<beach>
russell--: Try for instance (loop for y in '(1 2 ... 20) for x = '(a b c d e f g h) then (if (zerop (mod y 3)) (cdr x) x) collect (cons (car x) y))
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<ldbeth>
good afternoon
<beach>
Hello ldbeth.
<decentyousername>
I was about to ask the following question: "I'm trying to write a constructor for an object with quite a few slots. Currently I'm specifying all slots manualle in the parameter list, but I had that's annoying during prototyping, because I might add or remove slots. So I had the ingenious idea of using &rest and using (apply #'make-instance 'class args) to create the object. But if the user doesn't specify a value for a slot, I w
<decentyousername>
like to use a default argument." but then I realized I should probably just put the default value for a paramater inside a :default-initargs form.
<decentyousername>
and good morning ldbeth
<decentyousername>
and beach
<phoe>
good morning
<decentyousername>
and phoe
<beach>
decentyousername: That or in an :INITFORM depending on your situation.
<beach>
Hey phoe.
<ldbeth>
I see some people write their own utils to make define classes as easy as define structs
<beach>
ldbeth: Yes, and also very wrong most of the time then.
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<decentyousername>
beach: I thought one should use :default-initargs, because then #'post-initialize has he ability to access the arguments.
<beach>
It must be highly unusual to want to have or not have initforms, initargs, readers, and writers exactly the same way for every slot in class.
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<beach>
decentyousername: Like I said, depending on your situation.
<decentyousername>
the only time I use :initform is for signaling an error.
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<decentyousername>
It's nice how just formulating the question makes you sometimes find the answer. I was so focused on the constructor that I forgot that I could use the class definition to specify default args.
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<villanella>
is it a good way to start learning common lisp if I'd like to get into elisp programming?
<beach>
Sure, you can do that.
<beach>
They are similar in many respects.
<beach>
And sometimes I think Emacs Lisp is moving closer to Common Lisp.
<villanella>
are the two languages somewhat close similar to how c and c++ are?
<aeth>
Yes.
<beach>
Hard to measure closeness that way, but I would say much closer than that.
<aeth>
Emacs Lisp is basically an archaic Lisp, which based its design on the languages (Maclisp and Interlisp?) that Common Lisp was designed to replace.
<villanella>
thanks both of you, it is nice to have a bit of guidance regarding this
<beach>
Good luck!
<beach>
Though I can't understand why 1. you would want Emacs Lisp to be your ultimate goal, and 2. If it is, why you would not learn it directly instead.
<villanella>
yes I would like to be able to customize my Emacs configuration and eventually start building packages of my own. I am not learning it directly as I found a really interesting common lisp book which I particularly enjoy.
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<dim>
when learning a new programming language a huge part of the task is to do with learning APIs, either standard/core ones and/or also main librairies ; in that respect learning Emacs Lisp is totally different than learning Common Lisp
<phoe>
be wary of double evaluation when doing this though
<jmercouris>
don't worry, I am not going to do that :-D
<Bike>
usually that kind of thing is done with initialize-instance :after methods yeah.
<Bike>
stuff gets a little hairy when you factor in reinitialization, class changes, that kind of thing
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<phoe>
I had to deal with this, yes - that's where all the different GFs come into place: initialize-instance, reinitialize-instance, shared-initialize, update-instance-for-*-class
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<jmercouris>
I see, thanks for the feedback everyone
<Bike>
imo it feels a little messy since you're kind of writing (setf (slot ...) parameter), rather than any kind of ahead of time specification, until you look at how CLOS works internally and see that's what it does even without custom methods
<devon>
Hi all. In (let ((x (#+style AND #-style WHEN p v))) ...) ; Which would you write and why?
<phoe>
in this case, AND
<phoe>
WHEN is usually for side effects
<beach>
devon: According to Norvig and PITMAN, WHEN is to be used only in a context where the value is not used.
<Bike>
i'd write when, because i am afflicted by an evil heart
<beach>
devon: So that suggests AND. However, if v is not a Boolean, then the same people advise against AND.
<Bike>
oh. yeah, no, that's why i'd use when generally
<phoe>
if you want to bind X to NIL, then you should either write it explicitly, (if p v nil), or use AND since that's a logical operation on booleans but then V is assumed to be a generalized boolean value, so either NIL or anything non-NIL
<beach>
devon: So if v is not a Boolean, it should be (IF p v NIL).
<phoe>
^
<beach>
devon: Now, if p is not a Boolean either, the advice is yet different.
<beach>
devon: (IF (NULL p) NIL v)
<beach>
All according to Norvig and Pitman. Not me.
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<beach>
So no point in disagreeing with me. Disagree with the highly experienced people Norvig and Pitman instead.
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<devon>
Grrr. Woof, woof!
<beach>
devon: Does that make sense to you?
<phoe>
devon: you're barking up the wrong cons tree
<devon>
LOL, yes. I know KMP, haven't met Norvig.
<beach>
Check out page 13 of the LUV slides by those two.
<beach>
I can't pretend having even a fraction of their experience, so the relatively tiny programs I have written (compared to theirs) are not enough for me to disagree with them.
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<beach>
Indeed.
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<devon>
I'd prefer (if (not (numberp x)) nil (cos x)) to what's on the slide.
<_death>
I don't think these are hard and fast rules.. for example, PAIP doesn't always follow them
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<beach>
I am not going to debate this issue any further.
<devon>
I've often seen WHEN return a value. Thanks, y'all've been helpful.
<beach>
Pleasure!
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<Xach>
i have so many function bodies that start off with (when ...) and they are meant to return NIL if the precondition fails, something useful otherwise. i only learned about the WHEN side-effect style recently.
<Xach>
I don't think it would look nearly as nice to do (and ... (progn ...))
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<beach>
I don't think anybody suggested that.
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<beach>
Also, often NIL is a special case, as in the base case of a recursion or something similar. It is good style to handle the base case first, so that the person reading the code does not have to keep that case fresh in memory while reading the rest of the code.
<beach>
Therefore, code like that often turns into (IF <special-case> NIL ...) where ... may have to contain a PROGN.
<beach>
For example, suppose we define a simple version of MAPCAR. It is not good style to write (defun mapcar (function list) (when list (cons (funcall function) (mapcar function (rest list))))), for more than the reason of using LIST as a Boolean.
<beach>
Er, forgot (first list), you get the idea.
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<beach>
Instead, we handle the special case first, as in (defun mapcar (function list) (if (null list) '() (cons (funcall function (first list)) (mapcar function (rest list)))))
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<beach>
When a mathematician writes a proof by induction, the base case is always handled first, for the same reason.
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<Xach>
beach: norvig and pitman and clhs seem to suggest it?
<Xach>
beach: how else to interpret "when must be used only for side effect"?
<beach>
I'm lost. What are they suggesting?
<Xach>
beach: don't use WHEN for a return value
<beach>
I agree. What made you think otherwise?
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<beach>
It looked to me like you were suggesting that your function bodies returned the NIL (default value of WHEN) as a useful value.
<beach>
But now, it seems you are agreeing with Norvig and Pitman.
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<Xach>
beach: i am describing a practice that i think is discouraged by norvig and pitman and described one alternative. when you wrote "i don't think anybody is suggesting that" i interpreted it to mean "nobody is suggesting you do not use WHEN for a return value"
<beach>
I am sorry if I misunderstood.
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<beach>
I meant, nobody is suggesting using AND in this situation.
<beach>
Because the first argument of AND would then not be a Boolean.
<_death>
the luv also has pages 4 and 7... in PAIP for example there are functions whose body is (when ... (get ...)) .. Pitman uses (or (gethash ...) (setf (gethash ...) ...)) idiom in his conditions code, etc.
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<beach>
_death: Do you take that as an indication to ignore their advice on page 13?
<beach>
That seems like the wrong thing to do if so.
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<Xach>
Hmm, I am trying to find the passage in CLHS on WHEN/UNLESS that I thought I remembered, and can't find it at the moment. But I thought it specifically mentioned using AND for value, WHEN for side-effect.
<_death>
beach: no.. it's a good rule in general
<Xach>
Perhaps it was just a crazy dream.
<beach>
Xach: I have not seen anything like that, especially for general values, i.e. not only Booleans.
<Xach>
It stuck firmly (but possibly incorrectly) in my mind because I learned about it so recently.
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<sjl_>
Oh, someone already mentioned that. I guess not. Sorry.
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<sjl_>
There's something like that in CLtL2:
<sjl_>
> As a matter of style, when is normally used to conditionally produce some side effects, and the value of the when form is normally not used. If the value is relevant, then it may be stylistically more appropriate to use and or if.
<sjl_>
but I guess it didn't make it into the spec
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<Xach>
I swear I saw it in a speclike place.
* Xach
checks cltl2
<Xach>
Aha
<Xach>
> As a matter of style, when is normally used to conditionally produce some side effects, and the value of the when form is normally not used. If the value is relevant, then it may be stylistically more appropriate to use and or if.
<Xach>
That's in 7.6
<Xach>
(of cltl2)
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<bostongeek36>
i am trying to install sbcl 2.10 from source but i am getting an error saying sh is not a valid command
<bostongeek36>
ive installed both msys and cygwin
<bostongeek36>
so im not sure what the issue is
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<phoe>
be sure that you are running from a msys terminal; sh should be defined there and available on the PATH
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<bostongeek36>
ah so you cant do it from cmd
<bostongeek36>
oh i should of said this is on windows
<phoe>
I guessed as much; there is no modern widespread OS that does not have sh defined by default
<bostongeek36>
yeah :P
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<bostongeek36>
how do i tell make.sh where sbcl is installed it can't find it
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<bostongeek36>
@phoe
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<phoe>
I need to run to sleep now
<phoe>
maybe someone else will be able to help
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<phoe>
in the worst case, try #sbcl
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igemnace has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
amb007 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]