jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | offtopic --> #lispcafe
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<slondr> Hey all, is there an easy-to-use package to play musical notes?
<slondr> Like, I want to do something along the lines of (play 'C) and hear a C note from my computer
<Xach> slondr: i wish i could suggest something, but it's not an area i know anything about when it comes to CL.
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<Xach> and those who might know may be asleep! but maybe a q on reddit or stackoverflow would get an answer eventually.
* Xach thinks back to GWBASIC programs that could do this easily decades ago
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
<slondr> Xach: ah, thanks for the insight at least
<moon-child> slondr: nothing that I know of, but I bet you could build something pretty easily off of oss
<Xach> moon-child: "easily"!!
<moon-child> relatively
<moon-child> sin waves are easy to construct. A4 is (usually) 440Hz, and you scale by increments of 2^1/12
<moon-child> s/increments/factors
<beach> It is easier to use the MIDI interface for that.
<moon-child> oss has a midi interface?
<slondr> certainly seems a little more involved than just (play-note "C") etc
<slondr> or "C4"
<beach> I didn't know OSS was a requirement.
<beach> slondr: I am sure there are systems that use the MIDI interface. OpenMusic must be doing something like that.
<moon-child> didn't mean to imply that it was; just thought that you were. What midi interface were you referring to?
<beach> /dev/midi
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<beach> Oh, maybe that's just input.
<beach> In which case you need to use something like Timidity.
<moon-child> I think that's for interacting with midi hardware devices; both input and output, but not a regular speaker
<beach> Let me check what I did for Gsharp. I know it was very simple.
<slondr> beach: that seems *way* more involved than (play-note "C4")
<beach> moon-child: You are right. I wrote a MIDI file and started Timidity.
<slondr> Although if there's nothing that does precisely what I'd like, it may be worth the extra effort
<beach> slondr: It is one of those things that are easier to write than to specify.
<beach> slondr: What's the volume? How long does the note last? What's the sound?
<beach> slondr: If all you want is a sine wave, it's a 5-line program.
<moon-child> slondr: a little googling suggests https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/snd/snd/clm.html
<slondr> moon-child: yeah I found that in my searching, it's very mechanical though
<edgar-rft> slondr: don't know how much it is maintained but looks reasonably simple -> https://www.cliki.net/sb-simple-audio
<beach> slondr: mechanical?
<edgar-rft> slondr: another alternative would be -> https://filonenko-mikhail.github.io/cl-portaudio/
<slondr> edgar-rft: I'll try that one I guess
<slondr> I'm disappointed that this isn't a solved problem really
<beach> It is.
<beach> OpenMusic is a solution.
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<edgar-rft> slondr: a complete CL realtime synth is -> http://incudine.sourceforge.net/
<slondr> My use case is I have some other function that generates note sequences, eg (E G B A C), I just want to hear what that sequence sounds like, preferably without defining instruments or dealing with frequences and all that other stuff
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<slondr> Perhaps I am just lazy
<beach> slondr: That's a very specific use case that you can't expect to have a pre-existing library for.
<beach> slondr: Normally, you would want to know the instrument, the duration, the volume, etc.
<fiddlerwoaroof> slondr: common music has something like that, I think
<fiddlerwoaroof> But I think they switched from CL to scheme a while ago
<slondr> beach: something like this exists for python I believe
<beach> Good to know.
<slondr> moon-child: sadly the download link for CLM 404s, and afaict it's not in quicklisp
<moon-child> slondr: there are two links; the second works fine for me
<slondr> oh! I hadn't noticed that
<slondr> thanks moon-child
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<ecm> How do I make emacs indent common lisp code properly ?
<beach> Use SLIME.
<beach> Specifically, the slime-indentation module, but I believe it is on by default now.
<ecm> I have a slime instance running, should I expect it to indent it normally ?
<beach> I think so,yes.
<beach> It is not perfect, but it's pretty good.
<beach> Are you having difficulties?
<ecm> It's not indenting sub-functions under a function like it would with let or some other built-in function
<beach> Indentation is important mostly for the buffer in Lisp mode.
<beach> What is a "sub-function"?
<ecm> sorry, not just a sub-function, any expression
<ecm> it indents it to the line below the function name
<beach> Are you sure your buffer is in Lisp mode?
<ecm> unlike let where it indents it 2 spaces after the start
<beach> Did you visit a file named xxx.lisp?
<ecm> yes I did
<ecm> I can confirm it's in lisp-mode
<ecm> and I have a slime instance running
<beach> You need to paste the code. Try the plaster.tymoon.eu
<beach> s/the//
<beach> ecm: Did you manage to paste your code there?
<ecm> need a second
<ecm> this is what emacs indents the code as
<beach> Erm, do you have TABs in there?
<ck_> oh, there's tabs in it
<beach> It looks funny.
<beach> ecm: Please untabify it first.
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<ecm> like so ?
<beach> No, untabify means that you replace TABs by spaces.
<ecm> oh got it
<ck_> ecm: emacs has a command called 'untabify' -- M-x untabify
<beach> Now you need to indent the buffer again, and then untabify it.
<ck_> which will probably produce the exact same text as before though
<ecm> ok done
<ck_> like I predicted ;) your emacs is set to indent using tabs, that's the issue you need to address first
<beach> So what's the complaint?
<beach> Ah, yes, still TABs.
<ecm> I expected crt:with-windows to be indented 2 spaces from crt:with-screen
<beach> ecm: You need to do C-x h and then M-x untabify.
<ck_> try M-x customize-variable indent-tabs-mode, set it to off -- that's my guess
<ecm> beach: now ?
<beach> Ah, that depends on the definition of the macro WITH-SCREEN.
<beach> OK, let's see. Have you loaded the system that defines crt:xxx?
<ecm> yes
<ecm> I have
<beach> Hmm.
<beach> Let me see if I can reproduce it. What's the system?
<ecm> croatoan, an ncurses library
<ecm> I've loaded it in slime already
<beach> But the fact that you did that on the first line doesn't mean it is loaded.
<beach> OK, let me try it then...
<ecm> I typed "(ql:quickload :croatoan)" inthe SLIME REPL
<ecm> if that's what you mean
<beach> yes, that's what I meant.
<ecm> When I do a C-M-q it indents it like that
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<beach> Works for me.
<beach> So, how exactly did you create this code? How did you start emacs, SLIME, and how did you create the buffer?
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<ecm> I opened the file as normal, I've added a slime-company hook for the file, I then started slime, loaded croatoan, compiled the file and did a C-M-q expecting to indent properly
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<beach> Er, C-M-Q?
<beach> C-x h then C-M=\
<beach> Sorry, C-x h then C-M-\
<ck_> what's wrong with cmq? "C-M-q (translated from <escape> C-q) runs the command indent-sexp"
<beach> I guess if you do it on the first opening parenthesis, it works.
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<beach> But only for one expression.
<ck_> I thought that was what this was about, my mistake if not.
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<beach> I may be wrong of course.
<ecm> I restarted emacs just in-case
<beach> ecm: Did you do C-M-q when the cursor was before (defun?
<ecm> I did it both ways
<ecm> inside (defun and on the (
<beach> What about C-x h and then C-M-\
<beach> Does that work?
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<ecm> ok it just worked once I restarted
<ecm> thanks
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<ecm> beach: both work now
<beach> Hmm. Disconcerting! OK, good luck.
<ck_> did you change indent-tabs-mode in the meantime?
<ecm> no, I did not
<ecm> am I not supposed to be using tabs for indentation ?
<ck_> I think it is the consensus to use spaces today
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<beach> Yeah, everything looks better that way.
<beach> Git diffs, paste sites, etc.
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<puchacz> hi, to play with ecl (I am interested in android), I need to sudo apt get ecl first, to get any version, then compile the newest one and follow some tutorials?
<puchacz> the manual says ecl should be compiled with ecl
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<spoeplau> I'm trying to do (defctype foo :pointer) with several types '(foo bar baz), and I'm looking for a way to do something like (dolist (name '(foo bar baz)) (defctype name :pointer)). It doesn't quite work like this because "name" isn't evaluated, and the best I've been able to come up with so far is to define my own macro and then call it just once. Is there a better way?
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<_death> the macro is a way.. but if it's just that simple form it's overkill in my opinion
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<spoeplau> _death: I have some more complex cases too, that one was just to illustrate what I'm trying to do
<ralt> spoeplau: defctype is a macro I assume
<ralt> You can macroexpand it to see if something else could be done
<spoeplau> ralt: yep, it's from cffi. I'll have a look...
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<_death> spoeplau: you can define a META macro, something like (defmacro meta (form) (let ((generate (gensym))) `(macrolet ((,generate () ,form)) (,generate))))
<_death> then (meta `(progn ,@(mapcar (lambda (name) `(defctype ,name :pointer)) '(foo bar baz))))
<Bike> huh. that's a new one.
<_death> some years ago discussion here resulted in a METALIST operator as well, https://github.com/death/gnusdumps/blob/master/driver/main.lisp#L121
<spoeplau> oh, interesting, thanks
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<_death> Bike: I think I first saw in a Kent Pitman post
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* edgar-rft saw a Kent Pitman ghost
<_death> with METALIST it would be (metalist (name) "Define a foreign pointer type alias for NAME." `(defctype ,name :pointer) ((foo) (bar) (baz)))
<ralt> _death: I didn't realize you were the author of the dbus CL library
<ralt> small world
<_death> ralt: ;)
<ralt> I've used that library in anger :P
<_death> ralt: I remember you had some pull requests.. nice to hear that it worked for you, I wrote it for a thing that became irrelevant t me a year or two later.. the publish part is still broken design
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<flip214> Is there a library that can translate a SVG to an CL-PDF form, like a macro? translating a SVG to a PDF via eg. inkscape is relatively costly (in CPU terms), so directly writing a PDF would be much better
<frodef> Is there any kind ov SVG renderer in CL? Seems to me a substantial undertaking.
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<flip214> frodef: I can read a PDF in inkscape, and save as SVG. SVG is text-only and very similar to PS and PDF, so the typical 99% should be an easy AST => AST translation.
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<flip214> If I can get the SVG => CL-PDF transformation, I can "easily" get a PDF and write "compatible" data from CL.
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<frodef> flip214: To my knowledge, SVG is a substantial vector-graphics DOM, and "translating" to PDF I suspect is infeasible, beyond rendering to a raster image. Except perhaps a carefully selected subset of SVG.
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<frodef> (I could be wrong, but this is my understanding.)
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<frodef> If you have Inkscape save a PDF into SVG, do you get a raster image, or actual SVG?
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<flip214> an actual svg.
<flip214> and cl-pdf as well as svg have primitives like matrix-transform, text, choose font, etc. so a translation seems feasible.
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<flip214> "Hold my beer"
<frodef> Well.. I won't hold your breath ;-)
<frodef> would be cool though.
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<Xach> For simple SVGs, vecto could render to PNG.
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<Xach> It's not automatic, you would need to parse the paths in the SVG. But the drawing part after that is not too tricky.
<Xach> And I'm defining "simple SVGs" as "ones the Vecto image model could support" to make it easy
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<mfiano> is it specified anywhere which accessor will be invoked? (defclass foo () ((%a1 :reader a :initform 1) (%a2 :reader a :initform 2)))
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<Inline> the last one ?
<_death> probably unspecified
<Inline> welp
<Inline> sequential ?
<Inline> like it generating two defmethods one after the other ?
<Inline> and the last one is the winning ?
<mfiano> unspecified is what i assumed after searching. thanks
<_death> Inline: the question is whether you're willing to bet that all implementations follow your logic
<Inline> nope
<Inline> i won't bet on that
<Inline> lol
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<_death> my first thought was that if the spec had anything to say about it, it would be to signal an error
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<puchacz> jackdaniel, I started playing with ECL:) if I make it run my application, does it mean that it will be possible to create a library / executable from it?
<puchacz> if I carefully track all (load... ) forms outside normal package management
<shka_> puchacz: yes
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<puchacz> great, thanks :
<puchacz> :)
<shka_> it can make static lib, shared lib, executable
<shka_> i never tried to build something that loads anything outside of asdf though
<puchacz> shka_: yes, I read it today for the first time, and I started playing. but I know from experience that some files are loaded in a non-standard way, e.g. sly contribs. and I sinned as well by using bare (load ) in few places.
<puchacz> so I will need to track it all, but when I do it, you are saying there are no obstacles to creating a binary
<shka_> puchacz: well, if you build just asdf system, sly will be ignored
<puchacz> so I am happy
<shka_> IIRC
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<shka_> it is slightly different from save-lisp-and-die in this regard
<puchacz> yes, save-lisp-and-die just saves everything that is in memory, no matter how it was loaded.
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<shka_> exactly
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<shka_> while ECL build-system, as far i can tell, works almost like a UNIX make
<puchacz> but sly is fine too, I know how to force load all contribs. there are also programmatic calls to the compiler, I know for sure this is how web templating works (it creates functions that print out web pages)
<shka_> at the runtime?
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<puchacz> yes, once
<puchacz> so I am good too
<shka_> hmmm
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<puchacz> I do it in sbcl before dumping the image, so I don't need to deploy my core with template files
<shka_> calling compile at the runtime is almost as evil as eval
<shka_> :-)
<shka_> anyway, glad you have a solution at hand
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<puchacz> who says there is no eval somewhere? I did not add eval (for what I remember), but it may be there somewhere :)
<shka_> heh
<shka_> eval should work fine though
<shka_> in fact, i think that compile should work as well
<shka_> IIRC ECL compile does not compile to C, but to ad bytecode
<puchacz> but you say as long as it runs with "development mode" startup (with quicklisp etc), I will be able to create the right sequence of binary files.
<shka_> as long as you build systems defined with asdf i think it should be fine
<jackdaniel> you may compile a "bundle" straiggt from asd definitions
<shka_> right
<shka_> exactly this
<puchacz> 95% is, other 5% are manual calls to load and oddities like sly's contribs
<jackdaniel> im on phone
<puchacz> hello :)
<jackdaniel> hi
<jackdaniel> manual has a description of compilation
<jackdaniel> with pictures! ;)
<puchacz> yes, I read it today for the first time. I am impressed :) and is it true that if I can make ECL run my application, there exists the right sequence of binary files that be produced to make my application binary?
<shka_> puchacz: i also think that load may also work
<shka_> if paths are resolved correctly
<jackdaniel> I dont understand the question
<shka_> jackdaniel: puchacz has a system that calls LOAD at the runtime
<shka_> IIRC in such case ECL will simply use bytecode compiler
<puchacz> yes, but I can make it call all loads on startup, this is what I do for sbcl save-and-die
<jackdaniel> that's not a problem, load does not compile
<shka_> oh, ok
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<shka_> makes sense
<shka_> so it should just wokr
<puchacz> okay, great, thanks :)
<jackdaniel> but as shka_ said, compiler is available at all times
<puchacz> sure, then it should work, whatever hacks I discover in the code
<jackdaniel> if gcc is absent, call (ext:install-bytecodes-compiler)
<jackdaniel> should be a restart I suppose
<shka_> yeah, performance can be hard to predict in such case though
<shka_> but it may not even matter
<shka_> anyway, have a good evening
<puchacz> thanks, you too
<jackdaniel> \o
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<ralt> oh hey
<ralt> I never tried to make a static binary with ECL
<ralt> I think
<puchacz> I saw examples - you can even create a binary for arm/android
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<stargazesparkle> I've been reading the lisp book someone sent me a few days ago and just wow
<stargazesparkle> It's amazing how I managed to get myself as far as I did without considering what it was I was doing or why I was doing it
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