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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<Mixed_Case>
Hey everyone!
<beach>
Hello Mixed_Case.
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<billstclair>
I'm retiring, but that doesn't mean I'll stop hacking lisp. I'll just work on what I want, not what someone else pays me for.
<billstclair>
First project: Slime in JavaScript in the browser. Written in ClojureScript or Elm.
<billstclair>
It will initially use a <textarea>. Then I'll find or write an Emacs clone.
<beach>
Ambitious.
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<Mixed_Case>
^
<Mixed_Case>
That sounds like its gonna take a while
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<sm2n>
is there a reason why a vector being adjustable is not expressed in its type?
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<beach>
sm2n: I can't think of any such reason, but then, I am not as good with programming-language design as the creators of the Common Lisp standard were (are?).
<Mixed_Case>
If I had to guess, they probably wanted to stick to things that would definitely be useful at compile time (e.g. dimension and content type)
<Mixed_Case>
things that could be checked at runtime are easy to retrofit using existing type system features
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<Mixed_Case>
(namely using the SATISFIES type)
<sm2n>
beach, I see
<sm2n>
Mixed_Case, it would still be useful
<Mixed_Case>
oh, I don't disagree
<sm2n>
in particular you could do things like (coerce a-list '(vector * adjustable))
<Mixed_Case>
but, language design is complex
<sm2n>
though it's easy to paper over these things with wrapper functions, so not a huge deal
<Mixed_Case>
yeah, that's what I was gonna say
<sm2n>
yeah, of course
<Mixed_Case>
seems like a hammer in search of a nail IMO
<Mixed_Case>
(using coerce for that purpose, that is)
<sm2n>
why? it's consistent with (coerce a-list 'vector)
<Mixed_Case>
just because you *can* express that info in the type doesn't mean that's the best solution
<Mixed_Case>
its the solution that's readily available given that function signature
<sm2n>
that's true
<sm2n>
well, all in all, it just feels a bit annoying, but it's not anything I would consider broken
<Mixed_Case>
that's how I feel about a bunch of corners of lisp
<Mixed_Case>
its got a bunch of janky parts, but I love it to death
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<sm2n>
oh, now that I check more closely, that's not all as useful as I thought it was
<sm2n>
it's having a fill pointer that gives you access to vector-push-extend, not whether it's "actually adjustable", which is what prompted this
<Mixed_Case>
well, a fill pointer lets you use vector-push
<Mixed_Case>
vector-push-extend is going to want both a fill pointer and adjustability
<Mixed_Case>
(but I have to imagine some implementations of vector-push-extend might not complain about non-adjustability until the vector needs adjusting!)
<sm2n>
no that's not true from what I can tell
<Mixed_Case>
> An error of type error is signaled by vector-push-extend if it tries to extend vector and vector is not actually adjustable.
<Mixed_Case>
> vector-push-extend is just like vector-push except that if the fill pointer gets too large, vector is extended using adjust-array so that it can contain more elements. Extension is the minimum number of elements to be added to vector if it must be extended.
<Mixed_Case>
Looks like vector-push-extend should work until the vector is full regardless of adjustability
<sm2n>
oh I guess it's nonportable then
<sm2n>
simple test works on sbcl
<easye>
What's the contemporary way to recursively copy files on the filesystem? CL-FAD?
<Mixed_Case>
are you seeing that a non-adjustable vector gets adjusted?
<Mixed_Case>
easye I'd definitely use CL-FAD
<sm2n>
reading the ADJUST-ARRAY page, it says you can resize even if your array isn't adjustable, but identity won't necessarily be preserved (it allocates a new thing)
<sm2n>
being "actually adjustable" seems to be implementation-dependent when not "expressly adjustable"
<Mixed_Case>
ah, that'd do it
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<Mixed_Case>
huh. Usually SBCL hews pretty close to the standard
<Mixed_Case>
I'd have expected them to respect non-adjustable-ness
<Mixed_Case>
guess they don't HAVE to
<Mixed_Case>
but they go out of their way to detect all sorts of errors they don't have to, either...
* Mixed_Case
shrugs
<sm2n>
well good to know I guess
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<sm2n>
oh, that might answer the original question actually
<sm2n>
since you probably wouldn't want an implementation-dependent type
<Mixed_Case>
aren't implementations not obliged to specialize arrays based on type, either?
<beach>
SICL vectors are all both simple and adjustable.
<beach>
That is allowed by the standard.
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<sm2n>
really? does that mean that implementations are not required to support displacing arrays?
<sm2n>
well, vectors
<sm2n>
> If make-array is called with one or more of adjustable, fill-pointer, or displaced-to being true, whether the resulting array is a simple array is implementation-dependent.
<sm2n>
so an array being simple doesn't actually tell you much
<Mixed_Case>
yeah. What does simple even mean?
<beach>
sm2n: I don't think so. What makes you think that is the case?
<easye>
Simple means not-displaced not-adjustable
<beach>
easye: It does not.
<easye>
beach: ok.
<beach>
But not displaced and not adjustable means simple.
<sm2n>
beach, I had it in my head that displaced arrays were not simple, but that doesn't necessarily seem to be the case
<easye>
not-displaced not-adjustable no fill pointer?
<beach>
I forget exactly, but the standard says that it must be simple if some restrictions apply.
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<sm2n>
so as a user of the language, isn't whether an array is simple or not pretty much a useless distinction?
<beach>
It does not say anything about what happens when those restrictions do not apply.
<sm2n>
beach, easye: I linked it above
<beach>
Thanks.
<sm2n>
> The type of an array that is not displaced to another array, has no fill pointer, and is not expressly adjustable is a subtype of type simple-array. The concept of a simple array exists to allow the implementation to use a specialized representation and to allow the user to declare that certain values will always be simple arrays.
<sm2n>
or not quite, I suppose it's an abstraction for some kind of implementation dependent efficient representation, but it doesn't seem all that useful
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<ioa>
easye, I did have some plans to go deeper in the ASDF jungle, but never got time for it and asd-graph is still really superficial.
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<ioa>
billstclair: re Emacs/Slime on the browser => lovely idea! Have you considered compiling to WebAssembly via some toolchain?
<billstclair>
I'll consider it if it's too slow, but I doubt it will be.
<ioa>
looking forward to it. Is there a website/repository to watch?
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<billstclair>
ioa: You have prompted me to create the repository. Nothing there yet but a readme, but it's a start. https://github.com/billstclair/iSlime
<ioa>
thank you billstclair! I put it on my watchlist. :)
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<easye>
ioa: asd-graph is a lovely piece of code for its results. ASDF internals are notoriously difficult for most people to grok, so be happy you got something working. If I had the time I would help it out be actually interrogating the in-memory ASDF graph rather than parsing the forms directly as it now does.
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<easye>
(a totally understandable implementation choice given the dense thickets of ASDF internals you'd otherwise have to bushwhack)
<ioa>
thanks easye! Well I did discuss some of the issues with Robert Goldman a couple of years ago, and I seem to remember I wrote down a strategy on how to get a system's dependencies. So it's just the lack of time/priorities on other projects that have hindered this. :)
<ioa>
* from ASDF
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<ld>
good evening
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<cohnjalvin777>
a
<phoe>
cohnjalvin777: interesting, tell me more
<cohnjalvin777>
()
<phoe>
:(
<phoe>
okay
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<cohnjalvin777>
(islifeworthit)
<cohnjalvin777>
T
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<ldb>
does popular common lisp compilers does the divmod optimization? that calling mod with div for the same pair of numbers together reuses the value left in the registers?
<Bike>
you can just get both values at once with the floor, etc functions.
<Colleen>
Bike: drmeister said 8 hours, 19 minutes ago: If I want to make Matter_O a subclass of cl:sequence - how would I do that?
<Bike>
if you want to do integer division you'll be using floor or something anyway, rather than /
<flip214>
the questions is which CL compilers translate (FLOOR x INTEGER) to a multiplication and shift?
<Bike>
i think the question is whether compilers merge (values (floor x y) (mod x y)) into (floor x y), more or less
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<phoe>
this should be answerable by means of DISASSEMBLE
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<Bike>
i'm just not too concerned about it since, again, lisp does not have an integer division operation that doesn't also give you the remainder
<Bike>
(values (floor x y) (mod x y)) is not code anybody writes
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<Bike>
or if they do they can just be told to write floor instead.
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<adlai>
... even were minion still searching cliki, it appears that this implementation has evaporated.
<adlai>
although my current decade's project is financial software, this consists almost entirely of general-purpose libraries for scientific computing, and I am quite saddened to see that Scieneer has vanished.
<adlai>
in additional terrible news, domain name registration of the website hosting Henry Baker's archived works of research has expired.
<adlai>
I hope that copies of the publications themselves, or at the very least, the innovations described within, remain in existence.
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<adlai>
a handful of the papers are still accessible in various Internet Archives, although I have not bothered to spider the entire site.
* adlai
over;
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<flip214>
I just saw USOCKET:IP= and similar stuff; is there a function that says whether an IPv4 or IPv6 is in some subnet? 127.0/24, fccc::/16, etc.
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<Alfr>
flip214, iirc, simply apply that n-bit mask to to your subnet specification and the ip at hand and compare that they are equal, on of which you may be able to precompute and reuse.
<Alfr>
s/on of/one of/
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<flip214>
Alfr: yeah, thanks, I know the theory. But IP and netmask as string vs. octet vector, length of netmask depending on ipv4/v6, short-hand "::" etc.... that's why I asked
<Alfr>
I hate parsing things too. :) Thought to provide a short solution, didn't look into usocket.
<flip214>
well, usocket at least could do the parsing
<flip214>
thanks anyway!
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<nij>
I know a bit of elisp, and can interact with elisp thanks to emacs. I'm looking for an interface for common lisp too.
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<pve>
nij: if you're comfortable with emacs, then you should install slime and use that
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<nij>
pve: thanks! I have it running in my emacs. I've also loaded the main file (`cl-permutation.asd`) into slime. But it does not automatically load the lisp files in ``src``.. did I do anything wrong?
<pve>
nij: try (require :cl-permutation)
<nij>
(require :cl-permutation)
<nij>
ASDF could not load cl-permutation because
<nij>
Component #:ALEXANDRIA not found, required by #<SYSTEM "cl-permutation">.
<pve>
you should symlink the asd file to a directory in your load path also, or make sure that the entire source folder is in the load path
<pve>
if you have quicklisp you should do (quicklisp:quickload :cl-permutation), it will download the dependencies
<pve>
~/common-lisp is in the load path by default, i think
<pve>
nij: you must ensure that the shell command "sbcl --quit --eval '(quicklisp:quickload :cl-permutation)'" works before you start doing anything with slime (I'm assuming SBCL here)
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<nij>
thanks folks. I'm still trying. I'm sure after this phase it will be fun.
<nij>
Oh JEEZ it works T__T
<nij>
Thank you so much.
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<asarch>
What does "The return value of DELETE should not be discarded." mean?
<phoe>
asarch: exactly what it states
<Bike>
it means you're doing something like (progn (delete x y) y) and expecting y to be the list sans x
<phoe>
you should not use DELETE for side effects
<Bike>
i.e. relying on delete to have a particular side effect.
<phoe>
rather, you should use its return value
<asarch>
I have: (defparameter *food*) (setf *food* (append *food* '(tacos pizza tlayudas))) and later (delete 'tacos *food*)
<sm2n>
that's bad
<Bike>
so you're calling delete for effect, yeah. don't do that.
<asarch>
(setf *food* (delete 'pizza *food*))
<phoe>
(setf *food* (delete 'tacos *food*))
<asarch>
?
<sm2n>
you need (setf *food* (delete 'tacos *food*)) instead
<sm2n>
heh
<Bike>
it is perfectly fine for an implementation to define delete = remove, so it has no side effects at all.
<asarch>
Ok
<phoe>
or (alexandria:deletef *food* 'tacos)
<phoe>
DELETEF can be used for side effects
<asarch>
I see
<asarch>
Thank you guys
<asarch>
Thank you very much :-)
<mokulus>
Why is this like this?
<mokulus>
if it's a linked list then why do you need to reassign?
<White_Flame>
because the head can be no longer where the head used to be
<White_Flame>
what if the first element is deleted?
<Bike>
the standard gives implementations considerable leeway over what side effects can occur. any side effects are intended cocneptually as an increased performance thing, rather than being part of the semantics.
<phoe>
this seems like a sorta comprehensive list of papers
<Gnuxie[m]>
baker is a real life badass
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<asarch>
One stupid question: Common Lisp classes are not fist class objects, right?
<Bike>
no, they are
<Bike>
try (find-class 'integer) or something, you get an object back. can put it in lists or whatever
<asarch>
Thank you
<phoe>
types are not first class objects; classes are
<phoe>
so, like, the type KEYWORD is not a first-class object, but the class SYMBOL is one
<pillton>
What is required to make a type a first class object?
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<p_l>
Implementation magic
<phoe>
and extensions to the standard behavior
<p_l>
AFAIK nothing stops a conforming CL implementation from doing that (I think SICL might have gone that way?)
<phoe>
e.g. you'd like to be able to pass type objects to TYPEP
<pillton>
You can pass type objects to typep.
<phoe>
(typep 1 (find-type 'integer))
<Bike>
sicl hasn't done that
<phoe>
pillton: huh? what do you mean?
<phoe>
you can't pass type objects because there are no type objects
<Bike>
classes are type objects, sorta, but obviously not all types are classes
<phoe>
type specifiers are not type objects
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<pillton>
Hmm.. a type specifier defines a representation in much the same way a class does.
<Bike>
a type specifier has names and is environment dependent
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<Bike>
it is a "specifier", after all, not the type itself
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<pillton>
You can test equality. You can test if one is a subtype of another.
<Bike>
you can test the equality of the specified types. you can't get at the actual type. all you have is a name
<Bike>
it's as if instead of classes you had to use class names
<pillton>
Sure, I get that the representation is poor, but what can't you do with it that you can with something that has "first class" status?
<Bike>
validly use it in any way without providing the environment
<phoe>
describe and inspect it
<phoe>
like, calling DESCRIBE on '(or integer string) will not tell you that it is a type specifier
<phoe>
you cannot check if some value is a type; even checking if it is a type specifier is troublesome
<Alfr>
pillton, subtypep may simply return nil nil, for all but the few cases specified in the spec.
<Bike>
that's a limitation of subtypep not directly related to first class ness
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<Alfr>
Bike, only wanted to point out, that we won't get a definitive answer for all type specifier pairs we may think of to feed to subtypep.
<pillton>
I fail to see how elevating it to first class status helps with that problem.
<Bike>
it does not.
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<Bike>
phoe's right that being able to tell if something is a type is a big one, though. one time i saw a system trying to do (ignore-errors (subtypep x t)) to see if x was a type specifier
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<pillton>
Interesting.
<Bike>
(this does not work)
<pillton>
Because the environment argument is missing?
<Usersda>
Hello everyone.
<Bike>
because subtypep does not actually have to signal an error if provided a non-type-specifier, among other reasons
<pillton>
Oh of course.
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<pillton>
You could say the same thing about environments not being first class.
<Bike>
environments are not first class, no
<Usersda>
I was wondering if i could get an opinion. This teacher is describing simple JS code. I noticed the relevant code he points out later and i think it's from years of parsing c++ bullshit. Am i mistaken or is what he doing what LISP philosophy teaches from the get go. https://youtu.be/F-JvvFlYcts?t=277
<pillton>
It is a curious definition.
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