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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<feliocrat>
Good morning
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<beach>
feliocrat: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
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<feliocrat>
beach: yeah I'm new both lisp and IRC
<beach>
Great! Welcome!
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<edgar-rft>
I've heard lisp is much easier to learn than irc :-)
<beach>
Maybe you can't become an expert in either, unless you put in the required 10000 hours.
<feliocrat>
beach: Thanks
<aeth>
well, I've definitely put 10,000 hours into IRC :-)
<beach>
aeth: And it looks like you managed to become an expert in doing it.
<aeth>
thanks!
<beach>
Though, the implication arrow goes in one direction only.
<beach>
There are people putting in way more than that in software development without ever learning much at all.
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<aeth>
edgar-rft is the best expert in IRC, though
<feliocrat>
edgar-rft: Both looks like rabbit hole :D
<beach>
feliocrat: Have you found any good resources, like books and such?
<feliocrat>
What is the meaning of experting in IRC Is it like wrting bots etc.
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<feliocrat>
beach: Currently I am reading Practical common lisp. I am in pre midterm week so I'm not studying reasonable amount of time for lisp nowadays.
<beach>
That's a good start.
<feliocrat>
When It's finished I will read Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs ##lisp adviced I am really curious about what is the deal about it( In a good way)
<beach>
It's a good book, but it uses the Scheme language rather than Common Lisp.
<beach>
So you may get confused about the differences in evaluation rules.
<beach>
... and it's not a book about any particular programming language. It is rather a book about programming in general, in particular about abstractions.
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<feliocrat>
Yeah I think it is in Introduction to programming in MIT (not sure). I thought that It will give me the lisp enlightenment. I need to read a lot about programming, but one of my primary goal was lisp for reading sicp.
<beach>
It was the MIT introduction. Now they converted to Python I hear.
<beach>
Again, you need to be careful. If you learn Common Lisp and then read SICP, you might get confused because the languages are very different in many respects.
<moon-child>
meh, I don't think it's that big of a deal. There are minor differences, but don't think anything impossible to reconcile
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<beach>
moon-child: Maybe not if you are an experienced programmer with knowledge of several other languages and their differences. But if you are new to this stuff, it may indeed be confusing.
<ck_>
That might be true, but it still can be a hurdle at the beginning stages
<feliocrat>
In ##lisp pjb said every lisper needs to learn emacs-lisp(Everything happened because of this) common-lisp scheme It would be good fit. Now I am afraid from transition I will read Scheme vs CL before sicp. Or should I postpone it ?
<moon-child>
fair enough
<beach>
feliocrat: I don't think it is that important. Just be aware that there are differences and expect to be confused from time to time.
<feliocrat>
beach: I will thanks.
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<loke[m]>
Hello, I'm trying to connect to this channel via Matrix, so as to make it easier for me to stay online when I'm in the office.
<loke[m]>
Please let me know if it works well.
<moon-child>
loke[m]: sadly, it does
<pillton>
loke[m]: What is The Matrix?
<easye>
Take the Red Pill to find out...
<beach>
loke[m]: There are some issues. I am sure that people like Gnuxie[m] can tell you what they are.
<beach>
loke[m]: For example, occasionally, people utter things that don't show up in the IRC channel, even though they think they do.
<beach>
So you may experience unexpected absence of reactions to what you utter.
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<loke[m]>
What username am I seen as?
<moon-child>
loke[m]
<loke[m]>
Whatever you typed was transformed into a username reference. :-)
<moon-child>
`l o k e [ m ]'
<loke[m]>
Oh, an m at the end. Thanks.
<loke[m]>
I'll use this from work for now. There are some annoying filewall configurations making regular IRC a bit tricky. I'm running a Matrix server myself, so this should hopefully be reliable enough.
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<moon-child>
you could also run e.g. a znc server
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<loke[m]>
I could, but I already have this Matrix server set up :-)
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<easye>
loke[m]: #lispcafe might be a better resource for help with Matrix.
<easye>
(although most people in that channel also watch this one)
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<kreyren>
how can i execute `g++ --help` using quicklisp?
<kreyren>
without depenence on bash/sh shell ideally
<kreyren>
are there any projects that are using asdf to handle CXX?
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<loke[m]>
kreyrn: What is CXX?
<kreyren>
C++ programming lang
* kreyren
needs to compile his fork of paludis and decided that he ain't touching cmake nor meson with 20 feet stick
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<moon-child>
kreyren: I started working on a build system in cl bit ago. Still a bit half-baked, but can post code if you're curious or want a starting point
<moon-child>
build files aren't supposed to be as big as fancy.build in the example; I was using that as a testing ground and slowly migrating things out into the main source tree/stdlib
<kreyren>
so you are basically defining functions per fancy.build and then executing these?
<moon-child>
yes, but it also gets a 'standard library' from the build system. It also handles dependency inversion and parallelization (latter nyi)
<moon-child>
skimming gh issue: probably, yes. Cl is fast and high quality language (items 1 and 2). I don't know if there are any i18n libs for cl, but it certainly wouldn't be hard to make one (#3). Injection: can be done using :after/:before in CLOS
<kreyren>
ah i see O.o How did you designed it to handle complicated projects like https://github.com/Kreyren/CM-Paludis that require built libraries?
<kreyren>
if you care to brainstorm i was thinking about adapting the CMake approach and making build file per directory that would be executed O.o
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<moon-child>
Linking to prebuilt libraries: it can be handled by c-binary-buildable
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<moon-child>
or, rather, at the moment c-binary-buildable only knows how to handle c-source-buildables. But we can add another class, c-library-prebuilt (or whatever), and teach c-binary-buildable how to handle it
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<moon-child>
I don't think a buildfile per directory makes very much sense. See: nested makefiles. I think leveraging the existing cl package system and separating out files as needed is a better approach
<kreyren>
moon-child, these libraries have to be build though see https://github.com/Kreyren/CM-Paludis/blob/master/CMakeLists.txt#L20 which are 3 libs that are project-provided and 5 that are expected to be provided by system with option to be project-provided for tests in chroot
<moon-child>
sure, there should be no problem dealing with that. In this case, we can have another class for c-library-buildable; instantiate it and then make the c-library-prebuilt depend either on that or on the system library. In the latter case, no targets that are actually built will depend on the c-library-buildable, so it won't need to get built
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<kreyren>
moon-child, i see, how about static and dynamic libs? this project needs to be compiled for either on demand
<moon-child>
that can just be a switch on the c-library-buildable/prebuild
<kreyren>
i see, checking..
<kreyren>
moon-child, what about metadata? I want to rename the project based on something like variable PROJECT_NAME injecting into the code and similar scenarios
<moon-child>
(although, some extra effort may be required if you want to set rpath in the binary. You have to decide which libraries you want to set rpath for. But, no other build system handles this well so meh)
<kreyren>
i happy to do extra effort ^-^
<moon-child>
kreyren: by metadata you mean like template files?
<easye>
kreyren: For your use case, I think you ignore the advice from yesterday about not using cmake's abstractions at the peril of re-inventing a *lot* of logic.
<kreyren>
moon-child, no i meant like project name, version handling, codename, etc..
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<kreyren>
easye, peril of what o.o
<easye>
That cmake is complicated is not in doubt.
<kreyren>
over-complicated
<kreyren>
i don't mind complicated things in general
<easye>
The peril of basically needing to replicate a lot of cmake in CL.
<easye>
It's just a matter of implementation time.
<kreyren>
o.o
<easye>
I suppose if your feature set is small enough, because you understand the code, you will have an advantage. Otherwise you have a *lot* of things to abstract and implement.
<moon-child>
kreyren: I guess I would shell out to sed or perl for that. That could just be a custom buildable
<kreyren>
moon-child, true
<easye>
cmake is complicated because it does a lot of things that one needs to build portable C++ code.
<moon-child>
(or it could be integrated into core. But it would basically be a rebuilt-on-file-change from foo.h.in -> foo.h that executes sed 's/whatever/whatever/g' 's/whatever/whatever/g' < foo.h.in > foo.h)
<kreyren>
let me try to adapt that in my project and i will make issues for things that i don't understand (so that docs could be updated if needed) or issue tracking for implementation if that's fine with you moon-child ?
<kreyren>
easye, in which case clisp would be a much better choice ?
<moon-child>
kreyren: I don't recommend using it for any real-world projects unless you feel prepared to do a looooot of work essentially creating the build system. easye is right
<kreyren>
moon-child, i am propared to do loooot of work!
<kreyren>
especially if you will be maintaining it after ^-^
<kreyren>
bcs my workflow is to automate everything and then hire someone to maintain the unautomatible things or doing community management
<moon-child>
for sure!
<easye>
I don't understand the motivation to use clisp (except as a joke)
<moon-child>
can't promise proper development, but maintanence aye
<kreyren>
easye, what would you use then?
<moon-child>
sbcl, ccl
<moon-child>
franz or lispworks if you like paying money
<moon-child>
abcl if you need java libs
<moon-child>
sicl if you're a hipster (sorry beach ;)
<kreyren>
moon-child, i was thinking quicklisp so that it's implementation independent?
<moon-child>
quicklisp is a package repository
<easye>
Not that clisp isn't a fine ANSI implementation. It's recent release strategy or lack thereof prevents it from being a Tier 1 open implementation in my humble opinion.
<easye>
s/It's/Its/
<kreyren>
moon-child, that reimplements the common-lisp functions to be implementation independent no?
<phoe>
no
<moon-child>
ah, I think you mean uiuop
<kreyren>
o.o
<kreyren>
ah uiuop then!
<phoe>
quicklisp is the stuff that allows you to auto-download code from the Internet
<moon-child>
yeah, I use uiop. Tested under sbcl and ccl
<kreyren>
phoe, ah i see O.o makes sense
<phoe>
what you likely mean is portability libraries, and uiop is one of them
<easye>
uiop is shipped with ASDF.
<kreyren>
moon-child, Would you be fine in migrading that on https://git.dotya.ml ?
<easye>
ui
<moon-child>
easye: well, clisp also has relatively poor performance/debugging compared with the tier1 implementations. I don't think lack of a release strategy is necessarily a problem (though it can be)
<kreyren>
there is a DroneCI and hidden service provided which i prefer to use for automatization and privacy
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<easye>
moon-child: agreed. But it is surprising how widespread clisp is available from various package systems.
<phoe>
easye: thanks to its name.
<easye>
I think because it suggests that clisp stands for "Common Lisp".
<easye>
phoe: Yep.
<moon-child>
it's also nice for bootstrapping as it's written in c
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<phoe>
yes
<phoe>
and it has a few fun features that are missing from other implementations, such as a very nice ROOM and variable-precision floats
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<moon-child>
kreyren: they don't like my 2048-bit rsa key ;<
<kreyren>
i see O.o can you make the mentioned bug? i grab maintainer to take a look at it
<kreyren>
oke!
<kreyren>
gn ^-^
<moon-child>
I don't think it's a bug, just good taste
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<kreyren>
moon-child, o.o i would think it to be actionable for those who prefer shorter keys though but then i am a guy that hardens everything including his dog~
* easye
pities the dog.
<kreyren>
easye, why pity the dog wearing bullet-proof vest!
<kreyren>
well "bullet-resistant" at that..
<easye>
Ah, *that* kind of harden.
<kreyren>
and probably not even that bcs i suck with kevlar and i needed to make it comfy so that he woudn't overheat
<kreyren>
easye, ye basically like a turtle
<kreyren>
which i also have
* easye
feels even more sympathy for the dog in question.
<kreyren>
^-^
<kreyren>
aaaaaaa
<kreyren>
you shoudn't he's little terrorist requiring constant attention and spoiled to the point of unbelieve!
* easye
goes back to arming bears.
<kreyren>
lol
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