jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | offtopic --> #lispcafe
<lotuseater> or that return is another thing, wrapping it to the monad again
<duuqnd> IIRC there's someone who's in the process of making a commercial game in Lisp.
<duuqnd> Was it Shinmera?
<no-defun-allowed> Yes, Shinmera et al are making https://store.steampowered.com/app/1261430/Kandria/ in Common Lisp.
<duuqnd> Yeah, that's the one I was thinking of.
<no-defun-allowed> Yeah, you use return (cl-d2: finish) to lop off an action.
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<no-defun-allowed> lotuseater: Generally, I've heard monads don't really make sense with mutation or without type maths to decide which implementation of >>= makes sense, and so on. But you can't have uncontrolled mutation in concurrent programs, and I only have one action protocol, so I can get away with it.
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<lotuseater> good
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<no-defun-allowed> duuqnd: You don't have to dunk on anyone in the game jam to make your point. (But I find pretend small machines boring, unless it's MY pretend small machine, in which case it's very fun...)
<duuqnd> I was more thinking of making an entry just so there'd be some Common Lisp representation, even if it'd be a crappy little game by me.
<no-defun-allowed> (Mostly because I have to decide what "bloat" I want to put in it, and I have slowly been looking at compiling to machine code, so that I can try larger experiments with it.)
<aeth> no-defun-allowed: "late 2022" so there's plenty of time for someone to release first.
<no-defun-allowed> Who cares?
<aeth> someone might care
<no-defun-allowed> I don't think someone will make another Kandria, at least.
<aeth> no
<aeth> And, importantly, this is an already-present result. https://github.com/Shinmera/cl-steamworks
<duuqnd> I was working on a first-person shooter at one point, but then I realized that my engine was garbage and I didn't have the time nor energy to fix it, so I gave up. It didn't help that I'm not very good at game development.
<aeth> duuqnd: Lower your standards. Can you do Quake? Doom?
<no-defun-allowed> Those are still well above a 128x96 top down tile thing.
<no-defun-allowed> That's not to say you can't make a good game with that, and a bad game with a Quake clone, but you don't have to do that much to stand out.
<duuqnd> I thought I could do a wolfenstein clone to start off with as practice, but it was too much work with my garbage engine. I did make a rather half-decent level editor in McCLIM that I'm semi-proud of though, so it wasn't all bad.
<duuqnd> I think that project taught me more about CLIM than game development
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<aeth> duuqnd: Well, for me personally... after 7 years, I have this: https://i.imgur.com/vjaEJtl.png
<aeth> Gamedev's time consuming
<duuqnd> Well, if you're sharing a screenshot I guess it's only fair that I share one too. https://i.imgur.com/49JnHB8.png This is what my game looked like a few months before I stopped working on it.
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<lotuseater> duuqnd: look at how much people are working on cyberpunk :) and it neither runs bugfree (yet)
<aeth> duuqnd: that's pretty far along
<aeth> duuqnd: looks like you're just missing lighting, and maybe collision
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<duuqnd> Collision was easy since the map is grid based. Lighting was a little tricker, but I did get it working. I'm just a bad environmental artist.
<duuqnd> I think I have some newer screenshots on my laptop
<aeth> art's somebody else's role
<duuqnd> Yeah, I was always planning to get someone else to do that. The main problem was always gameplay, though. There wasn't any. For some reason, I just never got around to adding any gameplay.
<aeth> that's fine
<duuqnd> Well, it wasn't a total failure since I learned a lot from it.
<aeth> there's lots of passable free art out there that you can use for prototyping
<aeth> (it just has the side effect of making your game look like a mobile game for some strange and totally coincidental reason...)
<duuqnd> Yeah, art was never something I worried about. It was always that I got distracted by things.
<duuqnd> https://imgur.com/1GePGT4 I got distracted by adding chromatic abberation to the HUD, for example.
<duuqnd> (ignore the window name, it was a jokey working title for the game)
<aeth> I can't say that I haven't seen that effect before in low-poly, low-res indie games... but it's definitely out of place.
<lotuseater> duuqnd: maybe you can also learn something from that: https://github.com/gregcman/sucle
<aeth> you should just focus on the minimum mechanics needed to get a "game". Not a real game, just moving around in a maze like the Windows screensaver
<aeth> you should pick textures as a homage to that, too
<duuqnd> Yeah, the main point is that I always got distracted by small things like this and never got anything done as a result.
<duuqnd> The game never got any gameplay, because small things kept distracting me
<duuqnd> I did make a real game before I worked on this one though. It was sort of a crappy 3D remake of Spacewar.
<aeth> Surprisingly, 3D Maze came out after Wolfenstein 3D, which was like 3D Maze, but with actual gameplay.
<aeth> After Doom, too.
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<aeth> duuqnd: Heh. Did you know that Spacewar! and Lisp are linked? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Russell_(computer_scientist)
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<duuqnd> That's pretty interesting. I knew that MIT was involved in both, but I didn't know about Steve Russell.
<aeth> He's still alive and he probably has an active email somewhere, so maybe he'd be interested in a Spacewar clone in Common Lisp if it's good.
<duuqnd> Well, I certainly won't show him my hastily hacked together one.
<aeth> The only difference between something that's hastily hacked together and something that's good is time.
<aeth> There are no bad games, only games released too soon.
<duuqnd> True, but I didn't have a lot of time for this project since it was for the Lisp game jam and I spent too much time on an idea I couldn't implement.
<duuqnd> So the result became something functioning but janky
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<duuqnd> I also spent a lot of time on implementing multiplayer only to realize that it was too impractical for anyone to bother with.
<thmprover> You could have two AI play against each other.
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<duuqnd> Well, the AI was complete garbage, so it wouldn't be very interesting. In fact, the only thing that made the game even slightly fun was that the position of everything was modulo'd to be kept inside the play area, making it kind of like a bullet hell game if you shot enough. It's hard to explain.
<duuqnd> Here's a screenshot of what I think is a slightly early version https://i.imgur.com/FqtB7sk.png (I don't know what the spiky thing is) Basically, using a modulo and rendering multiple copies, it looked like there was an infinite amount of space, but things were always kept inside a small square.
<duuqnd> I used wireframe because I suck at arm
<duuqnd> art*
<aeth> that looks much better than your other art
<aeth> if you can go with a minimalist style that looks good, that's good
<duuqnd> Yes. My other "art" was blue bricks.
<aeth> The best example of minimalism in game art: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Hexagon#/media/File:Super_Hexagon_-_PC_Hexagon.png
<duuqnd> I think minimalist is the only style I can do at all, so that's what I'll stick to in the future.
<aeth> If you look at a video of it, the game rotates around and stuff. It looks cool. It's probably almost entirely programmatic
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<duuqnd> My internet connection decided to die for a second there.
<lotuseater> welcome back :)
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<thmprover> Can I have nested packages?
<thmprover> I'm trying to store some simple physics data, and I thought I could do something like "data:sun:mass", though I guess "sun:mass" is just as good.
<aeth> nested packages would be nice
<aeth> but the ASDF semi-enforced convention is to use a /
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<aeth> like data/sun:mass
<aeth> the only disadvantage is that you can't use it with FORMAT since it doesn't look like there's a way to escape a / and FORMAT assigns a special meaning to ~/ to call a function. But nobody uses that feature.
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<aeth> there are at least two ways to then reexport exports from data/sun also from data (but that's a bad name for a top-level package)
<aeth> one's in UIOP, the other is... defpackageplus or something like that.
<moon-child> #d
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<nij> Has anyone tried abo abo's lispy, and recommend it? https://github.com/abo-abo/lispy
<nij> it seems full fledged and powerful..
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<no-defun-allowed> I don't have a teletype to edit LISP on :(
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<Nilby> aeth: I use that feature.
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<lotuseater> Nilby: could you give an example for ~/ plz? :)
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<Nilby> I have a print-string which for strings which contain fonts and colors effects.
<Nilby> And an output stream that can handle them. So something like:(format *terminal* "~&~23/fancy:print-string/" (ß '(:bg-blue (:fg-cyan "---Fizzy--"))))
<Nilby> And then you have a thing like: (defun print-string (stream obj colon-p at-sign-p &rest args) which does the work.
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<Nilby> But I'm not sure it's worth the effort actually.
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<lotuseater> ehm yes but thx anyway
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<Nilby> abuse of cl:format was a sport, perhaps like a foxhunt
<aeth> I go the other direction and mostly avoid FORMAT
<Nilby> That's quite sensible really.
<aeth> Depends on whatever's clearest, though. I'll use ~A or ~D or whatever rather than using the print function equivalents.
<aeth> Just as a one line thing, though.
<aeth> And if it's multiple lines, then I'll prefer something like (format stream "~D ~D ~D~%" ...) (format stream "~D ~D~%" ...)
<aeth> Only very tangentially related, but it looks like PPRINT is one of the few things that returns (values) rather than something like NIL, and that's weird. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm
<aeth> I guess that's just a sign that many authors were involved in the standard.
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<Nilby> Hmmm. That's very curious, but I think there's a historical practical reason. I think pprint was a later addtion.
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<Nilby> There's this paper on pprint which puts me to sleep, http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/6503/AIM-1102.pdf but explains other uses for ~//
<lotuseater> i wouldn't know enough or am too lazy to live without FORMAT anymore
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<aeth> I use FORMAT, but trying to do everything inside of one FORMAT is just going to make things less readable
<aeth> besides, it's fun to say TERPRI sometimes
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<Nilby> Yes. But, it's speaking words like terpri and cdadr that get us lispers weird looks.
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<Oladon> Ooh, I've not heard terpri pronounced... is it TUR-pree, like turpentine and preliminary?
<Oladon> I do like cdadr.
<lotuseater> cadadadadr :D
<Oladon> It's our Shibboleth :P
<Oladon> "Here, pronounce this"
<lotuseater> could also be a magical spell (which it actually is ^^)
<Oladon> hehe
<edgar-rft> it's short for "terminate printing" so I think it sounds like the concatenation of the first syllables of both words
<Oladon> But you can't end words in short vowels like that in English...
<Oladon> Then again, I guess it's not really English.
<edgar-rft> be a grammar rebel!
<Oladon> lotuseater: I find it amusing that you decided to put the stress in the same place I did.
<lotuseater> and "~5%" transforms into five TERPRIs?
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<lotuseater> Oladon: how do you mean exactly? :)
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<Oladon> If it sounds like a magical incantation, then that tells me you're pronouncing it cadadaDAdr
<edgar-rft> five terpri points for lotuseater :-)
<lotuseater> abra cadadar
<Oladon> Which is also how I chose to pronounce it.
<no-defun-allowed> I use the-cost-of-nothing:write-si-unit which is a longer form of ~U.
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<lotuseater> i learned pronounciation of it from SICP
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<Oladon> Since we're sharing fun things, here's a quote I _really_ enjoyed from phoe's book: "The function invoke-debugger [...] is the equivalent of a turtle falling on its back and wiggling its limbs hopelessly in the air; the program has exhausted all chances of handling an error gracefully and, therefore, has no choice but to handle it disgracefully."
<phantomics> Hey, I just learned something really weird
<Oladon> phantomics: How to pronounce cadadadadr?
<phantomics> SBCL has problems concurrently assigning elements of arrays when the element size is below 7 bits
<phantomics> Check this out: https://dpaste.com/DU9JE9VAA
<lotuseater> phantomics: what did you learn?
<lotuseater> uiii
<phantomics> With lparallel active and an lparallel kernel set up, try evaluating the first expression several times, then the second
<phantomics> The arrays produced by the second expression will occasionally contain 0s
<no-defun-allowed> I can see that.
<phantomics> Those being elements that didn't get set
<aeth> Interesting about ~5%
<aeth> I've probably seen it before but forgotten about it
<aeth> I've only ever needed to do ~% or ~%~% and I think ~%~% is clearer than ~2%
<phantomics> It's been daunting my efforts to parallelize April
<phantomics> I guess it's because it takes more instructions to set those small words or something?
<phantomics> Try the assignment with a character array, or a signed byte array or a float or t-type array and it works fine
<lotuseater> wtf i don't have zeros? but I'm sure too dumb again
<lotuseater> which version of SBCL?
<no-defun-allowed> (unsigned-byte 7) looks okay, I see it uses bytes: MOV [RDX+3], AL
<Nilby> phantomics: That's an interesting bug. I can see how that's tricky to generate good code for.
<no-defun-allowed> (unsigned-byte 4) perhaps modifies nibbles?
<Oladon> Nilby: heh
<no-defun-allowed> If I may, maybe it wouldn't be so bad to only specialize above (unsigned-byte 8).
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<phantomics> sbcl 2.0.2
<phantomics> That's what I'm thinking, have 8 be the min
<lotuseater> aeth: you're right, if not too many lines are terminated that way
<no-defun-allowed> Or forgo concurrent/parallel writing of anything smaller than bytes, if you really want the space savings.
<phantomics> I need the ability to cast to different types for some purposes, like when writing .png files I need arrays of 8-byte ints
<lotuseater> i have 2.0.8 (not the newest i know)
<lotuseater> phantomics: how many workers do you have in your lparallel kernel?
<phantomics> It seems to work find in CCL though
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<no-defun-allowed> Does Clozure produce dense arrays?
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<phantomics> lotuseater: I've tried with different numbers and had similar results, usually I'm using 23 workers for my 24 threads - 1 on my main machine
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<lotuseater> ah okay
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<phantomics> Reducing the number of threads or the size of the array seems to reduce the missed elements
<phantomics> But they show up if you iterate enough
<lotuseater> i could push more workers and see how it does then
<aeth> phantomics: 24? so 3900X?
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<phantomics> Yeah
<aeth> everyone needs a 3900X
<aeth> then everything will be threaded...
<no-defun-allowed> CNR here, but I can believe it.
<Nilby> If I was writing C or assmebly for that, I would copy wordsize words until the last parts. Lisp is supposed to be better, but...
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<phantomics> Problem with wordsize words is that in some situations I'm catenating, rotating or reshaping arrays
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<phantomics> The threading gives me an immense speed boost for these ops, 10-15x the single-threaded
<lotuseater> aeth: my think pad wouldn't like the AMD Ryzen :D
<phantomics> Next I want to try it on a Threadripper
<Nilby> one could do things with displaced arrays and row-major-aref, but it would be of course be nicer if the compiler could generate fast, correct code.
<phantomics> I already do all array ops with row-major-aref
<phantomics> You have to for good speed
<lotuseater> Nilby: what would you use instead?
<phantomics> My old method was to use a function that recursively descended through dimensions and then passed the coordinates of each element as a list plus the content of the element to a function and did transformations on the coordinates
<Nilby> derp, I just re-read and noticed the row-major-aref
<phantomics> It was really elegant code to read, but slow and hard to parallelize
<aeth> lotuseater: there's a Threadripper laptop. get that.
<phantomics> Seriously?
<Nilby> A common technique is round up the image rowsize to the machine wordsize, so copying works out.
<lotuseater> aeth: I'M very sure it's out of my current money scope and will be long :D
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<aeth> I mean it'd probably just be cheaper and a better experience to get a full threadripper PC and a high-end laptop with any battery life at all.
<phantomics> That's a small form-factor pc, not a laptop
<no-defun-allowed> I wouldn't mind a small desktop attached to a screen, keyboard and trackpad. Trouble is powering the thing - someone told me they wouldn't mind carrying a SLA battery in a backpack, but that seems unlikely for most people.
<lotuseater> yes when then I'll buy a good stand PC with an actual GPU
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<phantomics> What's the application? What are you going to do with the thing you couldn't do with a regular laptop SSHed to a more powerful machine? Some kind of graphics work in the field where you can't take a bigger computer?
<no-defun-allowed> In my case, audio processing.
<no-defun-allowed> This laptop goes considerably slower while charging, and I find I need to charge it while doing that.
<phantomics> You have one?
<no-defun-allowed> Not the forementioned TR "laptop", but a laptop.
<phantomics> RIght
<phantomics> Ever used Lisp for that? I've done a bit of work with cl-portaudio
<no-defun-allowed> I expect you would have to take a portable reactor with that "laptop".
<no-defun-allowed> I wrote a synthesizer with Harmony and cl-alsa (for MIDI input), but it had pretty bad latency with Pulseaudio, and I can't seem to configure ALSA.
<lotuseater> no-defun-allowed: nuclear fission or fusion?
<phantomics> Tried with Jack?
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<no-defun-allowed> That is another option, yes.
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<phantomics> Say, maybe you know something about this
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<phantomics> I was using cl-portaudio to implement a spectrum analyzer, I would grab frames of audio and then do an FFT to get the spectrum values
<no-defun-allowed> Oh, I haven't touched any audio library directly.
<phantomics> However, I would always see a spike at the high end of the chart
<phantomics> I see
<phantomics> When I did this with the python portaudio, the high-frequency spike didn't happen
<no-defun-allowed> Hm.
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<no-defun-allowed> I'm not entirely sure, but I read that if you have N samples, everything over N/2 is bogus.
<no-defun-allowed> ...over the N/2th bin in your FFT output.
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<Nilby> maybe lisp math is too accurate
<no-defun-allowed> So, for a 44.1kHz input, you can't detect any frequencies over 22.05kHz.
<no-defun-allowed> I think that is in line with the Nyquist-Shannon theorem.
<lotuseater> no-defun-allowed: damn i was at typing you about just that :D
<lotuseater> *at typing to ask
<no-defun-allowed> I tried using FFT to clean up voice samples, and then blend them to make a text-to-speech system.
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<no-defun-allowed> I can't say I succeeded, but it was very fun, and we got some interesting noises out of it.
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<momozor> Is there a way so I can automatically use exported symbols from a library that clashes with existing CL symbols? It's quite tedious to tell SLIME to 'take-new' (using SBCL) every time my system got loaded with the imported library (it's CLIM with (:USE :CL :CLIM :CLIM-USER) by the way)
<phantomics> Yeah, in my case I was only using the n/2 samples and still seeing that spike
<no-defun-allowed> I think you either use CLIM-USER or CL, but then there's also CLIM-LISP?
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<no-defun-allowed> Yes, I think it should be (defpackage <name> (:use :clim-lisp :clim))
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<momozor> no-defun-allowed: Oh! Now I understand why there are more than one from CLIM. I should've investigate that beforehand. Thanks for pointing that out.
<no-defun-allowed> I would have to check the general case though.
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<no-defun-allowed> Well, generally you avoid :USE where possible, because if someone changes a package you use, then weird things can happen.
<momozor> I would prefer to use :IMPORT-FROM and invoking a symbol directly myself, but it's just for the sake of trying the library in the beginning since I'm still not familiar with it just yet.
<momozor> but again, thanks!
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<beach> moon-child: They must not have read the book "Modern Operating Systems" by Tanenbaum and Bos, in which they clearly explain that it is impossible to write an operating system in a language that uses garbage collection.
<beach> The fact that there were already such operating systems in existence when they wrote the book does not seem to have bothered them.
<no-defun-allowed> Is this in reference to the bare-metal Scheme implementation video?
<beach> Yeah.
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<beach> I just took the opportunity to lament the quality of software books; even those written by highly respected people in the field.
<beach> Highly qualified experts in algorithms and data structures can't even get binary search right.
<beach> So, to get back on topic, how can we expect books about programming and software development to treat Common Lisp the way it deserves?
<beach> "One thing you need in an operating system is access to files" [from the video].
<beach> So I guess Multics never existed either.
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<no-defun-allowed> I don't know how well they would handle a larger memory space, if their runtime causes stop-the-world pauses that would drop keys at a reasonable typing speed (by the example of an interrupt you can't wait for).
<beach> I haven't watched all of it yet. Is that the GC they are using?
<no-defun-allowed> ...while working with a memory space some magnitudes smaller?
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<beach> froggey says, "just make the GC interruptable"
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<lotuseater> how does one accomplish that?
<moon-child> sounds like a limitation of gambit scheme
<no-defun-allowed> That is another solution, yes.
<moon-child> lotuseater: have a backup arena, run interrupt code from that
<moon-child> so you just don't touch the main arena while the gc is running
<lotuseater> hmm ok
<beach> The project in the video is cute, but I don't think there is anything publishable in there, since most of the stuff has already been done multiple times.
<no-defun-allowed> At 12:50, they say "you can't tell the user to stop sending key-presses", but you would hopefully have pauses shorter than the time between keypresses. If I planted my face in the keyboard and rolled it around, I might be able to drop some keys, but it's an odd example.
<beach> I see.
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<no-defun-allowed> As a rough estimate, someone typing at 150wpm, which is well above average, with about 4 letters per word, would type 10 letters a second, so you could only hold interrupts for 100ms (assuming the time between presses is even).
<beach> Sounds right.
<beach> I designed the SICL nursery collector so that it would take only a few milliseconds which is what is required for applications like sound processing.
<lotuseater> how does the linux kernel handle this? i have no idea
<no-defun-allowed> Or, provided you can't leave some spare memory for interrupt handlers, would it be hard to have the interrupt handler not cons? It could just vector-push a character into a buffer, which would be very unlikely to overflow, even with a small buffer.
<moon-child> lotuseater: the linux kernel doesn't have a gc
<beach> You beat me to it.
<moon-child> and yes, most kernels have a fixed-size ring buffer they push events to
<no-defun-allowed> I recall something about how Linux handles it from a video where someone connected a 5Gbps network card to a Raspberry Pi. Hold on...
<lotuseater> moon-child: i know that. but i meant the many words typing
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<no-defun-allowed> https://github.com/geerlingguy/raspberry-pi-pcie-devices/issues/3#issuecomment-719781909 showed me that Linux has a ksoftirqd kernel task, which handles interrupts can queue.
<no-defun-allowed> ...handles interrupts the kernel can queue for later.
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<moon-child> eh, making memory managers is hard
<beach> If it's not hard, it's not worth doing.
<moon-child> sure, but you always have to pick something to prioritize
<beach> I guess so.
<no-defun-allowed> They mention one Lisp operating system, which has an even worse memory manager (well, I guess it usually reduces pause times, but that's the only thing going for it).
<beach> no-defun-allowed: Towards the end?
<beach> I haven't heard anything yet.
<no-defun-allowed> Towards the start of the paper.
<beach> OK.
<no-defun-allowed> That can be retrieved from https://icfp20.sigplan.org/details/scheme-2020-papers/3/Running-Scheme-On-Bare-Metal-Experience-Report- (yes, there is a trailing hyphen). I usually read the paper, because I'm a faster reader as my hearing is a bit wonky.
<beach> Thanks.
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<beach> They mention Mezzano, and something called ChrysaLisp.
<no-defun-allowed> Oh, at the end of the paper, they suggest writing the interrupt handling code in a restricted (presumably non-consing) Scheme, and to use the x86 compiler in Gambit to eliminate C code from the system.
<beach> They mention the first idea in the video as well.
<no-defun-allowed> Yeah, the latter is not a Common Lisp implementation, and I fear I'll break out in hives if I read any more of the implementation code.
<beach> Marc Feely, by the way, is the one who pissed all over my work on fast generic function dispatch.
<no-defun-allowed> Oh dear.
<no-defun-allowed> To be honest, (the part of) today (when I've been watching the channel) #lisp has been ragging on a few people today. I think you aren't in the wrong to bring Feely's record up, but again I'm far too good at putting out a stream of things I don't like, so I'll end it by mentioning that a Lisp implementor after the 80s has decided to use reference counting, stating "I'm not keen on GC".
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<no-defun-allowed> "Go out with a bang" and all.
* ck_ .oO( Can't we all just get along ? )
<no-defun-allowed> I have no intentions of getting along with people who are screwing up my field, whatever that may be.
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<zacts> can you run quicklisp on abcl?
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<easye> zacts: certainly. You can install it locally via (require :abcl-contrib)(require :quicklisp-abcl)
<zacts> nice, thanks
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<fiddlerwoaroof> What's the status of the december quicklisp dist?
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<Xach> fiddlerwoaroof: so many last-minute bugs are messing it up
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<Xach> The normal instructions for quicklisp are: 1. download https://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp 2. (load "quicklisp.lisp")
<Xach> My strategy for timing releases is breaking down a bit, and it will take some engineering to escape the trouble.
<Xach> It's based on the theory that most of the time, most things build and work together fine.
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<Xach> If I had an easy system to say "go back to the last version of X that built fine" i could make progress.
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<Xach> (it would not be too hard to make that system, but it doesn't exist yet)
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<Xach> fiddlerwoaroof: http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-12-19/failure-report.html has today's failure report
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<lotuseater> Xach: sounds like something how Nix and GUIX work, declarative reproducible builds
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<Xach> A better system than the current would be great. I hate delaying releases so much.
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<lotuseater> i can load in a nix-shell the lispPackages.quicklisp but didn't fit that to other stuff yet
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<lotuseater> but maybe this is of more use: https://github.com/SquircleSpace/ql2nix
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<Xach> Not to me, unfortunately.
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<Xach> It feels good to add some quality planet lisp blogs!
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<phoe> Xach: I am considering moving off Movim because it has that ugly code snippet bug unfixed for months/years
<phoe> is there any kind of blogging software/platform that you would recommend?
<Xach> phoe: not really, i use tumblr now but it doesn't work well either.
<Xach> i think self-hosting with simple software would be best. i don't know if that exists.
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<phoe> hmmmm
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<phoe> a blog at github pages is always an option
<phoe> or at another gitlabesque instance, maybe at clnet even
* phoe thinks
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<charles`> Has anyone managed to use usocket for websockets?
<phoe> websockets have little in common with traditional unix sockets
<phoe> they're a higher level construct
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<charles`> I'm looking for a portable websocket library, I've tried websocket-driver and clws.
<phoe> I'm not aware of any other ones
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<charles`> Is there something fundamental that is preventing a websocket library from being portable, or should I attempt to create my own?
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<nij> Hi, I am following a tutorial to compile lisp scripts.. using UIOP. I got an error however: https://bpa.st/6DGQ
<nij> (In case it would be helpful, the tutorial is here: https://ebzzry.io/en/script-lisp/ I'm compiling "general.lisp".)
<nij> I'm not familiar with UIOP unfortunately, so don't know how to fix. The main complaint seems to be "Can't inherit "TIMESTAMP<" from "LOCAL-TIME", it is inherited from "UIOP/UTILITY"".
<phoe> package name conflict.
<phoe> what is your DEFPACKAGE?
<phoe> you cannot use both LOCAL-TIME and UIOP inside it because they have conflicting symbols.
<phoe> s/package name/symbol name/
<nij> What is my DEFPACKAGE?
<phoe> yes
<phoe> which script are you trying to compile?
<phoe> could you link it?
<nij> It's generali.lisp in https://ebzzry.io/en/script-lisp/
<nij> s/generali/general/
<phoe> oh
<phoe> it's broken then
<nij> Jeez :(
<phoe> mail the author with the backtrace.
<nij> Dependencies are outdated?
<phoe> honestly, I don't know
<phoe> there's a symbol conflict because both UIOP and LOCAL-TIME export a symbol named TIMESTAMP<
<phoe> so right now there's an obvious conflict
<dra> Hi phoe!
<phoe> you could try to work around this by removing most of the USEd packages and adapting the code as appropriate
<phoe> or try to use package-local nicknames instead of USE, because PLNs are resistant to this sorta thing.
<phoe> dra: hey hi
<nij> phoe: OK! Thanks :D
<dra> phoe: May I query you?
<phoe> dra: sure
<phoe> nij: that's the main trouble with USE
<phoe> you can describe it with a meme
<nij> xD
<phoe> #<PACKAGE MY-PACKAGE>: uses two other packages
<nij> The author has a github repo with his cl scripts. I can look into that and see how to fix.
<phoe> #<PACKAGE DEPENDENCY-1>: exports a symbol named FOO
<phoe> The next version of #<PACKAGE DEPENDENCY-2>: https://i.imgflip.com/2ves3p.jpg
<nij> Ha! The funniest part?
<nij> Is that I don't understand yet.
<nij> :(
<nij> I'll keep this joke in mind.. hopefully.
<phoe> nij: okay, so
<phoe> you have a package named MY-PACKAGE that uses two packages, DEPENDENCY-1 and DEPENDENCY-2
<phoe> DEPENDENCY-1 exports a symbol named FOO
<nij> (following!)
<phoe> DEPENDENCY-2 doesn't export such a symbol, so all is good
<nij> Oh oh!
<charles`> couldn't you also do shadowing import
<phoe> but then the maintainers of package DEPENDENCY-2 submit a new version of the package, with an additional exported symbol named FOO
<nij> I get it now.
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<phoe> charles`: you could, but then you need to be aware of which symbols to shadowing-import
<phoe> you can't predict it ahead of time in the general case
<phoe> but to finish the tale
<nij> Yeah. Thanks for your patience.!
<nij> I get it now.
<phoe> you update your quicklisp dist, try to load your code
<phoe> and then DEFPACKAGE MY-PACKAGE explodes even though you have not done a single thing to break it
<phoe> ...other than deciding to use :USE
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<phoe> which is something that may or may not explode, depending on how the stars configure themselves
<nij> The author's repo uses :USE.
<nij> I should probably avoid that then.
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<phoe> now that PLNs are widespread, it's generally considered better style to use them rather than USE
<phoe> precisely for the reasons I have mentioned earlier
<nij> package-local nicknames?
<phoe> yes
<nij> so you mean... local-time:foo?
<phoe> more like (defpackage my-package ... (:local-nicknames (#:t #:local-time))) and then t:foo
<nij> oh isee (:local-nicknames (#:a #:alexandria.dev.0))) ;; (2)
<nij>
<phoe> oh! I see you found my post
<nij> :D
<phoe> I need to edit it someday..
<nij> Oh it's yours! Wonderful algorithm.
<phoe> algorithm?
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<nij> Google. Nvm!
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<fiddlerwoaroof> Xach: cool, are package download statistics still available?
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<nij> phoe: After your explanation, I fixed it myself. Thank you :D
<phoe> nij: <3
<phoe> please mail the author with your fixes, maybe they can make use of them
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<charles`> https://github.com/wisesimpson/cl-websocket might be a good starting place
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<Xach> fiddlerwoaroof: i have not kept them up to date, sorry.
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<Xach> i have the infrastructure but have not pushed the "update stats and publish" button in a long time.
<Xach> (it's more than just one button)
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<phoe> Xach: how can we help?
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<Xach> phoe: The main pain point is going from an SQL table to a Blogger post. I run a report, cut and paste, reformat, and paste into blogger. It's not terrible to do once, but to do monthly it's an annoying chore.
<Xach> phoe: I wouldn't mind publishing the raw data as CSV regularly so someone else could do the work.
<Xach> it's also not so impossible to automate, but i haven't investigated
<phoe> Xach: please do! Once I have a stable parametrized URL with CSV data auto-published from you, I can even write a Lisp system that auto-formats this stuff and push it to Quicklisp.
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<phoe> (ql:quickload :quicklisp-stats) or something.
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<Xach> strewth
<Xach> ok, i'll look into it
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<phoe> okay, (ql:quickload :strewth)
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<Xach> oh lord, i have probably 50k web log files to import.
<Xach> the journey of fifty thousand log files begins with a single entry
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<phoe> welp
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<Xach> ok, in 15 minutes, it processed 1 week out of about 40. phoe, please remind me to look at it again tomorrow.
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<nij> #'shell-command sends a string to shell.
<nij> However, some command wants to interact with me..
<nij> is there any work around in emacs?
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<nij> OH no it's the wrong place. I got logged into #lisp automatically again. Sorry..
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<nij> s/.*//
<lotuseater> hi nij
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<phoe> Xach: you are not doing this manually though, are you
<phoe> I shall remind you tomorrow
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<Xach> phoe: it's a program that fetches all pending logfiles from cloudfront
<Xach> it has just processed march 23rd. (it started on january 20)
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<phoe> I see
<phoe> it does seem slow though
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<Xach> I ususally run it a few times per day and it only processes a little at a time. Catching up on 11 months wasn't a design priority.
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<phoe> ooooh
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<_death> "There is one currently known bug in the who-calls database code. It arises when a function calls itself, either directly or indirectly, through a chain of other functions [...]"
<_death> oh, screamer..
<_death> I think it's more severe actually
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