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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<Oladon>
Good morning, beach!
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Morning!
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<I729>
good morning also
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<beach>
Hello I729. Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
<I729>
ah yes, I recently joined some days ago (as lotuseater)
<beach>
Ah, new nick. I recognize lotuseater.
<I729>
don't worry I'm here to share lisp thoughts
<beach>
I wasn't planning to worry.
<I729>
okay. and here it is 10:16am :)
<I729>
and my nick comes from the anecdote of Hardy and Ramanujan with the taxicab numbers
<beach>
Nice. I missed it.
<I729>
what execatly?
<I729>
*exactly
<beach>
The reference.
<I729>
1729 = 1^3 + 12^3 = 9^3 + 10^3
<I729>
but I think query would be better I don't want to get people grumpy here
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<I729>
I had to learn experimentally that if you do something like (make-array 3 :element-type '(integer 0 99)) also numbers up to 127 are allowed (which makes sense)
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<beach>
That depends on the implementation.
<no-defun-allowed>
I don't think they really are allowed, but the implementation won't check.
<no-defun-allowed>
I don't particuarly like CL21, but it won't change how arrays work.
<beach>
Is CL21 Fukamachi's work?
<oni-on-ion>
afaik SBCL has strictness levels
<I729>
yes you're right. some things of CL21 seem nice
<no-defun-allowed>
I'd have to check.
* beach
is not sure about the western spelling of his name.
<I729>
oni-on-ion please tell more
<I729>
so beach from which country are you from?
<no-defun-allowed>
oni-on-ion: It doesn't seem likely that the compiler will detect anything, if it upgrades the element type. Then a program that uses the array of that upgraded element type as suggested would work, but it's highly dependent on how types are upgraded.
<beach>
I729: That question is a very hard one for me.
<I729>
oh sorry
<beach>
I729: "I live in France" is the closest to an answer you will get.
<I729>
cool. I live in Germany
<beach>
Good for you.
<I729>
no-defun-allowed my thought with make-array was that it can just use byte lengths
<oni-on-ion>
i do not know about upgraded types, but aeth knows more of [sb]CL typing than I
<beach>
I729: I like Germany. Or at least the places I have visited. But it's off topic.
<no-defun-allowed>
For example, I like having ELT, AREF and NTH because they communicate the complexity to the reader (AREF is O(1), NTH is O(n), ELT could be either) and as opposed to some names I've heard people puke out at university, long names are actually readable.
<no-defun-allowed>
But there are some fair points, like how GETF and GETHASH take arguments in different ways. And regular expression literals are hard (but we have CL-INTERPOL for regular expression literal syntax. And it's not my regular expression library.)
<I729>
yes but for some reason AREF with multiple dimension vectors is slower
<no-defun-allowed>
Vectors are single-dimension arrays. Multiple dimensional vectors don't exist.
<I729>
or when you use the "#(" readmacro normal you do #(A B C) but in CL21 you can just if it is bound
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<I729>
sorry my fault you're right :D
<I729>
arrays I meant
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<no-defun-allowed>
The first two commits I see are "Delete 'ed', 'room' and 'dribble' because they look useless." and "add standard-char to etypecase with convenience wrapper [as the splitting pattern for RE-SPLIT]". I use ROOM very frequently, and STANDARD-CHAR is _absolutely_ the wrong type to use.
<no-defun-allowed>
Try (typep #\¬ 'standard-char) — I would not expect to be able to split on #\Space, but not split on #\¬, even though I may rarely do the latter.
<no-defun-allowed>
I'm too good at complaining, so I'll stop there. But I don't think you should rely on how an element type is upgraded; and so if you give the element type (integer 0 99) to MAKE-ARRAY, don't try to put values that aren't (integer 0 99) into that array.
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<I729>
okay
<no-defun-allowed>
beach: Silly question, would ROOM tell you how much disk space you have used on CLOSOS?
<I729>
oh cool something like Mezzano
<no-defun-allowed>
I'm terribly sorry that it's probably a boring question.
<beach>
no-defun-allowed: I haven't given it much thought, but I suppose so, yes.
<no-defun-allowed>
Heh.
<beach>
It will be very tricky to implement in a way that it gives any useful information.
<moon-child>
modulo buffering and fragmentation, presumably?
<beach>
Stuff like that.
<moon-child>
(though of course purely in-memory allocators have fragmentation too. And buffered but as-yet unwritten data can still be considered part of an application's footprint. So it may not be worth covering those two in particular.)
<no-defun-allowed>
(But DRIBBLE and ED would be very handy; you'd have somewhat more permanent REPL logs, and with a nice environment ED, well, brings up an editor quickly. I think it says something if they're useless in a "modern" context.)
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<no-defun-allowed>
It brings up an editor on a pathname or the site of a function definition.
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<I729>
and no silly question, thanks, I now found this paper on OSes
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<srji>
whats the "f" in (setf ..) means? ist it "set form"?
<I729>
good question *hmm*
<srji>
it seems everything has a meaning in lisp e.g. setq means set quote and "p" is a predicate
<I729>
yes, the committee invested much in designing it but also some is historically like CAR and CDR
<srji>
the internet says it means forms or field
<I729>
this generic setter idea is great
<I729>
srji did you already know PSETF and PSETQ?
<srji>
no
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<I729>
those are the parallel versions, because in a SETQ you can set not just one parameter, but many, evaluated from left to right
<srji>
i see
<srji>
and setf can evaluate forms
<I729>
so (defvar x 1) and then (setq x 2 y (* x x)) gives y = 4 but (psetq x 2 y (* x x)) is y = 1
<I729>
yes right
<I729>
it expands the getter to a setter form
<I729>
as a function for eg AREF you have #'(SETF AREF)
<I729>
but in defstruct or defclass they are created so you don't have to bother
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<edgar-rft>
If I remeber right (but I might be wrong) then SETF appeared when arrays came to Lisp somewhere in the 1960s, and at that time it was an acronym for SET Field (of an array) as some sort of syntactic counterpart to AREF. Because SETF was implemented as a macro it was later expanded to SET other places, too, including symbols, what means that today it can even be used instead of SETQ.
<edgar-rft>
Many books today teach to use SETF instead of SETQ to avoid confusuion.
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<I729>
yes it macroexpands then to setq
<I729>
do you also know what THE stands for?
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<edgar-rft>
In Common Lisp THE emphasizes that something is of a specific data type. (the fixnum 42) might signal an error if 42 is a float. Makes of course more sense if used with variables.
<phoe>
THE is a type promise to the compiler
<I729>
i knew that
<I729>
but what the name stands for
<phoe>
the english "the"
<I729>
hmm ok
<I729>
so also a promise for optimizing?
<phoe>
yes
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<phoe>
if DECLARE TYPE is for variables, then THE is for values
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<I729>
aha!
<I729>
there is this quote "only values have types not variables"
<edgar-rft>
phoe: thanks, I had the feeling that something was missing :-)
<phoe>
edgar-rft: what exactly do you mean?
<phoe>
I729: by default this is true in Lisp
<edgar-rft>
phoe: DECLARE is for variables, not THE
<phoe>
but you can go from strong dynamic typing into weak static typing - DECLARE TYPE and THE are tools for the job
<phoe>
edgar-rft: I see
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<edgar-rft>
weak typing is what I do with my fingers :-)
<I729>
i know there is something on stackoverflow but for me with Haskell as my second main language I thought about how to make recursive algebraic data types
<I729>
hehe
<phoe>
that's undoable with the Lisp type system
<I729>
not to forget dependent typing *hide*
<I729>
phoe yes that it what I also found
<phoe>
Lisp types cannot refer to themselves because Lisp types are mostly based on set theory
<I729>
good to know, so with category theory it is possible
<phoe>
there is a loophole named SATSFIES that lets you do more creative things, but it comes at a cost - compilers cannot optimize those types well
* edgar-rft
wants types based on SETF theory :-)
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<I729>
but so well I don't know GHC as how it is done there. maybe one day
<I729>
okay I can live with the aspect if it's not possible
<phoe>
coalton, among other things, implements ADTs in Lisp
<I729>
oh I had one time tried cl-algebraic-data-types
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<Josh_2>
afternoon
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<beach>
Hello Josh_2.
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<Josh_2>
Is an :around method called before the :before?
<beach>
Yes.
<Josh_2>
okay cool, just making sure
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<flip214>
with UIOP:launch-program, can I have arbitrary file handles passed on? Ie. create a socketpair or pipe and pass one end as FD 17 or whatever?
<etimmons>
flip214: not portably. All implementations I'm aware of either close all extra file handles without a way to override (e.g., SBCL) or pass all of them on without a way to override (e.g., ECL)
<etimmons>
But if an implementation allows you to configure that, you can add the necessary keyword args to UIOP:LAUNCH-PROGRAM. It passes all unknown args through to the implementation, IIRC
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