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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<pillton>
Good morning beach.
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<beach>
Wow, long time no see. What have you been up to?
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<pillton>
Yeah. It has been a long time. Kids and work have been keeping me pretty busy. I still manage to keep doing some CL. You have to stay sane somehow.
<beach>
I see, yes.
<pillton>
How are you?
<beach>
Very busy with SICL. I recently came up with a better way of doing bootstrapping, so I am implementing that now.
<pillton>
A better way? The last I remember is that you had come up with a good way to do that.
<beach>
I had a way, and it works, but it was messy, and it required me to adapt some production code, resulting in it being not as idiomatic as I would have wanted.
<moon-child>
ooh, what's the new way?
<pillton>
I look forward to the paper.
<beach>
moon-child: To the untrained eye, they look the same, and an explanation from me right now would make no sense to anybody but perhaps the few people who work directly on SICL.
<beach>
pillton: I still have no idea how to explain all this in an 8-page paper.
<pillton>
beach: You will figure it out. Clarity of presentation will emerge during implementation.
<beach>
I hope so, but it has been a while and I still see no way.
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<flip214>
beach: perhaps you should try to explain it to somebody - that might help clarify your thoughts. Do you have a puppet? Or you could tell me and perhaps I can ask a few good questions.?
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<beach>
That's a nice offer. Thanks.
<beach>
I think I can do it but not in 8 pages.
<beach>
Either way, I am going to wait until I am sure that this new technique works as I hope it will.
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<flip214>
Goodie!
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<iissaacc>
generic functions are such a cool way of doing OO
<iissaacc>
the more common lisp i do the more i enjoy it
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<beach>
Great!
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<beach>
So, apparently, when Alan Kay invented the term object-oriented programming, he meant that objects should communicate as if they were on different computers connected by a network. He (apparently again) does not like the way that the term has been used for the class-based programming style that most so-called object-oriented languages support.
<beach>
Therefore, maybe we should call our style "generic-function-based programming".
<no-defun-allowed>
Yeah, the big deal to Kay is messaging.
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<no-defun-allowed>
However, in his 1997 OOPSLA presentation he said The Art of the Meta-Object Protocol was the best book anyone's written in ten years (except that it was hard to understand if you didn't get Lisp, but it's a Lisp book...), but that was some time ago.
<beach>
Oh, Kay said that?
<beach>
Interesting!
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<beach>
It is not easy to understand even for Lispers. I had two attempts that I abandoned.
<no-defun-allowed>
While searching for that, the two analogies Kay likes came up rapidly: he likens objects to biological cells (you can't poke things into them), and small servers ("every object should have an IP address").
<beach>
Yes, he is trained as a biologist I think.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Huh, didn't know that before.
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<VincentVega>
Is it possibly to require/load a library/file thread-locally? It looks like one can have thread-local function definitions https://pastebin.com/WSCcaT5V so that's a start. Using something like https://pastebin.com/AJGi7Mve which uses load or require (with different packages in the cl-user namespace) fails though.
<VincentVega>
Why: I want to be able to have multiple threads each running its own graphical library (e.g. thread1: sdl, thread2: webgl). I have some code that defines drawing primitives over those libraries (e.g. draw-rectangle, draw-circle). Then there's the high-level (library-agnostic) code which uses those primitives to draw stuff. So if I manage to have
<VincentVega>
thread-local definitions for primitives, the high-level code never has to deal with the fact that there are multiple libraries (in the high-level code I want to literally say: (draw-rectangle rect) without ever mentioning the specific library).
<phoe>
thread-local function definitions?
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<phoe>
no, they are going to clash with one another
<VincentVega>
thread-local functions I mean
<phoe>
DEFUN defines functions in the global environment and these are not thread-local
<flip214>
VincentVega: you could create new packages and use them per-thread
<phoe>
^
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<jackdaniel>
phoe: clostrum is a protocol to have multiple global environments, but it is not adopted by any CL implementation
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<phoe>
jackdaniel: I'm aware of that and I assume that VincentVega uses an implementation with a single global environment
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<jackdaniel>
another way is to have i.e draw-rectangle be defined like this: (defun draw-rectangle (x1 y1 x2 y2) (funcall *draw-rectangle* x1 y1 x2 y2))
<jackdaniel>
and bind functions per-thread to *draw-rectangle* (in this examlpe)
<jackdaniel>
because dynamic bindings *are* (usually) thread local
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<VincentVega>
phoe: interesting, ok
<jackdaniel>
phoe: I'm aware of that, but clostrum is a direct approach to the very problam VincentVega describes, so it is worth mentioning, that it has been at least recognized
<phoe>
jackdaniel: OK, understood
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<jackdaniel>
and since it has been recognized and it is not implemented in any cl implementation, then there is no "other" standard direct approach
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<jackdaniel>
I think that the approach with functions bound dynamically per-thread sounds as the closest approximation
<VincentVega>
flip214: so if I define a new package, how do I load it in the thread? I tried require and that didn't pan out (I can upload some code if needed)
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<phoe>
you don't load packages per-thread, you don't even load packages whatsoever
<beach>
VincentVega: Typically (asdf:load-system <name-of-system>) [I am guessing you mean "system" rather than "package"]
<pve>
are threads necessary in achieving this abstraction?
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<phoe>
packages have nothing to do with threads
<VincentVega>
jackdaniel: that's a valid approach I guess, hmmm. i'll check out clostrum
<jackdaniel>
VincentVega: I'm not suggesting using clostrum
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<no-defun-allowed>
I don't think threads are necessary.
<jackdaniel>
as I've said, it is not supported by common lisp implementations as of today
<jackdaniel>
I'll paste a code in a minute that will illustrate a per-thread approach you arguably want
<VincentVega>
phoe: thanks I'll read it
<no-defun-allowed>
One could have a special variable *backend*, and then have (draw-rectangle ...) trampoline to (draw-rectangle-on-backend *backend ...)
<VincentVega>
jackdaniel: ok
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<no-defun-allowed>
Now one can change backend by re-binding (or changing the value of the current binding of) *backend*; so threads aren't really needed to achieve that.
<VincentVega>
phoe: well, before I read that, ok, I define a package, but I don't get how to "use it per thread" as suggested by flip214
<no-defun-allowed>
Then you would write methods for draw-rectangle-on-backend like (defmethod draw-rectangle-on-backend ((backend sdl-backend) ...) ...)
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<no-defun-allowed>
I think packages are also not quite right for this abstraction. You probably want to have a backend stored in some variable, and then dispatch on the backend type.
<flip214>
VincentVega: you'd need to use (funcall (find-symbol "function1" package) args...)
<VincentVega>
no-defun-allowed: I will be having threads anyway, so that's kind of a given, but I see the point with the global var, ok
<flip214>
TBH, libraries could use a good mechanism for per-thread GF dispatch - all that per-use configuration (encoding/decoding, eg. YAML, JSON, XML, ...)
<VincentVega>
flip214: oh i see
<no-defun-allowed>
pve asked if threads are necessary, and as you can just rebind dynamic variables, probably not.
<jackdaniel>
the first approach is closest to what you have described, the second approach is better (and is basically what no-defun-allowed described)
<beach>
Definitely a kludge compared to Clostrum. :)
<jackdaniel>
sure
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<jackdaniel>
VincentVega: all that said, having an explicit argument to functions like draw-rectangle would be arguably better
<VincentVega>
jackdaniel: great, thank you
<VincentVega>
jackdaniel: yeah, would probably be faster, but kind of ugly in the sense of verbosity and necessity
<flip214>
jackdaniel: OTOH, have all functions like DRAW-RECTANGLE call some hidden function which uses the special variable for dispatch..
<jackdaniel>
VincentVega: if you have "explicit" medium you draw on, you could store in that instance many interesting things
<flip214>
then the dispatch wouldn't even be visible "on the frontend"
<jackdaniel>
i.e a color
<jackdaniel>
(instead of mutating global state of the backend you still need to access regardless)
<jackdaniel>
not to mention things like line style etc
<VincentVega>
jackdaniel: yeah, that sounds nice
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<beach>
In fact, I think with the AST evaluator, Clostrum could be used in any implementation.
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<beach>
It is only a factor 3 or so slower than native code.
<jackdaniel>
(and you could have multiple mediums writing to the same "display server" with different options)
<VincentVega>
anyone has a link for clostrum? pretty ungooglable
<jackdaniel>
but I can't recommend you enough contributing to McCLIM, where all these things has been thought through - the only requiring work is implementation
<jackdaniel>
but as I said, it is not natively incorporated in any other implementation than sicl - you can load sicl on sbcl and go through that, however I'm not sure if that's what you really want
<jackdaniel>
(it may be incorporated in the future of course)
<jackdaniel>
s/only requiring/only thing that requires/
<beach>
But maybe I should prepare a demo for the online Lisp meeting, showing how this can be done.
<phoe>
beach: as always, videos welcome~
<beach>
Sure.
<VincentVega>
jackdaniel: oh, thanks for the link and the explanations.
<VincentVega>
jackdaniel: Yeah, well mcclim is kind of complex and seems abondoned. I was considering it at some point.
<jackdaniel>
abandoned?
* jackdaniel
is shocked
<VincentVega>
not actively developed?
<aeth>
I think it's un-abandoned now?
<beach>
VincentVega: Watch out what you are saying.
<aeth>
You might be looking at the wrong repo
<VincentVega>
wasn't gonna hurt anyones feelings
<jackdaniel>
no, it's not that
<VincentVega>
is it being developed these days then?
<jackdaniel>
it is just we have a few contributors and it is developed quite actively
<beach>
VincentVega: Well, jackdaniel is the main maintainer, and there is lots of good activity.
<jackdaniel>
you did not customize text editor look&feel ,-) looks nice
<scymtym>
yeah, the screenshot is actually outdated in other ways as well, but you know how it goes with screenshots
* jackdaniel
was sneakily taking a jab at drei customization capabilities
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<pve>
I, for one, dig the motif look
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<flip214>
is there a YAML output library with indented output for CL?
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<flip214>
cl-yaml writes a single line only
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<pxpxp>
I'd like to assign a new local variable inside a conditional clause of a loop, like using a :for inside an :if. Minimal example: (loop :for i :upto 10 :when (evenp i) << Here I want to say e.g. j = (* 2 i) >> :do (print j))
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<pxpxp>
Let's say my equivalent of computing (* 2 i) is a costly operation so I don't want to do it every time
<phoe>
(loop with j = nil ...)
<phoe>
then use J as appropriate in code
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<pxpxp>
thanks
<flip214>
pxpxp: :when (evenp i) (let ((j (* 2 i))) ... ) if you only need j in there
<flip214>
sorry, :when (evenp i) :do (let...)
<phoe>
or this
<pxpxp>
indeed!
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<linuxnoob>
lisp is awful
<eta>
rude
linuxnoob was banned on #lisp by phoe [*!*linuxnoob@*.blix.com]
linuxnoob was kicked from #lisp by phoe [linuxnoob]
<phoe>
please carry on
<Robdgreat>
that wasn't even skillful trolling
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<Robdgreat>
thanks phoe
<phoe>
I mean, yeah
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<phoe>
if you come here to waste everyone's time, at least put some effort of your own into it
<phoe>
or, even better
<phoe>
don't come
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<Robdgreat>
I like some channel or other with something like "if you're going to troll, it better be hilarious"
<Robdgreat>
in the topic
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<flip214>
phoe: can you move people over to another channel, #lisp-trolls or so? perhaps a few might be educated
<phoe>
not worth it
<flip214>
and if not, it might be a bit of entertainment
<phoe>
google's c.l.l is already replete with such entertainment
<phoe>
;; unless they started somehow moderating it, which would be both unusual and welcome
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