<jackdaniel>
how about making minion greet everyone entering the channel with "good morning"? and if that person answers, add some meaningful quote, like a fortune file
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<jmercouris>
edgar-rft: it can be if you want it to be
<edgar-rft>
Let's all praise the gods of Lisp :-)
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<edgar-rft>
One day I will rewrite the ANSI spec in Enoch style.
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<nij>
Indeed it's not in ql. Found that under /lisp. Sure.
<nij>
Next "cesarum graph" compilation fails without detailed info: https://bpa.st/YP6KE
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<phoe>
check the REPL for errors.
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<nij>
nvm i'll come back again when i'm more advanced 😂😂😂
<nij>
at least i've progressed more comparing to a month ago..
<beach>
The debugging situation for free Common Lisp implementations and tools is not that great.
<beach>
But we are working on making it better.
<phoe>
it's not about implementations
<phoe>
it's about ASDF not showing the real error(s) and just going "file failed to compile but I won't tell you why"
<beach>
That's the "tools" part.
<phoe>
are we working on having ASDF show more information?
<beach>
Not directly no. I am sorry of I gave that impression.
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<beach>
s/of/if/
<phoe>
I guess maybe we could though
<beach>
That said, it would be a good project for improving ASDF.
<phoe>
yes
<beach>
Yes. :)
<nij>
nah one thing is definitely that i'm still newb
<nij>
i cannot understand the backtrace
<phoe>
the backtrace tells you nothing
<phoe>
not in this case
<jackdaniel>
asdf is being continously improved; maybe such suggestion should be made to rpgoldman?
<phoe>
check the REPL for the real errors.
<nij>
but yeah thanks to you folks i've definitely improved
<phoe>
jackdaniel: yes, that sounds good
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<beach>
I think it was lukego who said recently that the situation is much better now than a decade ago.
<beach>
Something like "things just work now".
<_death>
nij: at the point this error happens, you can try to compile-file the graph.lisp file yourself
<jackdaniel>
depends on the things I suppose
<beach>
I guess so, yes.
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<nij>
_death: I do it again and the error changed
<nij>
dunno why..
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<nij>
and i dunno what "compiling" here really means
<_death>
nij: I have a small patch to informatimago whose commit message is "made to compile and load", though I don't know if it's related to your issue
<nij>
when I (ql:quickload :something-great), does it got compiled only into the running repl? or the compiled file is put somewhere?
<jackdaniel>
it is cached in ~/.cache/common-lisp/
<jackdaniel>
at least on linux
<jackdaniel>
and if up-to-date fasl is found, then it is not compiled anew
<jackdaniel>
afaik it does compare modification dates of the source file to determine whether file needs compiling (and a dependency graph)
<jackdaniel>
modification date is not so great way of doing this, because of how reader works, i.e #+my-brilliant-feature
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<_death>
nij: with that patch, (ql:quickload "com.informatimago") is successful here
<beach>
jackdaniel: Never thought about that. That's a very good point.
<jackdaniel>
thanks
<Xach>
this is a real problem in hunchentoot, which uses *features* to control SSL support
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<nij>
_death: oh indeed @_@ .com.informatimago is compiled, successfully.
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<jackdaniel>
"feature conditionals consider harmful for anything that is not intrinsic to the common lisp implementation" - anyone inspired - I waive rights to the article title :-)
<jackdaniel>
considered*
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<jackdaniel>
and "articles 'considered harmful' considered harmful"
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<nij>
now .com.informatimago works.. i'm trying .com.informatimago.command again
<phoe>
see how the REPL has the real compiler error
<jackdaniel>
beach: I've read it a few years back, but I don't remember much of it
<nij>
OH
<nij>
phoe i see
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<lukego>
beach: yeah the CL ecosystem is in amazing shape these days. I've actually been writing Lisp code all week without once pausing to deal with any bug or rough edge in any tool or dependency.
<phoe>
this is a place where could the condition report could possibly be improved.
<phoe>
I assume that it could hijack *error-output* while compiling stuff, and use this information inside the error report mayhaps?
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<beach>
lukego: I guess it is less spectacular when it happens gradually over several years.
<lukego>
aside: I'm experimenting with dumping Lisp application data structures into Blender for visualization at the moment. it's pretty fun. https://twitter.com/lukego/status/1355153534275231747. maybe headed towards having a two-way bridge where Blender can request more data from Lisp. Or maybe the novelty will wear off.
* lukego
remembers danb's classic rant on this subject...
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<lukego>
that basically we should all be in awe every moment that we're able to run Lisp on an x86/ARM instead of a refurbish DEC Alpha :)
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<beach>
phoe: Instead of that message in the REPL, there could have been a window with the source code and some colored arrow or something like that, pointing to the error.
<jackdaniel>
I have a weak recollection of asdf-slime integration which did exactly that (as when you call compile-file)
<_death>
when you C-c C-k you get red underlines.. there is also a slime-compilation window with the errors
<jackdaniel>
but it may be a fake recollection :)
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<phoe>
beach: _death: hmmm
<phoe>
should it be possible to merge these two approaches?
<phoe>
when you get an ASDF compilation error while swank is hooked up, the buffer in question opens and the underlines appear
<beach>
_death: Yes, that's already better.
<phoe>
I'd totally like that
<Xach>
lukego: now it is very popular to emulate the dead hardware
<lukego>
yeah I guess in hindsight waiting a couple of decades until emulating a Symbolics would become performant might have been a lower effort strategy for lisp
<nij>
Tried to load that into my SLY, it complains that the function version isn't defined.
<nij>
Problem is.. I'm using sbcl, and not familiar with ccl.
<_death>
phoe: yes.. my first thought when looking at nij's compilation error was that asdf's compile-file-error condition should include a list of conditions it has encountered, but I've not thought about it much
<nij>
By default, pjb uses ccl (at least written in Makefile).
<phoe>
_death: this does sound like a very good idea though
<phoe>
more or less what I was thinking of; it can then report their reports and locations or something
<beach>
lukego: I am afraid an environment based on Symbolics would be very vulnerable to attacks from the net. That wasn't much of an issue at the time.
<phoe>
or leave that to be inspected
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<nij>
What does this mean? -- #-clisp (do-A) "\n" #+clisp (do-B)
<_death>
even if it's not on purpose btw, pjb's code should be fixed so that the symbols used are qualified with the right package
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<Josh_2>
Hi, is there a library around that implements the Megolm v1 ratchet?
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<_death>
nij: anyway, if you want to work around this, just delete the #+clisp code
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<theothornhill>
What's the general consensus regarding fukamachiware vs edweitzware? Dexador vs drakma, Woo vs Hunchentoot etc. Is one of them regarded as "better"?
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<Josh_2>
I mix and match
<jackdaniel>
theothornhill: e.weitz wrote very clean code with documentation, e.fukamachi usually focused on scratching his own itch (and that is perfectly fine)
<Josh_2>
I use dex, and hunchentoot
<Josh_2>
I'm not really a fan of ningle of ningle, although in a high performance situation the fact it works on Woo is good as Woo is pretty darn fast
<theothornhill>
Yeah, I've noticed fukamachiware is more controversial
<Josh_2>
The documentation on fukamachiware is normally quite lacking
<theothornhill>
Yeah, I've seen that
<Josh_2>
that is not the case for edweitzware which is fantastically documented
<theothornhill>
Also he seems into Zappa
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<Josh_2>
Whats that?
<theothornhill>
Frank Zappa
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<jackdaniel>
jazz performer
<Josh_2>
Oh right
<theothornhill>
Yeah, his documentation is riddled with nods to his works :P
<Josh_2>
Oh thats cool
<nij>
_death: oh yes indeed. :) That brought me to the next step. Thank you!
<beach>
Josh_2: One of the greatest 20th century composers.
<theothornhill>
Absolutely
<theothornhill>
You have a nice rabbit hole now, Josh_2
<theothornhill>
But is there reason to be worried about fukamachiware?
<jackdaniel>
theothornhill: it is usually fine with some rough edges
<theothornhill>
Other than lacking documentation? I mean, that _can_ be fixed
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<jackdaniel>
but when you need to extend it or fix it yourself, then you may get frustrated
<jackdaniel>
because there is quite a few unusual implementation choices (and hacks), plus undocumented dependencies
<jackdaniel>
(i.e to add something to clack, you need to grok lack abstractions)
<jackdaniel>
sometimes you encounter a memory leak that can't be easily fixed, because the function only pushed to closed over variable
<jackdaniel>
stuff like that
<jackdaniel>
(that is - hard to fix at runtime without compromising the state)
<Josh_2>
I looked at the Ningle source code and couldn't understand a bit of it
<theothornhill>
Hehe - I've heard that other places as well
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<theothornhill>
Also, what is the canonical json parsing library?
<jackdaniel>
I've heard that cl-json was the fastest (but it assumes correct input)
<jackdaniel>
yason is hard to use, but it has a compelling abstraction
<jackdaniel>
(hard to use for me that is)
<_death>
I use dexador and hunchentoot as well.. unfortunately dexador picked drakma's nasty habit of returning the response as a bunch of values instead of a response object
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<aeth>
theothornhill: there isn't a canonical json parsing library.
<easye>
_death: eh, I find that the styles of multiple values isn't bad. At least dexdor tries to return a reference to text as the first value. I still have to use FLEXI-STREAMS:MUMBLE-AS-OCTETS with drakma
<theothornhill>
jackdaniel: yason is the one I've used until now, I actually found that to be the simplest. Only because it just gave me a hash-table of the thing, avoing the whole mop business for simple queries
<jackdaniel>
theothornhill: cl-json is even simpler than that
* easye
has been working with jsown. I have the start of a JSONpath library with jsown
<jackdaniel>
by being hard to use I mean that I've found it tricky to extend it to accept my own objects for serialization
<easye>
I'd like to make JSONpath work across the various json implementations.
<jackdaniel>
erm, all I've said about cl-json -- I've meant jsown (sorry!)
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<theothornhill>
Hadn't heard of jsown! Thanks
<easye>
jsown ain't the most convenient, but it is simple and fast.
<_death>
easye: well, I guess our usage differs.. the big reason why it's an annoyance is that I need to reach for the definition/docstring whenever I use it.. I always have lots of :force-binary t anyway
<_death>
*also have lots of
<_death>
I could write a wrapper and be done with it.. trouble is I use it in many projects and don't want them to depend on yet another one just for this
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<easye>
_death: thinking of the values for an HTTP request: it is probably worth it two create two facades, one for text oriented navigation, and one for binary requests, that call the underlying request method with appropiate defaults.
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<_death>
the worst is to sometimes return a string and sometimes not
<etimmons>
Dexador has the benefit of tying into windows libraries to handle https. I've never gotten openssl through drakma to really work for me on windows.
<theothornhill>
etimmons: nice point. It worked really easily earlier on my workmachine
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<jackdaniel>
I had one biggish problem in hunchentoot -- when you serve a file, you first need to load it into memory
<jackdaniel>
so you can't really serve big static files from it
<_death>
jackdaniel: ouch.. though I have it behind nginx and user the latter to serve most static files
<jackdaniel>
theothornhill: I've have not used cl-json extensively -- mostly jsown and yason
<_death>
*use
<jackdaniel>
_death: the problem was, that files were guarded by the session yada yada
<jackdaniel>
(so i.e it wasn't really a static file, 404 was returned when not "logged")
<_death>
jackdaniel: I see
<_death>
jackdaniel: shouldn't that be 403? :)
<jackdaniel>
or 403, that was a long time ago, and I wasn't the main implementer of that part
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<jackdaniel>
we've solved that with an obscure hack by creating a temporary symlink and letting (indeed) nginx to handle the request - the link was sent to the requestor and they were able to download the file
<jackdaniel>
then the symlink was removed
<_death>
jackdaniel: I think hunchentoot also lets you get a hold of the stream so you can diy.. and then, it can also be patched ;)
<jackdaniel>
I'm not saying that it disqualifies hunchentoot, still it is a problematic limitation
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<_death>
jackdaniel: yeah
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<citizenajb>
I have a type question. I think the result type of (* 3.0 x) where we know nothing about x (type t) is (or float (complex float))? sbcl does not seem to derive this, which to me means I might be wrong! See https://pastebin.com/MDm6fsrX for a case where it matters to me.
<aeth>
it is.
<citizenajb>
Thank you for the sanity check... I'll move to #sbcl
<aeth>
afaik, every number would become a (complex long-float) over time if you just kept doing generic arithmetic on randomly-typed things (in SBCL, though, a long-float is a double-float)
<aeth>
oh wait
<aeth>
no
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<aeth>
Wait, yes.
<aeth>
The 3.0 assuming 3.0f0 means it has to be (or single-float double-float long-float (complex single-float) (complex double-float) (complex long-float)) and in SBCL long-float is double-float
<aeth>
Technically, a compiler might choose that over (or float (complex float)) if it has a short-float, since it won't be a short-float.
<pfdietz>
Is there a recommended CL in-core database?
<phoe>
manardb maybe?
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<pfdietz>
I'll look at it. Is datafly recommended? It's Fukamachi, which might be a negative.
<phoe>
shka_: you had some recent encounter with manardb, right?
<aeth>
(to be very clear because someone is going to poke me in 15 hours about it... all CL compilers have short-float. What I meant by "if it has a short-float" is "if it has a distinct short-float")
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<pfdietz>
(feels preempted)
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<pfdietz>
(reads about manardb) This is a persistent object store; I was thinking more of a relational db.
<aeth>
citizenajb: and to really go into detail, SBCL supports rational as a *read-default-float-format* so without context (* 3.0 x) might result in a rational, but that would be resolved at read time, ahead of compiling it. I always do "3.0f0" when I mean single-float because sometimes I have it set to double-float when I'm using the REPL as a calculator.
<phoe>
oh, relational in-memory?
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<phoe>
hmm
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<citizenajb>
aeth: Thank you for the details!
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<Wezl>
where are some simple projects I can look at to understand cl packages?
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<pfdietz>
Really any system in quicklisp. Every one of them should use packages in some way. Pick a small one, then work up.
<no-defun-allowed>
At least he knows how to write a Lisp reader, I guess.
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<stylewarning>
I hereby vow to never write a blog post stating I’ve switched to a Lisp façade for an employer, and I hereby vow to never pull a Norvig and write 5 line Python scripts making claims it’s comparable to Lisp because I’ve lost the big picture of big software.
<stylewarning>
(What I can’t guarantee is that I’ll ever write a book as cool as Norvig’s hit)
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<jeosol>
stylewarning: that's funny. What's making you take that stand
<stylewarning>
Just as a sort of joke. Lots of career Lispers eventually fold and write something about their acceptance of some other state of affairs (which is of course fine).
<aeth>
I don't fold, I reduce.
<jeosol>
aeth: lol, is it the map variant of reduce?
<no-defun-allowed>
Fold must fold!
<theothornhill>
left or right?
<Alfr_>
jeosol, it's the other way around, you can easily implement map using reduce.
<jeosol>
yeah,
<jeosol>
aeth: so you are holding the line
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<aeth>
"y = m x + b" or "a x + b y + c = 0" or "y = y1 + m (x - x1)" or something else? So many different line equations.
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<jeosol>
aeth: lol, not what I meant but I get your point. Holding the line like in lisp line of defence
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<zulu-inuoe>
Hey all - Is there a way to make a two-way string stream, so that I can (write-line "foo" stream) and then (read-line stream) and get back "foo" ?
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<stylewarning>
zulu-inuoe: and you want to be able to extract the complete string at any time?
<alandipert>
zulu-inuoe make-two-way-stream could be the ticket
<alandipert>
call it a draw because you brought the link :-)
<stylewarning>
(:
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<zulu-inuoe>
stylewarning: I don't want/need the full string. I basically want a stream that never EOF's (until closed or something) that I can keep writing to
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<zulu-inuoe>
Maybe I misunderstood make-two-way-stream but I didn't see a way of doing that
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<zulu-inuoe>
BTW I realized I could solve my problem by using `:stream` for `:input` on `sb-ext:run-program`, but that still had me curious if creating this sort of stream was possible in standard CL (easy with gray streams)
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<Xach>
mgr_: it is done
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<Xach>
the planet lisp archives just keep getting older and older
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<Nilby>
but it's very young for a planet
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<mfiano>
zero-length PLNs are pointlessly valid it seems :) (:local-nicknames (#: #:alexandria))
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<Josh_2>
theothornhill: a bit late but I use jonathan to parse my json
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