<phoe>
beach: are you aware of "Documenting Protocols in CLOS: Keeping the Promise of Reuse" by John Collins?
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<phoe>
I just found out about the 1993 book edited by A. Paepcke, "Object-Oriented Programming: The CLOS Perspective"
<phoe>
and I'm reading it
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<lotuseater>
phoe: and how is your impression of the book?
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<phoe>
lotuseater: none, it's 2 AM for me
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<phoe>
will say more tomorrow
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<lotuseater>
sleep well :)
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<phoe>
thanks <3
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<beach>
phoe: No, I wasn't aware of that. I have the book, but haven't finished reading it.
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* adlai
wonders what exactly was meant earlier by a "desert island book", in the context of Common Lisp
<oni-on-ion>
"if you could take one [CL] book with you to a desert island, which would it be?"
<oni-on-ion>
with the implication that one may be there forever
<oni-on-ion>
*deserted island
<adlai>
by my understanding, even just the ANSI standard is too complex for a single book to encompass the whole thing, and answering "the ANSI specification, duh" is obviously a bannable offense
<oni-on-ion>
i would say something like "the source code for the implementation in question, give or take some hyperspec"
<adlai>
that's actually a good answer; I don't think the "desert island" question typically expects that your answer has an ISBN.
<oni-on-ion>
cant really know more than that about a piece of UI-less software that depends little on external resources/assets
<oni-on-ion>
deserted* =)
<oni-on-ion>
& true
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<edgar-rft>
on a deserted island it should be a thin book because you probably won't have much time to read before you die
<moon-child>
maybe there are coconuts
<moon-child>
and peanuts
<moon-child>
and water filters
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<flip214>
coconuts are more dangerous than sharks... and peanuts too, I guess. Haven't heard of someone suffocating on a water filter, though, so these sound safe.
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<adlai>
well that is one of the other possible interpretations for "desert island book", although it is more often called a cheatsheet
<adlai>
essentially ,a book that would be maximally helpful for someone who is unfamiliar with CL, or perhaps hasn't used it in decades, and must work without Internet access.
<adlai>
although, those are usually best when they are created in reference to another system, that is treated as familiar; or at least, limited to a specific context (e.g., the condition sysem, format strings, care and feeding of the generalized lambda list, etc)
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<adlai>
fwiw, the context from which I am familiar with the "desert island provision" question is one of aesthetic quality, rather than usefulness as a tool; thus the need for a disambiguation.
<Nilby>
I only read the draft ANSI spec, partially, and SICP maybe 20 years prior. That's kept me going for 15 years or so.
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<Nilby>
I was skeptical for a second, because "who's gonna do it?", but then I saw it's "let get Stas a macbook", so actually, yeah that'll work.
<jackdaniel>
Apple Bureya Dam :-)
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<phoe>
jackdaniel: I'll get mildly worried the moment I see Apple Oxygen
<phoe>
until then, I'm okay
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<jackdaniel>
my remark was more about apple's coxcombry with that name
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<phoe>
so is mine
<phoe>
;; except mine also contains overtones of megacorporate worry
<ck_>
don't worry we'll have crowdfunding to buy someone a few scuba bottles to port breathing to the new architecture in that case. Or maybe some Draegers, you know, better get the top model
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<Nilby>
Apple silicon "Runs a tight chip." they say. So does this mean the water sensor won't trigger and void your service contract?
<ck_>
I'm pretty sure there are no water exposure sensors on the wafers
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<Josh_2>
Is there an built in function I can use to find the common elements between a list of strings?
<phoe>
common elements, what do you mean?
<phoe>
could you give some example input and output?
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<Nilby>
Josh_2: Do you mean something like (intersection '("foo" "bar" "baz") '("this" "is" "foo") :test #'equal) => ("foo")
<aeth>
You can probably use SEARCH or a regex library like cl-ppcre, if that's what you mean.
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<aeth>
heh, I guess that was very vague if Nilby interpreted it as "common strings" and I interpreted it as "common substrings"
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<Nilby>
Playing the game of "guess that vague function"
<Josh_2>
aeth: common characters between strings
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<aeth>
just character counts? that can be a hash table in a hash table (with the string one using #'EQUAL as the :test)
<aeth>
(you wouldn't even need an inner string hash table if it's just present/not instead of counting them)
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<aeth>
Josh_2: just at a glance, if you replace the outer LOOP with a MAP NIL then you make it generic across all sequences
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<aeth>
Josh_2: And I think you can remove the branch (where you setf to 1 instead of incf) if you set the default value (the optional 3rd argument) of GETHASH to 0
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<aeth>
Josh_2: i.e. (incf (gethash char chars 0))
<Josh_2>
Oh I didn't know you could do that
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<Josh_2>
Thanks for pointing those improvements out :)
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<aeth>
you're welcome
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<banjomet>
so there are 443 people on #lisp, and only 316 on #clojure, yet I thought clojure was the popular one?
<banjomet>
on reddit /r/lisp has 29,992 and /r/clojure has 24,653
<lotuseater>
and if you go by statistics one of the best paid langs
<jackdaniel>
I think that statistics would be different for a channels #clojure-nand-lisp (and vice versa)
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<jackdaniel>
s/a //
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<banjomet>
the one thing I really want to use lisp for is js stuff, and I have been doing research and it seems like jscl is only a recent endeavor that is missing a little bit to be complete. that's the only thing pushing me towards clojure (really clojurescript).
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<banjomet>
using the debugger for js-world would be so awesome
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<lotuseater>
isn't there also a compiler named JACL?
<aeth>
banjomet: My guess is... More people want to use Common Lisp (and do so as a hobby), but more people get paid to use Clojure (and so Clojure will probably be more popular on things like StackOverflow)
<aeth>
I, for one, wouldn't want to be tied to Oracle's JVM...
<aeth>
(I guess ClojureScript is a thing, though.)
<aeth>
banjomet: As for CL in the browser, my guess is that you won't get a complete one until WASM is capable of hosting a complete one.
<lotuseater>
have no idea, but what if using ABCL to wrap things around clojurescript for using the debugger or something else?
<banjomet>
aeth, why would you do that instead of using the vm for js? I see projects like that and I guess I just don't understand what prompts it.
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<aeth>
banjomet: There are a dozen or so complete Scheme->JS because Scheme is small so a merely "complete" Scheme doesn't give you much. There are two or so incomplete CL->JS because CL is large, so it's hard to be complete. ClojureScript is a bit of an exception as far as this trend goes, but you probably can't use (m)any Clojure libraries with it.
<aeth>
You could probably implement enough of a subset of CL in JS to bootstrap the rest, but that'd still be a lot of work.
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<aeth>
Now, a WASM CL could even give you some degree of CFFI to C-on-WASM, so you would be able to run almost any library, even ones with C dependencies.
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<lotuseater>
it's paradox JS was first prototyped in CL
<aeth>
lotuseater: well, it's easier to write a small language in a large language than the other way around
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<aeth>
JS-in-CL or Scheme-in-CL or Lua-in-CL, etc., would all be way easier than the other direction.
<MichaelRaskin>
ECMAScript6 is _also_ not too small. of course…
<lotuseater>
yes you're right aeth :) but some of the inconsistencies of the running language let me question it has been designed by someone who knows computer science
<aeth>
MichaelRaskin: Well, yes, but the JS-in-CL is very ancient, to the point where writing one from scratch would probably be a worthwhile project.
<aeth>
Probably 10+ years
<aeth>
The Scheme in CL (excluding my own incomplete project, of course) is Pseudoscheme and was an incomplete R4RS from the early 90s (or late 80s?) when Scheme was even smaller than today.
<aeth>
I don't think there's a Lua in CL, but it should be an easy project, to the point where I might write one at some point.
<banjomet>
yeah but the size is the main reason. instead of huge images you would be shipping around incredibly small things.
<banjomet>
I think, I am playing around with jscl right now to verify
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<aeth>
(I mentioned Lua because there is a Lisp-in-Lua, but it's far from being as featureful as a full CL implementation)
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<aeth>
banjomet: Yes, but the small size of something like JSCL is at the cost of full standards conformance, or at the very least conformance to de facto standards that everyone follows, but that aren't strictly required (like having octet arrays)
<aeth>
(every major implementation except CLISP also has single-float and double-float arrays, which would also be sacrificed in a CL->JS implementation)
<aeth>
Ideally, you'd probably have both, using a simple Lispy JS to do the JS parts that WASM can't do, while relying on the full CL image for most of the logic.
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<aeth>
"Lispy JS" is more of what Parenscript is trying to do, though, not JSCL
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<banjomet>
jscl checks in at 1.6 megabytes but I am having trouble figuring out how to run the ansi tests
<banjomet>
for the js compiled output
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<aeth>
Imo, someone needs to write more-than-ansi tests for all of the extra things someone expects from an implementation...
<aeth>
There are other, harder, things, like... does DECLARE type check? Does :type in slots in DEFSTRUCT typecheck on creation and setting? In DEFCLASS?
<aeth>
Technically, my test also tests that single-float and double-float are distinct, so that doesn't have to be tested.
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<aeth>
maybe a "large fixnum" test, too, e.g. (>= (log (- most-positive-fixnum most-negative-fixnum) 2) 60)
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<aeth>
If there's no reliable unicode test, maybe a combination of (> (log char-code-limit 2) 8) and a few code-char/char-code to verify a Unicode mapping.
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<thmprover>
OK, I'm starting to wonder if I'm not using package names effectively.
<thmprover>
For example, instead of defining constants prefixed with "axiom-", I could have an "axiom" package, and define axioms within it.
<thmprover>
So instead of "axiom-add-implies", I'd have "axiom:add-implies".
<beach>
Definitely.
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<Alfr>
thmprover, not sure axiom is a good name for that package. There's a CAS name Axiom in CL and i suspect that it provides an axiom package.
<beach>
Ah, yes, choose a unique name. And then use package-local nicknames.
<thmprover>
Alfr: true, it's just the example I'm looking at, at the moment; I need to distinguish different foundations, so I'll probably use a different name.
<thmprover>
"fol-axiom" is probably the package I'll be using
<beach>
For example, I prefix all my SICL package names with SICL-.
<beach>
But I use ENV as a local nickname for SICL-ENVIRONMENT.
<pyc>
What exactly is the 'ielm-mode-hook? I have added 'enable-paredit-mode to this and only this hook. I want to know where exactly I can see the paredit working when bound to this hook?
<mfiano>
thmprover: Yes, it's important to use package names that nobody else is using, so that there are no conflicts if people depend on your code. 2 packages of the same name cannot coexist in a Lisp image, which is what package-local nicknames solve, assuming your global name is unique.
<mfiano>
pyc: Try #emacs
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<thmprover>
Yes, unique package names are good, I was just using a minimal example.
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<aeth>
phoe: the only problem with that is that a is usually alexandria
<mfiano>
That's not a problem. It's local
<phoe>
aeth: what mfiano said
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<phoe>
call it alpn or whatever
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<mfiano>
One may indeed want a to be used for something else if it is more ubiquitous
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<aeth>
phoe: imo, one char should be reserved for util libraries, since you don't really need more context than that.
<aeth>
with a being alexandria.
<aeth>
Of course, you can do whatever you want, but just because you can, doesn't mean you should
<mfiano>
That is an odd restriction
<phoe>
aeth: you know
<phoe>
your package, your rules
<phoe>
that's the whole point :D
<phoe>
that's not an invitation to write unreadable code; more like, make full use of local nicknames.
<aeth>
I mean, you can name variables whatever you want without conflict because of packages, but there are generally are style guidelines for those, too
<phoe>
there are no guidelines for PLNs; is it time for creating any?
<aeth>
If I see "a", I'll assume "alexandria", in general
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<aeth>
Probably the rest of the one char ones are safe. Probably.
<phoe>
aeth: it could be a for aurum
<phoe>
which stands for golden-utils
<aeth>
way less common, though
<phoe>
with PLNs, one cannot assume anymore
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<mfiano>
I personally use U for golden-utils (because it re-exports alexandria), and currently A for my "Actor" package
<phoe>
that's the whole point
<mfiano>
So to each their own
<aeth>
phoe: I mean, if I see "i", which can exist because of package-local-variable-names and lexical scope, I'm still going to assume it's an integer being iterated over in a loop
<phoe>
aeth: uh wait a second
<phoe>
that would be a package prefix
<phoe>
so i:i or something?...
<mfiano>
Before I see any package qualifier, I first consult the package instead of blindly assuming.
<phoe>
^
<phoe>
or just M-. it and see where that's from
<aeth>
phoe: my point is, a:foo to me contextually means something for the same reason that foo:i contextually means something
<aeth>
even though it can, technically, be anything
<aeth>
s/foo:i/foo::i/
<phoe>
aeth: yes, I see; still, PLNs are the reason why "A" is not just another nickname for Alexandria
<phoe>
they're package-local, so my instinct is to see what they refer to in the package before I assume.
<aeth>
phoe: Yes, but, a:foo can be anything in the context of package foobar just like foobar::i can be anything in the context of package foobar, but just because it can be anything doesn't mean it will be anything.
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<aeth>
Technically possible vs. convention
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<phoe>
yes, I understand
<phoe>
and I have to admit that "A" is my usual PLN for Alexandria
<phoe>
but that's in my case, other people gonna have a different configuration.
<aeth>
Since alexandria is by far the most commonly used A package name, I would, all things being equal, assume A=ALEXANDRIA and it would be unusual in other contexts, just like FOO::I would be unusual if you used it for something other than an iterated integer
<aeth>
Although, yes, you can do it
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<aeth>
And there are some other reasonable niche cases where i might make sense, e.g. some mathy stuff that use i j k in the original mathy context, rather than iteration
<aeth>
I don't think there are any other single-character cases where such a package local nickname would dominate like a for alexandria. Maybe, for two characters, "re" for "cl-ppcre" since there's only really one popular regex library.
<phoe>
φ
<phoe>
;; for phoe-toolbox, obviously
* mfiano
does not use alexandria directly so has the freedom to use such a common character for more appropriate packages.
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<aeth>
phoe: nah, that's for calculating the golden ratio
<phoe>
but yeah, if golden-utils reexports alexandria then his a: is like alexandria on steroids
<Inline>
metallic ratios
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<phoe>
aeth: I mean like a package name instead of a function name
<phoe>
φ:φ would calculate the golden ratio
<aeth>
right
<mfiano>
I also shadow global nicknames with pln's in some cases, which works.
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<Inline>
not sure if i'll discover ametallic ratios
<Inline>
plastic ratio
<Inline>
lol
<aeth>
phoe: while φ:+φ+ would be the golden ratio in double precision
<mfiano>
Such as verbose defining a global nickname of V. That gets in the way frequently
<phoe>
aeth: yes
<lotuseater>
don't forget φ is also used for Euler's phi function :)
<aeth>
lotuseater: that's euler:
<aeth>
sorry, euler:φ
<phoe>
lotuseater: well we have a conflict, euler:φ and golden-ratio:φ
<phoe>
and there's φ:φ which signals an error because it's ambiguous
<phoe>
mfiano: yes, verbose might want to remove it someday
<lotuseater>
oh there's a package named euler?
<mfiano>
I think shinmera said something about too late to do that now with backward-compat and all
<aeth>
lotuseater: I mean, we're joking, but yes
<aeth>
lotuseater: I have a euler-lib to make all of my Project Euler solutions trivial
<lotuseater>
:D
<aeth>
It's not public, though, because I literally just use the Project Euler solutions as the unit tests.
<lotuseater>
i should port more of my hs math libs sometime
<aeth>
high school math?
<lotuseater>
funny :D no, Haskell. some "higher" mathematics
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<aeth>
yes... the context was name conflicts so I couldn't resist
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<lotuseater>
hehe okay
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<lotuseater>
but the most is also for project euler, hope to finish some more exercises till end of the year
<lotuseater>
of someone wants we could exchange keys
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<phoe>
so, actually
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<phoe>
Xach: I think we will need your assistance with this one
<Xach>
You can build things as well as I can!
<Xach>
Possibly better!
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<mfiano>
I think he wants you to try rebuilding all of Quicklisp with that modification to Verbose, to get your pretty failure report :)
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<Bike>
minion?
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<Bike>
hm. phoe left me some notes but they're not appearing
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<Bike>
ah, "memo for Bike:"
<dbotton__>
I asked this once before but maybe someone else knows, is there a way to launch a task with lparallels that disregards its result? (Ie just like a make-thread but uses one of lparallel's worker threads)
<phoe>
Xach: !
<phoe>
how can I build things the way you build things though?
<lotuseater>
speaking of lparallel, how much threads do you normally declare for the kernel?
<phoe>
dbotton__: I don't really know; I've always just done the wait-for-result thingy or however it is called
<phoe>
lotuseater: as many as required; not more than logical cores on my machine
<phoe>
also, mfiano's right - I want to see how many patches will be required and to what repositories when we incompatibly change Verbose
<Bike>
well, whatevs. phoe, i don't know if this is your day off or not, but for when it's not, unwinding through every frame is like, fine, with ZCEH. that's not the slow part
<phoe>
Bike: well it was supposed to be
<phoe>
maybe we should move it off #lisp though
<lotuseater>
yeah more than physical wouldn't be parallel
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<phoe>
Xach: OK. This sounds good
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<dbotton__>
Lotuseater, ideally 1 worker task per core
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<phoe>
where/query gendl
<phoe>
uh I mean
<phoe>
nice weather, isn't it
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* Alfr
wonders how often do's implicit tagbody is actually used.
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<Xach>
Alfr: 1000 times per second in some environments
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<Alfr>
Hmpf. Really should've asked for the portion of DOs which have tags with corresponding GOs.
<Xach>
That would be an interesting statistic. I don't use it that often but when you want to skip or retry an interation it is great to have available.
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<Xach>
(interation?)
<Alfr>
Essentially what most other languages call break?
<Xach>
Alfr: yes, but potentially way more flexible.
<Alfr>
Was thinking of this before. But also did never miss this in CL.
<_death>
break would be return.. maybe continue (go end-of-body)
<Alfr>
_death, you're right. :)
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<Xach>
DOLIST + WITH-SIMPLE-RESTART makes it easy to have a processing loop with easy options to "skip this one" or "retry this one"
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