jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | offtopic --> #lispcafe
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<oni-on-ion> SB-EXT:SYMBOL-PACKAGE-LOCKED-ERROR what
<oni-on-ion> my own defpackage
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<oni-on-ion> good morning beach
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<Iolen> Hello all guys, who f*ck alone with own hand !
<no-defun-allowed> So, you've come into #lisp saying that sentence, and your first thought is to censor out the word "fuck".
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<charlie770> Does anyone know what the optional argument for gensym is used for?
<beach> clhs gensym
<White_Flame> string prefix before the number, instead of just "G"
<White_Flame> in sbcl, it's poorly named as THING
<charlie770> White_Flame: got it.
<White_Flame> oh, right, it can be used to reset the counter, so it's either a string or integer
<charlie770> White_Flame: but why would anyone want to do that?
<White_Flame> legacy options packed into a single function
<White_Flame> s/reset/override/
<charlie770> what does "get" do in common-lisp?
<beach> clhs get
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<beach> charlie770: Those links are for you.
<White_Flame> each symbol has a value, but also a sideband key/value property list
<White_Flame> (and other stuff, too)
<charlie770> beach: thanks
<charlie770> White_Flame: what do you mean?
<charlie770> an example?
<White_Flame> the example in the GET page there does walk through the steps
<White_Flame> makes arbitrary symbols with GENSYM, and sets stuff in its plist
<White_Flame> this style isn't used very often in modern code, though, since hashtables were created after those
<White_Flame> are you reading really old code?
<charlie770> White_Flame: the source of lem
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<White_Flame> yep, I see that in there now
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<no-defun-allowed> I would have thought I could find some techniques for reducing latency when pointer-chasing in Netfarm from object-oriented databases (which are neither), but the papers don't really have impressive results.
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<White_Flame> yeah, the plists can be pretty fast depending on how often they're used
<no-defun-allowed> Oops, this isn't #lispcafe.
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<fiddlerwoaroof> hhdave: that clim-web system looks cool, but I seem to have to use a fairly old parenscript to make it work?
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<charlie770> clhs declare
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<jackdaniel> I've wanted to comment on reddit, but comments are blocked. what a pity ;)
<beach> Is what you wanted to comment on relevant to the topic here? If so, do you have a link?
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<phoe> jackdaniel: are you thinking of the same thread that I am thinking of?
<jackdaniel> yes, it is a Common Lisp Revival Fundraiser https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/k2wua9/common_lisp_revival_2020_fundraiser/, I've wanted to point out that it lacks credibility
<flip214> johnjay: well, something like Java's foreign look isn't appreciated.... and having some abstraction that provides simple dialogs should be possible, no?
<jackdaniel> because the person behind it had practically zero impact on the community (putting aside insults)
<jackdaniel> I'd love to elaborate, I'm going afk, sorry (and indeed, mentioning that was a bit offtopic on my side)
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<flip214> fiddlerwoaroof: CAPI as in the Cryptography API, the telephone API, the PowerPC API? How does that help with UI?
<phoe> flip214: CAPI like the LispWorks GUI framework most likely
<flip214> right now I'm using hunchentoot and start a local browser
<flip214> phoe: ah, okay, didn't know about that yet
<phoe> one of the things that LispWorks is most famous for
<flip214> hmmm, okay... there's no OS reimplementation, I guess
<beach> jackdaniel: Who is behind it?
<beach> Oh, that one?
<phoe> beach: the very same one
<jackdaniel> i shouldnt feed trolls, and giving them presence seems to be feeding
<jackdaniel> so sorry for linking. yes, it is that person
<jackdaniel> ill be back later todat o/
<White_Flame> I've dealt with such in other spheres as well. They simply don't go away if ignored, either
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<fiddlerwoaroof> My favorite thing on reddit was the thread where someone told stassats to check SBCL out
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<aeth> link?
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<pve> classy response :)
<MichaelRaskin> A bit too deadpan, as it is appreciated by the audience but not by the counterparty
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<phoe> the best thing is the stylewarning under comment https://www.reddit.com/r/LispMemes/comments/k2rtnh/
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<Josh_2> phoe: The art you made out of the little lisp lizard is fantastic
<phoe> Josh_2: thanks; glad that you like it
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<Gnuxie[m]> there is art?
<Gnuxie[m]> oh right, yeah, those are cool :3
* phoe blush
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<Xach> I am adapting Vectometry into an animated gif library. I intend to quantize the canvas to 256 colors with the octree method.
<Xach> Has anyone else quantized with that or another method before?
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<Xach> Reading the paper involves puzzling out pascal syntax and semantics :~(
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<MichaelRaskin> Of all languages, Pascal is not a hard one with respect of figuring out syntax or semantics just from reading…
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* edgar-rft tries hard to imagine an animated library
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<splittist> It's a better way of presenting the source code - not just colorized, but dynamic...
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<phoe> Xach: what's Vectometry?
<phoe> oooooh, I see
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<ldb> good evening everyone
<phoe> hello
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<jeosol> Good morning guys!
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<Josh_2> Hey
<jeosol> Hi Josh_2
<jeosol> I see a new SBCL is out today. BTW, how are you guys managing and testing with compiler version. I normally just upgrade with a new version and regenerate a bunch of core files.
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<jeosol> However, I am getting to a point where I may pin things down to use certain version. I have not used roswell, so may be it does what I need. I try not to update on a machine that runs my long jobs
<jeosol> open to ideas
<ldb> I think most common lisps are compatible with old versions
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<ldb> and that is one reason I like CL
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<Josh_2> I just dont update for about a year
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<jeosol> Ldb: very good point, I have never had any incompatible issues at all. Only issue is the core files I used, I sometimes run a docker image.
<jeosol> yeah, regarding incompatible changes, I occasionally have to deal with "python version hell"
<jeosol> Josh_2: A year is nice.
<jeosol> not big changes month to month, but probably more from year to year
<ldb> jeosol: Oh, I don't assume binary file compatiblilty
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<jeosol> ldb: yeah, that's my main issue - though, I could just keep the old versions and use the old binary files. It doesn't take much to generate the core files.
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<jeosol> I am trying to learn docker .. and its docker-compose, but I haven't been able to make things work well - the part where run a service.
<ldb> it might be a good idea to keep the SBCL version util some major upgrades are made to your program
<jeosol> yeah I agree.
<jeosol> I think managing multiple versions on same manage is probably not worth the hassle
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<beach> mop extract-lambda-list
<specbot> Matches: extract-lambda-list, extract-lambda-list.
<beach> Hmm.
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<beach> Is it fair to say that the purpose of this function is to take a specialized lambda list and return a generic-function lambda list?
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<Bike> maybe for the "defmethod without a defgeneric" case, but it's more generally useful
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<beach> OK. I guess my question is whether things like default values for &optional and &key parameters should be removed.
<beach> ... and supplied-p parameters.
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<beach> ... and &aux parameters.
<Bike> i think it usually removes defaults and stuff? on existing implementations i mean
<beach> OK, I'll go with that for now. Thanks.
<cl-arthur> the description only says that it removes specializers, though. I'd find it surprising if something described as removing specializers also removes information unrelated to specializers.
<jeosol> I took an interest after beach's link. I ran the last command, but didn't get &optional in the rest, but got &rest instead
<beach> jeosol: The last example is wrong.
<jeosol> sbcl --v2.0.10 if that matters
<jeosol> oh ok
<jeosol> I was surprised at the result, so I said I should try it out. Good to know
<beach> cl-arthur: Hmm, I think you are right. This thing is useful for the method function.
<beach> I'll just write a separate function for extracting a generic-function lambda list from a method lambda list.
<cl-arthur> sounds like a good approach to me :)
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<hhdave> fiddlerwoaroof: I'm glad you're interested in it. It does use an old parenscript, yes. I tried a newer one but it broke some code I was generating. It would be nice to update it though.
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<johnjay> hhdave: that reminds me, I was going to ask what are the cutting-edge type libraries in CL
<johnjay> I suppose people never remove things from a language. But it can evolve over time with new libraries
<johnjay> nyxt looks cool for example
<phoe> johnjay: cutting-edge type libraries? you mean something with type systems?
<phoe> I'd suggest Coalton and Jim Newton's https://github.com/jimka2001/regular-type-expression that are both pretty damn useful
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<johnjay> i just mean new
<johnjay> "rational type sequence"?
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<johnjay> ok it's regular expressions but for types in common lisp
<johnjay> i thought it was something weirder or more abtract for specifying context free grammars
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<phoe> oooooh
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<exit70[m]> hi, I want to have a macintosh common lisp vintage
<exit70[m]> (continue) setup.
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<exit70[m]> I tried 5.2 (from https://code.google.com/archive/p/mcl/downloads)on 10.4 and 4.2 (from an abandonware site) on 9.1/9.2.2
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<exit70[m]> neither has working "save application"
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<johnjay> is mcclim mostly functional at this point?
<johnjay> i assume that's why it says climaxima in the name
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<phoe> yes
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<scymtym> McCLIM is not strictly functional in the sense of, for example, ELM, but it has a concept of presenting data, accepting a user command, then re-presenting the possibly changed data
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<exit70[m]> I will test my luck with some old mac emulators. my ppc macs might be too "new"
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<Josh_2> can I use fast-io to read from a file or do I have to read my data and then I can use fast-io for rapid read writing once in ram?
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<phoe> fast-io creates this buffer structure
<phoe> it has an underlying stream
<phoe> so you can create a fast-io buffer from a stream and then use fast-io read functions on that buffer object
<Josh_2> See thats what I tried but I guess I was doing it wrong
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<Josh_2> I was just getting 0 each fast-read-byte
<johnjay> scymtym: ah i realize the ambiguity in what I said
<johnjay> I meant functional as in mostly bug free, not functional programming
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<Josh_2> phoe: but I create a stream using (with-open-file ..)
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<phoe> oh wait a second
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<phoe> then (make-input-buffer :stream s) should work well
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<scymtym> johnjay: i see. McCLIM is not mostly bug free, but getting better
<Josh_2> I just get two large arrays of 0's
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<phoe> hmmmmmm
<phoe> I am too sleepy to properly factor with-fast-input in there
<Josh_2> hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
<Josh_2> one sec
<Josh_2> yay!
<phoe> :O
<Josh_2> doing it how you have worked!
<Josh_2> Thanks phoe
<phoe> yay! I still remember something from fast-io
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<Josh_2> well interestingly enough, fast-io is about twice as slow as just using read-byte
<Josh_2> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<phoe> maybe we're still using it wrong
<phoe> I don't remember what exactly is required to make it properly fast
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<Josh_2> I have never used it before so this is a first for me
<phoe> instead of map-into, try fast-read-sequence
<Josh_2> wew
<phoe> does this change things?
<Josh_2> braaaaah
<Josh_2> thats so fast it seems wrong...
<phoe> good
<Josh_2> instead of taking 17 seconds it takes .2...
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<Josh_2> wew
<Josh_2> Thats kinda unreal
<phoe> I think that's what happens when sequence reading is not dominated by function call overhead
<Josh_2> turns out I've been reading files (when not using alexandria) wrong this entire time
<phoe> not really wrong per se
<phoe> just possibly in a slow way
<Josh_2> well in this case I have used osicat to determine the size of the file before hand
<Josh_2> instead of just looping until EOF
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<Josh_2> normal read-sequence is faster than the fast-io
<phoe> ooooooh
<phoe> welp
<Josh_2> .226 to .262 (fast-io), not much difference but still
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<Josh_2> To be fair to fast-io when reading the same file 1000x I reckon my drive will be the bottle neck
<pve> Josh_2: I believe cl:file-length will also give you the file size.
<Josh_2> Yes, from a stream
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<jcowan> I'd like to see a use case where a condition type directly inherits from more than one condition supertype. Can anyone think of one?
<phoe> jcowan: simple-warning
<phoe> (define-condition simple-warning (warning simple-condition) ())
<phoe> simple-error, simple-control-error, simple-program-error, simple-reader-error, ...
<phoe> for an application named FOO, (define foo-condition () ()) and then (define foo-error (error foo-condition) ()) (define specific-foo-error (foo-error) (...))
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<phoe> these are the two most obvious ones I can think of, the first one being actually mandated by the CL standard
<jcowan> Okay, let me reformulate. Where neither of the direct supertypes are generic ones like simple-condition.
<MichaelRaskin> nfs-condition could plausibly be a subtype of both network and filesystem condition
<phoe> I guess it's like with classes; whenever you'd otherwise need multiple inheritance for whatever reason..
<phoe> so wherever e.g. mixin classes^Wcondition types come into play
<phoe> more from the standard, reader-error is both a parse-error and a stream-error
<jcowan> MichaelRaskin: It seems to me that a NFS condition could be either a network or a filesystem condition, but hardly both. If you get a network error, you have no access to the file system, ugye?
<phoe> (define-condition person-not-allowed-into-building (person-error building-error) ()) and such
* phoe goes asleep
<MichaelRaskin> jcowan: you get a network error, and you get failed read
<MichaelRaskin> From a file
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<jcowan> Ah, thanks. Excellent point.
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