.. so I wanted to use something like spacemacs for a while first to figure out what I liked and didn't like before I decided to dive in and make a more minimal package selection/config for myself
<daphnis>
is sly uncontroverisally better than slime?
<wayneeseguin>
I have a similar question, my understanding was sly was forked and maintained?
<Josh_2>
I do not know which one is "better" but I personally use sly because I like the features
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<Xach>
I tried to use sly but had a hard time adapting my slime key muscle memory. I'm going to give it another shot.
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
I've always used SLIME
<Xach>
I think sly is probably better, with nicer features and design. But changing old habits is difficult.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I even contributed to SLIME relatively recently
<fiddlerwoaroof>
(in the last two years, that is)
<mfiano>
There is a new feature of Sly that I really like
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
...
<mfiano>
(slynk-mrepl:copy-to-repl-in-emacs (list 'foo 42) :blurb "Sent from my game") =>
<mfiano>
; Sent from my game
<mfiano>
42 (6 bits, #x2A, #o52, #b101010)
<mfiano>
FOO
<mfiano>
inspectable objects sent back to repl from runtime :)
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<mfiano>
I use it for 3 dimensional geometry picking with the mouse in a scene
<mfiano>
screwed up list order of input. that is actually deterministic/unreversed :)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I was just looking at the specification for it
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<mfiano>
You often times don't want to just inspect some object located deep inside some internal game state that is otherwise unreachable from the APIs, but to also perform arbitrary operations on it in the REPL. Ray casting an sending back the object denotes by the geometry that the ray intersects with is a useful way to do this easily.
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Yeah, I often defvar then setf/push
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<lotuseater>
how can I use special versions of arithmetic operators eg in (defun square (n) (* n n)) for integers. a DISASSEMBLE shows her GENERIC-*
<lonjil>
The compiler needs to somehow know that that function is only going to get data of a certain type.
<lotuseater>
yes with DECLARE for example
<lonjil>
lotuseater: yes, and CHECK-TYPE should work in a lot of cases. This is all very implementation-specific though, so I can't give much general advice.
<lotuseater>
SBCL. is CHECK-TYPE compile or runtime specific?
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<lotuseater>
oh now it works without GENERIC-*
<lotuseater>
I forgot the variable in (DECLARE (TYPE ...)) o_O
<lotuseater>
it's good we have arbitrary precision integers
<lonjil>
Runtime. It will check a type and if it doesn't match it will error. This means that anything after the CHECK-TYPE, must have that type. So it isn't like when you do (declare (type ..)), where you promise that a variable will have a value of a certain type, which is technically speaking undefined behaviour if you violate the promise. In practice most CL compilers will insert type checks unless you do (safety 0), though.
<lotuseater>
hehe yes
<lotuseater>
safety is important
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<nij>
Hello! I'm using sbcl and quicklisp, and have successfully loaded a package called `cl-permutation`.
<nij>
Right now, whenever I need to call a function in that package, I need to type
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<nij>
> (cl-permutation:func1 var1 var2 ..)
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<nij>
But the package has a long name.. is there anyway that I can get rid of that need, and type instead
<nij>
> (func1 var1 var2 ..)?
<Josh_2>
you can import the functions you want when you use (defpackage .. )
<Josh_2>
You could also use (import ..)
<lotuseater>
and (in-package :clpermutation)
<no-defun-allowed>
You probably shouldn't use IN-PACKAGE, lest you define some function or variable and clobber CL-PERMUTATION somehow.
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<lotuseater>
yes of course you're right no-defun-allowed :) but in the REPL for experimenting it would be enough for first
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<Alfr>
nij, there's also package-local-nicknames (in some implementations), if you only want a shorter name for it.
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<White_Flame>
nij: if you're in CL-USER and doing things interactively, (use-package :cl-permutation) and that will make all the exported symbols from that visible in your current package.
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<White_Flame>
if you're writing code "for real" in files, then yeah you want your own defpackage which can import, use, or local-nickname the package as a proper dependency
<White_Flame>
modern style really does promote using the package:symbol naming to avoid collisions, and the nicknames allow making it very short, say (perm:foo ...) if you want
<White_Flame>
but :use (which would allow you to just simply call (foo ...) from that used package) is still common
<nij>
Oh thank you! Many options :) I will look into them. Thank you!
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<edgar-rft>
Emacs has tab-completion for long symbol names...
<edgar-rft>
cl-per<tab>
<White_Flame>
oh right, yeah. and it also tab-completes the package name, too
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