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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<oni-on-ion>
happy holiday(s) beach !
<beach>
Thank you! You too. And everyone else.
<charles`>
hi
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<beach>
Hello charles`.
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<pfdietz>
FCGE would be a kind of Lisp virtualization?
<beach>
That's a good analogy.
<beach>
I invented them for two purposes. The most immediate one was bootstrapping. I needed a way to isolate SICL code from host code with the same names, for the purpose of bootstrapping.
<beach>
The second purpose is one of security. I wanted it to be harder to have malware installed in your system if all you do is load some code.
<beach>
By moving sensitive things like code generators to a separate first-class global environment, it becomes harder to violate the internal consistency of the system.
* beach
apologizes for the dangling participle.
<pfdietz>
I could use something like that for mutation testing, although I could also fork and do dangerous things in the child process.
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<beach>
So, "Santa" gave me phoe's book as a present, so thank you phoe for writing it.
* beach
has this suspicion that "Santa" was really his (admittedly small) family in disguise.
<beach>
I think the book is an important document. The introduction by Kent Pitman and the preface clearly show how the creators of every mainstream language invented after Multics PL/I got it wrong, which of course is simultaneously totally amazing and totally absurd.
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<charles`>
how come functions exist? why isn't everything a defmethod?
<beach>
If every function was specified to be generic (which is probably what you mean), then there would be problems with what the AMOP calls "metastability". However, the standard allows for the system implementer to create a generic function in place of an ordinary function when that is practical.
<charles`>
Does that mean that it could get confused which method to call?
<beach>
It means that you would get into an infinite computation. For example, if you add a method to a generic function, you need to compute its discriminating function. But then, if you add a method to the function that computes discriminating functions, you immediate get into an infinite computation .
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<charles`>
I see
<edgar-rft>
charles`: the reason is just simply that functions do not need to dispatch their arguments and therefore are usually faster than methods, another reason is historical, Lisp had functions *before* it had methods.
<charles`>
Excellent points
<beach>
edgar-rft: I really don't want to discourage people from using generic functions on the basis of performance. Especially programmers with only superficial knowledge can take that kind of advice to be a rule, and that would encourage lesser solutions to many problems.
<beach>
Furthermore, the performance problem is mainly due to the fact that existing Common Lisp implementations were created at a time when a memory access was as fast as a register access, so the techniques for generic dispatch used in current systems are not optimal. But we know how to do it better these days.
<charles`>
My particular use case is that I want a subroutine called "close" but that is used by common-lisp:close for streams. I'm closing something else.
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<beach>
charles`: You would create your own package in which CLOSE is a different symbol. Then you make your "subroutine" a generic function as much as you like.
<charles`>
but I also want to export it. if someone :use s my library then it would conflict right?
<beach>
They should not :USE your package.
<charles`>
It isn't designed to be :USE anyway
<charles`>
but I am :USE :cl
<beach>
Now that we have package-local nicknames, there is no need to :USE packages other than the COMMON-LISP package.
<beach>
You can :USE the COMMON-LISP and :SHADOW symbol names that you want yourself.
<beach>
I do that all the time.
<edgar-rft>
:USE :CL is okay but :USE :RANDOM-PACKAGE can lead to problems
<charles`>
as long as it dosn't export the symbol "close"
<beach>
You can export the symbol CLOSE and you should if you want client code to use it.
<charles`>
I meant as long as the "random package" doesn't export close
<beach>
charles`: It is a bad idea to :USE packages other than the COMMON-LISP package, as edgar-rft points out.
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<beach>
charles`: Imagine a future version of the random package that now exports one more symbol that clashes with a symbol with a similar name in a different package that you :USE. That means that the author of a random package can break your code.
<beach>
Not a great scenario.
<charles`>
Is there a way for asdf or quicklisp to ask for a specific version of a package?
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<charles`>
"Now that we have package-local nicknames..." is that because we can just make very short nicknames?
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<beach>
Yes.
<charles`>
pws
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<phoe>
beach: thanks
<phoe>
hope it serves you well
<phoe>
charles`: (local-nicknames (#:p #:systems.raptor.very.long.package.name.by.phoe)) and then (p:foo ...)
<beach>
I am sure it will.
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<phoe>
hmmmmm
<phoe>
I am working on a state machine right now
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<phoe>
and I want to be able to test individual states separately
<phoe>
but I also want the final state machine to compile into a single big TAGBODY for efficiency
<phoe>
does anyone know of a library that achieves these goals, or is it time for holiday phoe hacking?
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Hi, everyone!
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<phoe>
heyyyy
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I see bugging people about quicklisp stats actually had an effect :)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
thanks phoe / Xach !
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<phoe>
fiddlerwoaroof: :D
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* phoe
finds no such library
* phoe
invokes quickproject:make-project
<v3ga>
ok, so i just recently updated to sbcl 2.0.11 and used it for a few days. now for some reason it's not working on OSX. then on my linux box sly is acting odd. I can start sly up but in my lisp files it refuses to connect
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<v3ga>
ok well thats one down...osx works again.
<phoe>
what's the sly issue? why does it refuse to connect?
<phoe>
what does the inferior-lisp buffer say?
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<v3ga>
well inferior I have set to "/usr/bin/local/sbcl" which oddly did work last night.
<phoe>
no, I mean the buffer
<v3ga>
ahh one sec
<v3ga>
phoe: yeah that works. 2.0.11 appears as it shoudl
<phoe>
I mean, you said it refuses to connect
<phoe>
what does the *inferior-lisp* buffer say when you try to execute sly?
<v3ga>
so M-X sly...it opens a sly-mrepl but say if i try to evaluate an s-expr from my lisp file thats open it says "Not Connected."
<phoe>
you keep on avoiding my question
<phoe>
what does the *inferior-lisp* buffer say after you have done M-x sly?
<v3ga>
oh it's still looking for slime-connection
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<v3ga>
and *inferior lisp* starts up and gives a repl and no further messaging. i should be able to work it out from here. I'm a bit unfamiliar with common lisp toolings in emacs but I at least see partially what it's doing now
<phoe>
hmmmmmm.
<phoe>
does it show that it's loading up sly? any messages there?
<v3ga>
yeah. what's happening is my buffer that holds .lisp files still goes to slime-mode. I'm not seeing where I hook it in my init but i'll find it. I need to do some pruning anyways. Funny it throws a message asking if you'd like to remove the slime hook which I choose 'yes' but it's still coming up. I'll chalk this up to my horrid .init.el
<phoe>
oooh
<phoe>
so you have clashes between slime and sly!
<v3ga>
yup. and oddly I have 100% of my slime related forms commented out. recompiled init.el.
<v3ga>
weird...
<v3ga>
i'll make it explicit...
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<v3ga>
phoe: interest, i had to completely remove slime. I'd had an issue...now that I remember. pulling sly from MELPA never worked on linux. I had to grab the git repo. on OSX it was installed in one shot.
<v3ga>
interesting*
<phoe>
I see
<v3ga>
I see some people have issues with 'sly-autoloads'. it seems to be hit or miss. ah well, it's working now
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<phoe>
What are the best practices when defining new DOCUMENTATION types?
<phoe>
I mean, defining the proper set of methods for DOCUMENTATION and where to store the docstrings.
<beach>
The best thing is when you can associate the docstring with some object being documented. Then you don't have to worry about what happens when the object disappears, or is redefined.
<phoe>
I'd like to have a similar API like CLHS DOCUMENTATION mentions for method combinations, so, three methods in total. My objects can be both named (via a global namespace) or anonymous.
<phoe>
OK - in my case it means, storing it in a slot of the object in question.
<phoe>
I have an issue with SETF DOCUMENTATION specialized on SYMBOL and MY-CLASS. If there is no instance of MY-CLASS globally named by SYMBOL, does the DOCUMENTATION protocol allow me to signal an error?
<phoe>
Asking because (setf (documentation 'foo 'function) "haha") seems to succeed even though no #'FOO is globally defined.
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<phoe>
And this complicates things for me because I need to account for documentation for objects that don't (yet) exist.
<beach>
Does it return "haha" when you do (documentation 'foo 'function) later?
<phoe>
yes
<beach>
Messy!
<phoe>
...on SBCL, that is
<phoe>
not on CCL!
<beach>
What does CCL do?
<phoe>
NIL
<phoe>
and it's conforming
<beach>
But it still allows you to SETF it?
<phoe>
oh wait a second...
<phoe>
yes
<beach>
Hmm.
<beach>
Very messy!
<phoe>
"An implementation is permitted to discard documentation strings at any time for implementation-defined reasons."
<phoe>
here's my escape hatch!
<beach>
Mhm.
<phoe>
my SETF function can allow the programmer to "set" the documentation string for an unknown object by immediately discarding it.
<beach>
I really think DOCUMENTATION is suboptimal in today's world.
<phoe>
I agree, but it exists
<beach>
But until we can agree upon something better, that's what we have.
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<heisig>
phoe: Sounds like you should use method combinations :)
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<phoe>
heisig: I actually have a slightly different objective
<phoe>
I want to write a class that describes a state machine, with state machine definitions, that can verify that all states are implemented, no unexpected state transitions occur, and finally compile the whole state machine into a big ole TAGBODY for efficiency
<phoe>
mecombs alone won't give me this last point
<phoe>
oh, and each state should be independently testable, too
<heisig>
I see. Of course all this would be doable with the MOP, but I fully understand why you don't want to go down that route :)
<phoe>
I mean, I *could* define my own GF class and my own method class and treat methods as state definitions and the GF as the whole state machine
<phoe>
and, honestly, since my state machines are going to be funcallable and since I'm already writing ENSURE-STATE-MACHINE-USING-CLASS et al, I think that by the end I'll arrive at a point where my solution will be somewhat easily transferrable to standard GFs
<heisig>
This is about your JSON parser, right?
<phoe>
yes
<phoe>
don't write JSON parsers, kids, they lead into the dark despair of MOP yak shaving
<heisig>
MOP yaks are the best yaks :)
<phoe>
said the guy specializing in MOP yaks
<heisig>
:D
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<kenran>
For someone kinda new to LISP (I've done some Clojure in the past), in what order would you recommend I read "On Lisp" and "Let Over Lamda"?
<beach>
On Lisp is not for beginners.
<phoe>
Practical Common Lisp -> On Lisp -> Let Over Lambda
<phoe>
or
<kenran>
I'm reading The Seasoned Schemer at the moment, as well as Practical Common Lisp, and plan to tackle one of the above right after.
<phoe>
Graham's ANSI Common Lisp -> On Lisp -> Let Over Lambda
<beach>
What about PAIP.
<phoe>
but I recommend PCL over ANSI CL
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<kenran>
Thanks!
<beach>
PCL is definitely better than ANSI Common Lisp since it talks about CLOS.
<beach>
minion: Please tell kenran about PAIP.
<minion>
kenran: PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
<beach>
kenran: That one is a great book as well.
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<kenran>
minion: Ah, nice. I knew what it is, but didn't know it was "open sourced"!
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<beach>
minion: Thanks!
<minion>
you're welcome
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<ck_>
what a world we live in, now even some characters are illegal
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<phoe>
hmmmmmmmm
* phoe
discovers the feud raging between :DEFAULT-INITARGS and SHARED-INITIALIZE
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<p_l>
A quick if non-trivial question: is there a way, assuming closer-mop present and given a superclass, to invoke a method on all instances of any subclass of said superclass? And gather them into a list
<_death>
well, there's sb-vm:list-allocated-objects if you're using SBCL (assuming it's something you want to do at the REPL)
<beach>
Wow, SBCL keeps a reference to each instance of a class?
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<_death>
beach: no, it traverses memory like the gc
<p_l>
Hmmm... On longer look, it seems my idea is a bit brain damaged, and shared allocation slot will be better
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<pfdietz>
phoe: which json parser is yours? Or is this a new one?
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<pfdietz>
When I compared CL json parsers, jsown was by far the fastest. And in some applications the speed of the json parser dominated the run time.
<phoe>
pfdietz: a new one; a quick hack version is at https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2212#2212 and it sports a TAGBODY that is way, WAY too large and non-unit-testable for my taste.
<phoe>
I want to use a single tagbody for performance reasons and then tune everything else I can
<phoe>
without sacrificing safety like jsown dows.
<phoe>
dows.
<phoe>
....does.
<pfdietz>
Interestingly, I wanted to get out a representation where attributes were keywords. Conversion of strings to keywords was a bottleneck, but it was greatly accelerated by short circuiting the common cases (for that json) with string-case.
<phoe>
I use a hack where attributes are gensyms
<phoe>
that should avoid memory leaks, too.
<phoe>
and I optimize calls like (get object "foo") into EQ hash table accesses.
<pfdietz>
In this case the application consuming the parsed json wanted keywords.
<phoe>
yes, I see
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<_death>
some years ago I used jsmn (a small json decoder in C) in some project.. that approach could be fast and nonconsing
<phoe>
for such a project, I'd prefer to avoid FFI if possible
<_death>
phoe: it would be easy to write it in Lisp
<phoe>
wait a second... how does it store output then? it accepts a preallocated array of tokens?
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<_death>
yes
<_death>
and there's no string copying involved
<_death>
it just uses indices into the original string
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<phoe>
hmmmm
<phoe>
I have no idea if that approach is viable in the Lisp world where people are used to manipulating objects that have identity, rather than using offsets into a string
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<_death>
well, for that approach there are the myriad existing json libraries :)
<phoe>
yes
<phoe>
then that's an even more extreme approach than what I am working on
<_death>
the project I used it for was a soft real-time thing, so I could've gone for allocating decoders.. but jsmn was small and nifty (could just copy over the header), and the json part was a tangential thing anyway
<phoe>
yes, I see
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<pfdietz>
Offsets into a string? Displaced arrays.
<pfdietz>
Granted, the header for those is allocated.
<slyrus>
varjag: thanks! Will review after xmas.
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<_death>
and that header might even be larger than the string ;)
<phoe>
^
<phoe>
that's the worrying part :D
<_death>
for the tokens you could let the user pass a vector and use vector-push-extend.. then the user can pre-allocate with a fill-pointer
<pfdietz>
If one breaks the big vector into small strings, one can recognize when the small string is a base-string. Annoying when there's a non-base char somewhere in a large string, forcing an inefficient representation.
<pfdietz>
I want an "almost base string" type that encodes such cases more efficiently.
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<varjag>
slyrus: cool
<varjag>
slyrus: there are two parts which are really unrelated: the thinning algo and the mod for ascii pnm writing
<varjag>
found that i did the latter ca. 2017 and forgot to submit
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<hendursaga>
Anyone know of a GraphViz dot *parser*? All I see are generators so far..
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<phoe>
Minor announcement: the IRC channel #clcs (short for Common Lisp Community Scribes) welcomes people interested in Common Lisp bookwriting - be it about sharing their own stuff, asking/performing reviews, or just chilling in general.
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<aeth>
well, more than that, for offsets into strings/sequences, nearly every function has a start/end or start1/end1/start2/end2
<aeth>
Not just displaced arrays.
<aeth>
I'd argue anything idiomatic has that.
<phoe>
yes, but still
<phoe>
I can see the appeal, but I can see the costs, too
<phoe>
pfdietz: almost base string... in-memory utf-8 strikes again
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<lonjil>
One day I want to coax a CL implementation to be UTF-8, including from the user POV for strings.
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<phoe>
How does one efficiently fetch a Nth character of a UTF-8 string?
<phoe>
(sorry about the non-Lisp question)
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<lonjil>
phoe: You don't. However, in the land of Unicode, you can't fetch the Nth character from a UTF-32 string either.
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<phoe>
wait, why? I thought utf32 was secure against that because you have constant character size
<lonjil>
You can fetch the Nth code point, but when you venture from European languages, often a character can be made of multiple code points.
<phoe>
oooooh
<phoe>
yes. I see.
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<aeth>
lonjil: but only SBCL with SB-UNICODE actually tries to implement the Unicode algorithms like e.g. sb-unicode:uppercase, which (1) has to apply to a string and not a character, (2) cannot round-trip, and (3) is locale-dependent
<lonjil>
Most diacritics for the Latin alphabet in Unicode has pre-composed forms, such as 'ö'. You can also do 'o' followed by the '¨' combiner, but for Latin no-one bothers with this. But outside of Latin most scripts in Unicode don't have pre-composed forms, and things are done by composing multiple code points.
<aeth>
The portable stuff like CHAR-UPCASE can't comply with Unicode because of the guarantees that the standard makes with characters...
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<lonjil>
aeth: yes. Though for strings I don't think any of that really matters w.r.t. UTF-32 vs UTF-8 strings. Though doubtlessly UTF-8 strings would break a lot of stuff.
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<phoe>
aeth: this reminds me
<phoe>
this typed slot sort of thing
<phoe>
have you ever published it as a separate library?
<aeth>
phoe: no, it's in my backlog but it has been glacial because 2020 is 2020
<phoe>
yes, I see
<aeth>
like I'm moving at 1/5 pace or whatever :-p
<phoe>
I can imagine, yes
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<aeth>
According to Gitlab I have 31 open issues and then I probably have another 40-60 or so I need to file.
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<aeth>
oh, hmm
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<aeth>
Does CFFI accept an integer everywhere where it also accepts a pointer?
<aeth>
Because I can't make an array of CFFI:FOREIGN-POINTERs, but I can make an array of (UNSIGNED-BYTE 64)s... or even just constantly do nonconsing arithmetic on the (UNSIGNED-BYTE 64)s, at least in SBCL when it doesn't leave the scope of the function.
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<phoe>
aeth: (cffi:make-pointer #x12345678)
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<aeth>
phoe: my game loop is non-consing.
<phoe>
oh. hmmm.
<aeth>
It's mostly fine, I just need a very clever way to do the matrix pointers. Or I can just precalculate them and shove them in a giant, T-typed array like I currently do.
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<aeth>
I suppose if I really had to, I could cheat with assembly because I only guarantee that it's nonconsing with the x86-64 SBCL...
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<ane>
is there a standard restart SLIME/SLY knows how to invoke for something like "use-value"? what sort of magic is needed there? it seems sometimes SLIME/SLY will ask for new values on certain kinds of restarts
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<phoe>
swank:*sldb-quit-restart* is for the Q button
<phoe>
as for USE-VALUE - it's no swank, AFAIK it's standard restart functionality
<phoe>
AFAIK all swank/slime do is rebinding *query-io* into something that can accept values from the minibuffer
<ane>
ok, thanks
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<phoe>
as for a "standard restart", what do you mean?
<phoe>
the swank/sly debugger uses the standard COMPUTE-RESTARTS function to get a list of all restarts
<ane>
I meant there's some way swank recognizes that this restart is interactive
<ane>
indeed, :interactive (lambda () (list (read *query-io*)) does the trick
<phoe>
it doesn't need to recognize anything
<ane>
yes, right, in fact it doesn't
<phoe>
it simply calls INVOKE-RESTART-INTERACTIVELY
<ane>
only the quit restart maybe?
<phoe>
the Q-key restarts are probably not interactive
<phoe>
ABORT restarts usually accept zero arguments
<phoe>
so INVOKE-RESTART-INTERACTIVELY is the same as INVOKE-RESTART in that case
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