<sjl>
love spending 20 minutes digging through SBCL's MOP source code to figure out why it's signaling an error only to realize I did (defmethod update-dependent ...) instead of (defmethod c2mop:update-dependent ...)
<sjl>
Silent naked defmethods are just the worst.
<phoe>
sjl: complain at #sbcl that the "implicitly creating a function" warning should get reinstated
<pfdietz>
"Interlisp is a very large software system [...] Interlisp-D has on the order of 17,000 lines of Lisp code, 6,000 lines of Bcpl, and 4,000 lines of microcode."
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<pfdietz>
(checks sbcl source) 555K lines of lisp code.
<pfdietz>
And 53K lines of C.
<aeth>
If you replace all ;-style comments with #||#-style comments, then you could get any Lisp program down to 1 line
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<phantomics>
Hey, a question about arrays: is there any way to create a "representation" of an array with a different element type?
<phantomics>
For example, say I have an 8-element array of type unsigned-byte 8
<phantomics>
And I want to access the same memory space as a 64-element vector of bits
<phantomics>
I can't use array displacement for this, because (make-array) forbids you to use the :displace-to option with an array of a different type
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<phantomics>
Is there any other option?
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<aeth>
Actually doing it? You can abuse FFI...
<aeth>
e.g. (format t "#x~16,'0X~%" (static-vectors:with-static-vector (a 16 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :initial-element #x12) (cffi:mem-ref (static-vectors:static-vector-pointer a) :uint64 0)))
<aeth>
I'm guessing that you could probably be clever with static-vectors-style hacking to avoid the direct use of CFFI and just create two different arrays that appear to be Lisp native, just with different types and located at the same location.
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<aeth>
But, in general, I think people just make the array itself be octets and then merge them together if necessary.
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<aeth>
Your implementation (e.g. SBCL) might let you pretend that CL is C if (safety 0). Whatever you do, DO NOT do this one. It's unportable and breaks the type system. (defun foo (a) (declare (optimize (safety 0)) (type (simple-array (unsigned-byte 64) (*)) a)) (aref a 0)) (defun bar () (foo (make-array 32 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :initial-element #x12))) (format t "#x~16,'0X~%" (bar))
<aeth>
If the type tags are variably sized, it might not work, either.
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<sjl>
I feel like I probably still screwed this up, but I can't think any more about this tonight.
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<jrm>
Hi. I'm working on an OS package update to alexandria 1.2. I tested by loading stumpwm. After the update an error is reported: Lock on package ALEXANDRIA violated when defining ALEXANDRIA:WITH-GENSYMS as a macro while in package STUMPWM.
<jrm>
We currently have a very old version of alexandria before the alexandria-1 and alexandria-2 sub directories were created. Does something special need to be done to handle the two -1 and -2 implementations?
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<shka_>
hi
<beach>
Hello shka_.
<shka_>
does sbcl hash-table created with 'equalp will handle other hashtables as keys?
<shka_>
in sublinear fashion
<lonjil>
I imagine that it would handle other hashtables as 'eq keys no matter what, since they are objects with identity.
<phoe>
^
<shka_>
yeah, but i need equalp
<phoe>
oh wait, equalp descends
<shka_>
well, yes?
<jackdaniel>
see equalp spec
<jackdaniel>
it has well specified behavior for hash-tables
<phoe>
no idea if that is going to be sublinear though
<shka_>
ok
<shka_>
yeah, i know that it should work, i just wonder about the performance
<shka_>
eh, actually i can use ordered list
<shka_>
it will work nicely with 'equal
* shka_
will figure out equalp case some other time
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<lonjil>
Wow, I had no idea about equalp descending hash tables.
<pfdietz>
Want an abstraction combining equality, canonicalization, and hashing, with all the appropriate axioms relating those. These should come packaged together.
<shka_>
it does, i just need to know if sbcl hash-table 'equalp and other hash-tables as keys is smart enough to calculate hash in a sensible way
<shka_>
but whatever, i can do this differently
<phoe>
you still need to traverse the whole hashtable to compute the hash
<nij>
Sometimes you just have to deal with other languages. How difficult and practical is it to write a lisp version of that language?
<phoe>
nij: what do you mean, lisp version of what language
<nij>
The specific example in my mind is Hy, which claims to blend python and lisp. The problem is that the language I'm using (SageMath) is close to but not the same as python. In fact, sagemath's codes got pre-processed into python code. If I'm not mistaken, this is enough to keep Hy away from being effective with sagemath. I'm thinking of doing similar things to sagemath, but am not sure how long it's going to take me.
<shka_>
phoe: yes, but ideal you need to do this ONCE
<phoe>
oh, you want to write a lisp dialect in a language of your choosing?
<shka_>
or rather: twice
<phoe>
shka_: yes... for each GETHASH and for each SETF GETHASH
<shka_>
and not n times
<nij>
phoe: Yeah. So effectively i want to work with that language, but in lisp syntax.
<shka_>
phoe: well, you also need to check for collisions if the occur
<nij>
I imagine this won't be hard. But it will take some time..
<shka_>
but still better then linear scan of the whole range
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<phoe>
nij: that's more of a ##lisp topic, but, implement a Lisp interpreter in any language using e.g. MAL (Make-A-Lisp) - that should give you an idea of how to do a similar thing in any programming language
<nij>
OH! I wasn't aware of ##lisp. Sorry.. I will migrate my question there.
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<_death>
I think imcl got a compile error with recent ecl.. didn't look into it
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<_death>
or actually it was a runtime error on startup
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
jackdaniel: is darwin/arm64 supported?
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<pfdietz>
I sent in a bug report on the previous release yesterday. Issues at the gitlab page... right place to report?
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<jackdaniel>
pfdietz: yes, thank you
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<jackdaniel>
I saw it
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<jackdaniel>
(and confirmed)
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<jackdaniel>
fiddlerwoaroof: probably it is a matter of adding toolchain parts to the config -- as of now it does not build there
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<jackdaniel>
you know, triplet arch platform abi
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<slyrus_>
so today's the day I try to dig through the various data-frame-ish libraries in common lisp and see what's what. I've got vellum, teddy, and polyclot on my list. Any others I should be considering?
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<_death>
there was also rho
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<slyrus_>
rho gets points off for having neither documentation nor tests that can be easily grokked to infer the API.
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<_death>
didn't try it, but looks like it has unittests.lisp and example.lisp.. and there are some docstrings and comments..
<pfdietz>
What I remember about APL was that IBM had a special ball for the Selectric typewriter/terminal for it.
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<phantomics>
And the Bloxl device is shown starting around the 1:25:00 mark
<slyrus_>
Uh oh. That's a long video! Going to have to set aside some time to watch it!
<phantomics>
Yeah, paradoxically back in the teletype days it was easier to use an alternate character set than later
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<phantomics>
Yeah, if you just want to see the device jump to 1:25:00 and watch for a few minutes
<phantomics>
It's a giant transparent pixel display
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<phantomics>
The APL developers released another language called J in the 90s because before Unicode, it was a huge pain to use the APL character set
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<slyrus_>
shka_: I'm can make a table with columns but always seem to end up with 0 rows.
<shka_>
slyrus_: yup, that's how it is supposed to work, actually
<shka_>
make-table will always return table with 0 rows
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<shka_>
slyrus_: however, you can insert data into table without resizing
<slyrus_>
yeah, but I'm trying to use transform and body to add rows a la the example but failing
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<shka_>
right
<shka_>
did you pass :end to the transform?
<slyrus_>
:end nil
<phantomics>
slyrus_: Also, I recall I made a PR to opticl to add the ability to save PNGs with grayscale + transparency, is it possible you could merge it? https://github.com/slyrus/opticl/pull/33
<shka_>
oh
<shka_>
it should work
<shka_>
care to share code snipped?
<shka_>
*snippet?
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<slyrus_>
Ah, I got it. I can't shadow my (vellum:body (...) ...) vars with a destructuring-bind, so I have to use another variable name.
<shka_>
right
<shka_>
i probably should put this into readme
<shka_>
it would never occur to me to do something like this, that's why this library is probably ridden with bugs
<slyrus_>
No, this is just a toy file. I want to be able to parse lots of different kinds of files quickly.
<shka_>
ok, got it
<shka_>
i would like to support such use case as good as i possibly can
<slyrus_>
The prohibition on using existing symbols (e.g. time) is kind of annoying.
<slyrus_>
And it's not clear to me the benefit of these being special variables is
<slyrus_>
"what the benefit"
<shka_>
well, maybe i can show you example?
<shka_>
eh, it is already late actually...
<slyrus_>
Sure, and I'll show you the body* macro I just wrote that doesn't declare the vars as special and allows me to use existing keywords like "time" :)
<shka_>
slyrus_: anyway, it is admittedly, very narrow use case
<slyrus_>
What's the narrow use case? Needing these to be special or the name collision?
<shka_>
needing specials
<shka_>
name collisions happen
<shka_>
as you noticed
<slyrus_>
Ah, Ok. So that suggests a variant of body that declares them special.
<slyrus_>
and body itself shouldn't :)
<shka_>
hm, that is actually a very good point
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<shka_>
furthermore, there is, actually special variable *current-row* so that becomes even less in favor of keeping them special
<slyrus_>
this may seem like a minor issue, but one of my major annoyances with R is the namespace/environment stuff.
<shka_>
i mean, it is possible to get into data one way or another
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<shka_>
slyrus_: it is late, being more explicit would aid me to understand you ;-)
<shka_>
what aspect of that annoys you to be specific?
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<shka_>
slyrus_: would you mind if i would play fast and loose and eliminate special declarations in body right now? you convinced me
<slyrus_>
sounds great!
<shka_>
i will add separate macro, called BODYV
<slyrus_>
as for what annoys me, the whole NAMESPACE file thing being mixed up with R packages and all that is just a mess compared to defpackage/in-package
<shka_>
because it is a little bit like progv
<shka_>
oh, got ya
<shka_>
nah, R as a programming language is really not that good, it is excels in it's domain though
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I sort of think body* would be nicer
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<slyrus_>
I've always that lisp should have a destructuring-setq to match multiple-value-setq, but, alas, I have to use values-list...
<shka_>
i want to cross check one aspect of the body macro with you
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<shka_>
namely, it's dirty little secret
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<shka_>
it is closure constructed by macroexpansion of BODY is NOT thread safe
<fiddlerwoaroof>
nvm, I misunderstood what you were saying
<slyrus_>
shka_: why not?
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<shka_>
long story or short story?
<slyrus_>
long
<shka_>
short story is: questionable optimization techniques
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<slyrus_>
MORE PESSIMIZATION!
<shka_>
long story is that those vars
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<shka_>
are actually established in let over lambda, not let inside lambda
<shka_>
and yes, i measured, it makes the difference
<shka_>
and at the time i convinced myself that this is not a big deal
<shka_>
though looking at this now
<shka_>
i wonder WTF
<shka_>
because it should make exactly zero difference
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<slyrus_>
I'd argue for thread safety/correctness over performance at this point, but it would be interesting know why it makes a difference
<shka_>
i need to double check this again, because after all this time, i just can't believe in my own conclusions
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<shka_>
perhaps i was sleep deprived at the time
<shka_>
slyrus_: anyway, thanks for your input, i really appreciate it
<slyrus_>
thank you for making vellum! It would be great if we could get some critical mass behind it (or one of the other data-frame-ish libraries -- I'm not 100% sold yet :) )!
<shka_>
the state of the library is probably not what you hoped for, it is work in progress, and i want to make it right
<slyrus_>
I'm OK with W.I.P. as long as it's being worked on!
<shka_>
yeah, i still work on it, though i need to split attention between this and statistical-learning
<shka_>
because i need both
<shka_>
anyway, that body macro can wait, i would rather take shower and go to bed now
<shka_>
if anything pops up (which is likely), please contact me
<slyrus_>
ok, thanks!
<shka_>
preferable on the github, i don't check logs on the #lisp
<shka_>
good night all
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<slyrus_>
good night! thanks again. Looking forward to continuing the discussion!
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<slyrus_>
Another thing R gets wrong, IMO, is the whole parse/subst/quasiquote/dplyr evaluation model/!! and !!! rats nest. I much prefer lisp's macro system. But the ability to use unquoted symbols makes for simple-looking code in many cases.
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<slyrus_>
For something like vellum it would be nice to have solid "low level" semantics and then possibly some sort of higher-level set of functions/macros like vellum:body, etc...
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<shka_>
slyrus_: that was my plan actually, not sure if i managed to pull it off but it seems that it kinda works for me
<shka_>
ok, really AFK now :D
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