jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | offtopic --> #lispcafe
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<wglb> phoe: both are 64 bit.
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<fwoaroof[m]> hi
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<phoe> wglb: I'd try to debug it by first trying to call CFFI:LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY directly
<phoe> and checking if this succeeds
<phoe> if not, then checking the dlopen systace I guess
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<fiddlerwoaroof[m> The best part of programming is how you can always make work to avoid the bits you don't want to do :)
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<phoe> that's why "procrastinating" starts with a "pro"
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<oni-on-ion> =)
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<flip214> I've got a (DEFUN foo (.. &key a)), and in the same file later on a call to FOO - with a mistyped keyword argument.
<flip214> I would have expected to get a compile error via ASDF, but it was silently successful... Do I need to change some parameter to get "better" checking?
<flip214> I'm well aware that FOO could have been redefined before being called, but at least a warning or style-warning would be nice.
<aeth> flip214: which implementation? I do get an error here in SBCL: (with-compilation-unit () (defun foo (&key a) a) (defun bar () (foo :b 42)))
<scymtym> flip214: with SBCL i get a full warning for COMPILE-FILE and an error from ASDF for a file containing (defun foo (&key a)) (defun bar () (foo :b 2))
<flip214> aeth: sbcl, but no compilation-unit used
<scymtym> or do you mean that the value of the keyword argument is of the wrong type when you say "mistyped"?
<aeth> (* warning, not error)
<flip214> scymtym: that's what I want, yeah
<aeth> flip214: compilation-unit will behave the same as a file compilation (so C-c C-k, not C-c C-c)
<flip214> scymtym: the wrong keyword used, like aeth's example has
<phoe> so a typo error, not a type error
<aeth> I used with-compilation-unit so I could get the same effect as a file compilation, but in the REPL
<scymtym> flip214: my example is like that as well and as i said, i get a full warning and ASDF error
<aeth> (at least how SBCL treats it)
<phoe> which SBCL and ASDF versions?
<flip214> yeah, I wrote "mistyped"... that wasn't clear enough, sorry
<flip214> sbcl 2.0.10+some git and asdf 3.3.1
<phoe> I get something like this
<flip214> my script does a quickload and then dumps an image
<phoe> this is after C-c C-k
<flip214> with (ql:ql ... :verbose T) I can see some warnings
<flip214> hmmm, even (asdf:operate ... :on-warnings :error) doesn't work as expected
<scymtym> without :VERBOSE, quicklisp seems to muffle all warnings, not just style warnings. that is probably why the "outcome" changes
<scymtym> flip214: did you change the source file or delete the FASL before trying the above? once the FASL is produced, no compilation is performed and the warning is not signaled again
<flip214> scymtym: I'm writing the source file again (of course ;)
<flip214> and the :verbose t output includes warnings, but the script doesn't stop with an error
<scymtym> "touching" it in some way should be enough
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<flip214> with an explicit error (ie. ":::" in a source file) compilation stops
<scymtym> flip214: can you share the code? this seems to be more about the surrounding setup than SBCL or ASDF
<flip214> well, the part I expect to error out is
<flip214> (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :XXX :on-warnings :error :on-failure :error :verbose t)
<phoe> :force t
<phoe> otherwise it might just load the precompiled FASLs
<flip214> I touched a file with warnings, and the file gets recompiled - I get the warnings during compilation
<flip214> but it doesn't stop
<flip214> :force doesn't help
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<jackdaniel> are they maybe style warnings?
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<phoe> jackdaniel: seem like full warnings
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<flip214> either way ASDF should error out
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<edgar-rft> I think typos are type-errors, too. But they happen at TYPE-TIME what is *before* READ-TIME. The spec doesn't seem to be very well-worded in that regard :-)
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<davros_> r.e. lisp / AI / programs rewriting themselves:
<davros_> how far did this all get ? are people still trying to do this?
<edgar-rft> There are some success stories but also many projects we never heard of again. Maybe they accidentally deleted themselves :-)
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<edgar-rft> davros_: I played for some time with Genetic Programming but it turned out that writing a working fitness function (the thing that decides if the generated code works better or worse than some other code) requires more detaIl knowlege than is needed for solving the problem youself.
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<edgar-rft> It's in so far good that you learn a lot about different AI ideas and concepts but do not expect too much useful results :-)
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<davros_> edgar-rft, i ask because elsewhere i'm talking to someone who has their own picture of how to do AGI and it involves code generation (although what they describe sounds even more far fetched), i asked them if they'd ever heard of lisp beign used for this sort of thing
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<Josh_2> Afternoon all
<flip214> edgar-rft: well, the fitness function for tic-tac-toe was easy enough
<edgar-rft> yes. for *you*! :-)
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<edgar-rft> davros_: you don't necessarily need Lisp for self-rewriting code, but in Lisp it's particularly easy because lists are first-class data objects, so everything for code generation is already built-in. Also Genetic Programming *can* give useful results, but often it depends on how lucky you are to find a useful result in tolerable time :-)
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<davros_> yeah i know - any programming langauge can print source and spawn a compiler, or load dynamc modules or ahve an eval function.. but it's LISP's homoiconicity that's it's USP
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<flip214> edgar-rft: well, self-*modifying* code is very easy on CPUs without any MMU... 6502, for example ;)
<phoe> in today's environment, homoiconicity is just a shortcut; people work around this issue in other languages by operating on ASTs, or just printing out code into strings and reading it afterwards
<phoe> structural macros are finding their way even into Python, you know
<aorst> string based macros are way harder to manipulate though
<flip214> aorst: well, one major point in Let-over-lambda was code-walking - "understanding" the language needs more than just a CONS-tree. (LET (let) (LET ((let let)) let))
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<edgar-rft> as the Beatles sung: Let it be...
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<tfb> phoe: there's a difference still: Lisp has a 'syntax of least commitment', Python (say) doesn't, anywhere near
<phoe> yes\
<phoe> as I said, people *work around* this issue; I did not say they *solve* it
<tfb> yes, sorry was not disagreeing (also did not read you carefully enough...)
<beach> And the workaround is painful.
<phoe> ^
<tfb> and the *common* workaround is still 'language in a string' and the death and horror of that
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<edgar-rft> death and horror sounds nice :-)
<flip214> we need a _horror for our _death
<tfb> edgar-rft: setiously, in my most recent job the system was configured by, I think, two (perhaps three) layered m4-style macro languages, each treating the languages below it as strings.
<splittist> everyone knows there is no problem in devops that can't be solved by another layer of yaml
<edgar-rft> tfb: I'm sorry to hear the you're working with idiots :-)
<edgar-rft> the=that
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<tfb> edgar-rft: well, they weren't idiots, anywhere near. I think that the ideas that make Lisp so interesting just are still not widely distributed.
<tfb> On the other hand, the end of this whole process was FORTRAN, so ... well
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<cl-arthur> ';;;
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<phoe> clhs eql
<phoe> "eql may not be true of two floats even when they represent the same value. = is used to compare mathematical values."
<phoe> how does that work?
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<phoe> the notes seem to contradict point 2 of the description
<_death> think +0.0 and -0.0
<phoe> yes, that's the special case mentioned in the description
<sjl> 1.0d0 and 1.0f0 represent the same value but might not be eql because they're different types (in SBCL)
<phoe> I am thinking of numbers of the same type
<phoe> maybe it's also the case with e.g. +0.0 and +0.0 with different exponents?
<phoe> or two distinct NaNs?
<phoe> I cannot thinking of other cases
<_death> not sure what you're wonder about
<_death> *wondering
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<phoe> cases where this might apply in practice other than negative/positive zero
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<mfiano> Well
<phoe> s/thinking/thnik/
<phoe> ...
<mfiano> The standard doesn't adopt IEEE754, only recommends its use. They may have been implying that depending on the floating point encoding, it may not hold true, but = does. (eql 0f0 -0f0) ; => NIL, but (= 0f0 -0f0) ; => T
<daphnis> how do you write a macro that accepts unquoted symbols and produces a function call with quoted symbols? eg.: (mac a b c) --> (fun 'a 'b 'c)
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<daphnis> with an arbitrary nr of args
<no-defun-allowed> (defmacro mac (&rest rest) `(fun ,@(loop for symbol in rest collect (list 'quote rest))))
<daphnis> no-defun-allowed: thanks!
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<mfiano> alternatively, something like: (defmacro foo (sym &body body) `(,sym ,@(mapcar (lambda (x) `',x) body)))
<mfiano> (untested)
<Nilby> phoe: consider maybe an implementation that natively supported different float formats like maxima's bigfloat
<phoe> Nilby: OK, I see
<phoe> that would still be different float types though, wouldn't it?
<_death> phoe: you can encode all pairs, sans a few large easy-to-demarcate portions of equivalence classes, of floats by bruteforce and try them
<phoe> or you mean formats?
<Nilby> I frequently wish there was such a thing.
<Nilby> maybe I guess I mean the internal represntations, not exactly the format
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<_death> Nilby: do you mean like clisp's variable precision long-floats, or sbcl's sb-mpfr?
<mfiano> Always found CLISP's arbitrary precision floats strange, in regard to the constant value pi. IIRC, the manual even says that it is no longer a constant value, which seems wrong to me.
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<_death> well, it's an approximation after all
<mfiano> yes, but a constant approximation.
<Nilby> _death: Yes, but I'm not that pleased with clisp anymore, and I haven't used sb-mpfr because I worry about implementation in C and possible overhead.
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<Nilby> I know gmp is widely used and well tested, so I probably should get over it.
<daphnis> mfiano: oh, that's nice.
<_death> I never found actual use for them.. for floating point, I'm fine with single and double precision.. and sometimes I need to move to a fixed point or maintain my own scaling or use rationals (slow..) or logarithms solve the issue.. but not arbitrary precision floats
<Nilby> I love how close to mathematically correct Lisp math is relative to other languages, but it starts getting corrupt with floating point error. I've be gravely injured before (in virtual realites) by floating point error.
<moon-child> I like ball arithmetic
<moon-child> iirc nars2000 apl uses it
<_death> Nilby: I love it too, but computation is its own field, and in this field modular arithmetic and floating point have advantages as well
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<Xach> j
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<jasom> Is there a macro for tracing all functions named by external symbols of a package?
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<pillton> What do you mean by tracing?
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<scymtym> jasom: (trace "PACKAGE-NAME-AS-STRING") does that
<jasom> scymtym: so it does, thanks!
<scymtym> sure. though i now realize that behavior is not in the standard
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<jasom> scymtym: well it's good enough to let me keep debugging
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