jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | offtopic --> #lispcafe
<kpoeck> waf is he build tool used in clasp
<kpoeck> the build tool ..
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<Bike> yeah it does the source concatenation dealie so asdf.lisp isn't actually in the distribution
<Bike> i think that's how it works
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<kpoeck> yes this is done by ${MAKE-make} --quiet in https://github.com/clasp-developers/clasp/blob/master/wscript#L324
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<kpoeck> so basically we pull the asdf sources from https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf.git and build asdf.lisp  with ./waf update_dependencies in the clasp build process
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<Xach> thanks
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<tinga> Is there a way to search quicklisp packages by namespace?
<tinga> Or how do packages allocate namespaces at run time, is it a hard coded mapping or configured somehow?
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<tinga> What is the difference between foo::bar and foo:bar ?
<tinga> i.e. why are people sometimes using double colons?
<pfdietz> Single colon requires the symbol be external to the package.
<pfdietz> So, if you always use :, you will know you are only looking at the external interface of the package, not internal symbols that may change out from under you.  In general, it's a code smell to use ::.
<tinga> Aha, thanks!
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<White_Flame> tinga: packages (namespaces) are a flat, global space. The modern way to avoid collisions is to use long package names and package-local-nicknames to have a scoped, easier name for it
<White_Flame> but if you're learning and are mostly using libraries instead of creating a bunch of your own packages, you really don't have to worry about that
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<aeth> Yes, using :: is a code smell, but sometimes it's not on your end. If someone didn't export something and you actually need it and need to :: to get to it, then it's probably a bug.
<aeth> In particular, so many libraries don't export stuff that only exists as a type, e.g. structure classes, standard classes, manual DEFTYPEs, etc... which you might need if you want to use CHECK-TYPE.
<aeth> (Or if you want to subclass, I guess)
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<beach> Well, if the library creator meant for a class to be subclassed, its name should have been exported.
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<sveit> slynk/sly has awesome and very usable backreferences for statements evaluated in the REPL, is there something similar to get access to values eval'd from a buffer?
<sveit> or compiled? I am a bit surprised if not given how good the support for getting back values is otherwise. relatedly, it doesn't seem there is anything built-in to copy code to the mrepl from a buffer, although it exists for "buttons", is that by design?
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<splittist> beach: on the other hand, not meaning something to be subclassed is not the same as meaning it not to be subclassed. I'm sure I don't see all the ways my stuff can be extended and enhanced when writing a 'library'.
<beach> Sure.
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<asarch> I've tried several ways but I can't. How would you store the binary content of a #<FLEXI-STREAMS::VECTOR-INPUT-STREAM {10051D57A3}> into a file?
<asarch> Could you please give me an example? :-(
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<asarch> Parsing the POST message, I can get the "pointer" of the buffer with: (let ((file-uploaded-buffer (second (car _parsed)))) ...)
<asarch> But that's all :-(
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<Nilby> asarch: You could read it into a buffer and use alexandria:write-byte-vector-into-file, or you could use uiop:copy-stream-to-stream to an open octet file stream.
<asarch> What is exactly FLEXI-STREAMS::VECTOR-INPUT-STREAM? The pointer to the buffer, the content itself, or a structure that contains both things
<Nilby> Either way it's just reading bytes from one stream to another.
<asarch> That's the part I'm lost
<asarch> Something like a la C: while (!feof(fp)) {fscanf(...); fprintf(...);}?
<Nilby> It's a stream object that contains a vector of the bytes.
<Nilby> There's not really an analogue in C, but you would probably use fwrite of a buffer pointer in a stream struct in C.
<asarch> So, from that object I get the vector and from that vector I "put" those bytes in another stream pointing to a file, right?
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<Nilby> You don't need to get the vector. You can just read the bytes from it, and write them to an open file stream with a compatible element type.
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<Nilby> asarch: Here'a simple example https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2243#2243
<Nilby> But I would use something like uiop:copy-stream-to-stream, which does the whole thing at once.
<asarch> How?
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<Nilby> You can replace the loop in that example with a copy stream call.
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<Nilby> asarch: I'm sure you can do it. And let
<asarch> (with-open-file (file-output-stream "foo" ...) (uiop:copy-stream-to-stream #<FLEXI-STREAMS::VECTOR-INPUT-STREAM {10051D57A3}> file-output-stream)))
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<Alfr_> asarch, #< is not readable, that will error.
<Nilby> let's thank Edi for making such flexible streams, and Faré for putting a wacky library in asdf.
<Alfr_> asarch, you'll need to the handle to that stream object some other way.
<asarch> I mean, that was only a "sketch" about the code
<Alfr_> s/to the/to get the/
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<asarch> The controller starts with: (defroute ("/" :method :POST) (&key _parsed) ...)
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<asarch> _parse is where you can get all the data from the POST message which has a form of: (("file" #<FLEXI-STREAMS::VECTOR-INPUT-STREAM {10051D57A3}> "139626492_3531143143657758_2613955532857309082_o.jpg" "image/jpeg"))
<asarch> So, for example, to get the name of the uploaded file would be with: (let ((uploaded-file-name (third (car _parsed)))) ...)
<asarch> And, to get the "handler" of the buffer: (uploaded-file-buffer (second (car _parse)))
<asarch> So, (uiop:copy-stream-to-stream uploaded-file-buffer file-output-stream), right?
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<Alfr_> asarch, I'm not familiar with that library, sorry.
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<asarch> Don't worry :-)
<Nilby> Well, you need to open the file stream, so you probably need a with-open-file in there.
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<Nilby> or you could use this https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2244#2244
<Nilby> or actually no
<asarch> HOLD MY BEER!!!
<asarch> IT WORKED!!
<asarch> YOU ARE MY HERO MAN!!!
<Nilby> Yes!! I knew you could do it!
<asarch> Actually your first code did the magic
<asarch> This my code: https://pastebin.com/ZKFRM2ag
<asarch> Sorry for the mess, you know :-P
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<asarch> Cleaning the awful code: https://pastebin.com/eREZ4phF
<asarch> We get this beautiful piece of code to upload files to your PC from your cellphone at home :-)
<Nilby> I think if you add an element-type the copy-stream should work: (uiop:copy-stream-to-stream uploaded-file-buffer file-stream :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)))
<asarch> Let's try it!
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<asarch> Yeah! That also does the magic
<Nilby> Cool. That should be much faster.
<asarch> Thank you Nilby
<asarch> Thank you very much :-)
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<asarch> I owe you some beers
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<Nilby> You're welcome.
<asarch> I uploaded that picture from the cellphone to my PC
<asarch> Now, let's post the solution in the Fukamachi-san account int GitHub :-)
<Nilby> Nice. It's good to host your own stuff.
<asarch> :-)
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<ralt> (format t "~a" foo) vs (format t "~A" foo) -- what's the difference? Is it a stylistic one at best?
<jdz> I personally capitalize the directives so that they stand out more.
<jdz> But yes, the case does not matter.
<ralt> Thanks
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<ldbeth> do you guys know if there's already a native LZ4 compression written in CL?
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<jmercouris> beach: can you please remind me the lisp style guide URL?
<jmercouris> or if anyone else knows it
<beach> I don't know any by heart. And there are several. Do you mean the one written by Fare et all when he worked for Google?
<jmercouris> beach: the one about using IF/WHEN
<beach> Oh, that one.
<beach> That would be the LUV slides by Norvig and Pitman.
<beach> Page 13.
<beach> If you google "LUV slides by Norvig and Pitman" you will find it.
<jmercouris> beach: thank you!
<beach> Sure.
<beach> It is not a very detailed style guide. It is more about understanding what style is for and why it is important.
<beach> Like it says, it is about memory. You want the person reading your code to have to remember as little as possible in order to understand the code. And that goal has several consequences...
<beach> You don't want to surprise the reader by doing something unusual.
<jmercouris> indeed, indeed
<jmercouris> :-)
<beach> You want to get rid of special cases first, so that the reader does not have to remember to look for them over a long chunk. Example: recursion should start with the base case.
<beach> The WHEN/IF thing is an example of both. When you use IF, you make the reader remember that there is an `else' part coming up when he or she is reading the `then' part.
<beach> So if there is no `else' part, then you have unnecessarily wasted the memory of the reader.
<beach> By using WHEN instead, you immediately tell the reader that there is no need to remember to look for any `else'.
* flip214 just found out that the _human_ reader is meant
<beach> I started writing "the person reading your code".
<ldbeth> it can be figured out by staring at the indentation
<flip214> yeah.... but when I switch windows, the first thing I see is the last line written.
<beach> Memory is also the reason for the rule about using the most specific construct that will accomplish the task at hand.
<beach> So the other day, we were asked about (mapcar ...) vs (map 'list ...)
<beach> when the ... are all lists, then mapcar is more specific, so it should be used in that case.
<ldbeth> it is too verbose to write (map 'list
<beach> Verbosity is not the main argument though. It is about specificity.
<ldbeth> on the other hand, (if c (progn ...)) vs (when c ...)
<beach> What about it?
<ldbeth> (progn is a structure that doesn't contributes to the meaning of the program
<beach> ldbeth: Also, everything "can be figured out". That's not the point. Again, the point is how long it takes the person reading your code to figure it out.
<ldbeth> so I personaly perfer constructs with implicit progn if applicable
<beach> Yes, but again, this is not about personal preference, unless of course, you keep your code to yourself.
<beach> I'll say this again, it is about making life easier for a person reading your code.
<beach> It seems whenever style is discussed here, it always ends with people stating their personal preference, as if that is the important thing here.
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<beach> Anyway, time for a break.
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* ldbeth want to have so tea
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<Posterdati> hi
<Posterdati> please I need to write a small lisp interpreter on a microcontroller, shall I use scheme?
<Posterdati> thanks
<jackdaniel> try ulisp
<Posterdati> yes, ok thanks
<Posterdati> well I need the bnf coded grammar for a small subset of lip, I thought about scheme, from this project instead https://github.com/hmgle/yascm
<jackdaniel> Posterdati: I think that this is offtopic on this channel, so prolonging the discussion is not a good idea
<Posterdati> ?
<jackdaniel> this channel topic is Common Lisp (not its subsets or smaller relatives)
<jackdaniel> you may try on #scheme, ##lisp or #lispcafe
<phoe> ##lisp might be a better choice for that
* phoe highfives
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<Posterdati> ok
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<Josh_2> Ello
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<beach> Hello Josh_2.
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<Josh_2> How are your projects going beach?
<beach> Very well thank you.
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<beach> My latest invention for call-site optimization is going to require some more work, but it will be great in the end.
<Josh_2> What is call-site optimization?
<beach> This paper I am working on, and that I want to submit to ELS this year: http://metamodular.com/SICL/call-site-optimization.pdf
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<beach> Josh_2: Don't feel you have to read the draft paper. Essentially, it's a general technique to optimize functions calls so as to avoid overhead in the form of indirections, call-protocol costs, and argument parsing.
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<Josh_2> I have read most of it
<Josh_2> cant say I really understand it but I am not more curious about how CL functions are implemented
<Josh_2> I am more curious*
<beach> That's good! :)
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<dbotton> Xach when does the build of the next quickslip tar up my repo? Is it when the can build label is applied or does it happen closer to the new release?
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<Xach> dbotton: every day
<Xach> dbotton: if it continues to build, the version from the day of dist release is used.
<Xach> dbotton: i can also pull from a branch or a tag or a github release point
<Xach> or a tarball, or or or
<dbotton> Great
<Xach> if development breaks the build before a release, i will tell you via a github issue
<dbotton> When is the next release?
<dbotton> aprox
<Xach> dbotton: no set timetable but i would very much like it to be before february 1
<dbotton> Ok, so have some time to include some more tutorials and features. Thanks
<Xach> 100%
<Xach> but! if you want strong predictability in what will be in quicklisp, a branch or release is the way to go
<dbotton> Ok, I'll see what makes sense closer
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<gendl> Hi, is it normal to run a CL in WSL and connect with slime from an emacs running natively in Windows?
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<gendl> I'm officially moving off Mac as my main dev machine at this juncture.
<gendl> too much of a timesink.
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<gendl> and will give up supporting pre-built (signed/notarized etc) prebuilt gendl for Mac. Just do not have the time budget for that. I'm hoping most folks wanting to use it on mac can build it from quicklisp.
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<gendl> pity that it's just at a time when these shiny new M1 processors are coming out but oh well.
<posthuman_egrego> Hello
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<Xach> gendl: who is to say what is normal?
<Xach> gendl: if it works, maybe it is normal enough
<Xach> i once thought everyone used sbcl on linux
<gendl> Xach: good point.
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<Xach> i know someone who uses docker to run their lisp in a linux environment with some linux foreign libraries, but connect mac emacs to it through container port forwarding. docker shared filesystem helps keep things in sync.
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<anticrisis> gendl: I use WSL2, build emacs from source, and run it all on WSL, using a cheap X server for Windows. It was too complicated to get all the emacs bits and pieces working under Windows.
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<gendl> anticrisis: Thanks. The X server is not too much hassle? I've been doing ok with emacs on windows, except I haven't managed to get magit going (which admitedly is kind of a big deal)
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<anticrisis> Oh I should also say accessing the Windows filesystem is through /mnt/c/... etc and works fine, though there is a bit of a performance hit
<anticrisis> No the X server was entirely turnkey - no config required - it's on the Microsoft Store - X410
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<gendl> anticrisis: but if you're running the whole thing under WSL then you shouldn't need the /mnt/c/ for much, right?
<anticrisis> Re magit, yeah, that's what I meant by all the bits and pieces - emacs needs all these external things to work well together, and sometimes they don't
<anticrisis> That's right, keep everything on the wsl filesystem, and it works great - for instance, build sbcl etc
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<anticrisis> but for anything you want to actually access from windows, you of course need to access via the mount points
<gendl> yep - and symbolic links from /home in WSL seem to work as expected for that
<anticrisis> yes
<gendl> i.e. no need actually to type /mnt/c/users/.... all the time
<anticrisis> If you do try to run magit over a mount point, or treemacs, it can take several seconds to load
<gendl> good to know. I think I'll try that X server... let's see the cost...
<gendl> hmm $49.99 marked down to $9.99 for the next 20 days
<anticrisis> The one thing about X410 is you need to select the "Allow Public Access" option - which in practice shouldn't matter because you've got windows firewall, but take note
<gendl> noted. And why did you build emacs from source rather than `sudo apt-get install emacs` ?
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<anticrisis> Ah - I wanted to try the native compilation branch, which was pretty neat - eventually just went back to the bleeding edge - release version would be just fine
<gendl> got it
<anticrisis> X410 on WSL instructions: https://x410.dev/cookbook/wsl/using-x410-with-wsl2/
<anticrisis> when I said "no config" I forgot about setting the DISPLAY variable correctly
<gendl> 👌🏻👍🏻🙏🏻
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