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<thmprover>
luis: ah, I should be more precise, I mean a Symbolics Lisp Machine. I've been looking for material about the Ivory processor without much success :(
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<thmprover>
luis: Thanks for the links, though :) I actually just studied and took notes on them this morning.
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<thmprover>
Gah, it turns out I was looking in the wrong places on bitsavers.org! I should have looked at the I-machine's documentation for its macroinstruction set
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<zdm>
beach: I feel excluded, its not morning here.
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<beach>
zdm: Oh, you need to look into UGT, Universal Greeting Time.
<zdm>
beach: Heh, I like that
<beach>
zdm: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
<zdm>
beach: I've been before but never regularly, so I might as well be new.
<beach>
I see.
<beach>
So what brings you to #lisp?
<zdm>
To passively learn as I have the buffer open from time to time, and maybe ask some questions when I start learning CL again, though maybe that'd be more appropriate for #clschool.
<beach>
I wouldn't worry about that. You will be told if you prompt too lengthy discussions about trivial stuff.
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<White_Flame>
discussions about trivial-* stuff are fine ;)
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<ioa>
(you might need a second pass to extract the punctuation symbols)
<ioa>
^ with split-sequence
<ioa>
hi ldb
<nij>
yeah might need a twist. thanks ioa :D
<nij>
good morning ldb
<pve>
nij: for tokenizing natural language you might want to look at some NLP library
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<pve>
nij: When you say "sentence parsing", you actually mean "tokenization", parsing is a more complicated task.
<ldb>
so, as for the "not advocating use of terminal" thing, is it possible that, if I have another non Lisp program designed for terminal, I can now redirect the IO to SLY?
<ldb>
by communicating in appropriate sexp protocal
<nij>
pve: what is the general meaning of sentence parsing then ?
<nij>
ldb: i think you can redirect the IO by using uiop/run-program
<nij>
ah i'm not sure about I but O yes
<nij>
But do you have a terminal program that has I? Is that a repl or a server or somthing?
<ldb>
nij: it is an interactive repl
<nij>
If not from lisp or the terminal that's running it, how would you interact with it?
<pve>
nij: a process that results in one or more parse trees, or for shallow parsing a sequence of chunks ("chunking")
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<nij>
pve: hm does sound complicated
<ldb>
nij: it is possible for me to change that program to adapt my need
<pve>
nij: depends entirely on what you want to accomplish, maybe split-sequence is enough for your task
<nij>
ldb: yeah then you can definitely use lisp to communicate with your program . not sure what's the cleanest way to do it.
<nij>
pve: I think so too. With some help of cl-ppcre. M trying :)
* ldb
racket is notoriously slow btw
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<nij>
racket lang?
<ldb>
yes, worse than python in (for performance) my opinion
<nij>
how about cl?
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<ldb>
ccl is good for interactive development
<ldb>
sbcl usually takes longer to compile code, but is much better on numeric
<nij>
comparing to python? speedwise
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<ldb>
usually, you cannot feel the difference between cl or python if just eval some expresions in repl
<ldb>
but for racket, you can feel that 0.1 sec delay after pressed return key
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<ldb>
it's that worse
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<beach>
nij: I often see people say that Python is 50 times slower than SBCL for executing code.
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<beach>
nij: drmeister once showed us a comparison between programming languages, concerning the energy used per computation unit. Common Lisp was pretty good and Python was really bad. I don't know how they did their measurements, though.
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<beach>
Oh, it's a paper: "Energy Efficiency across Programming Languages".
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<nij>
My code is awful: repeating a lot, not functional, unclean deconstructive method.. https://bpa.st/VE4F4 Any suggestion?
<nij>
I'm tempted to use macro, to abstract the syntax. But I think there's a better way to do it with functions.
<phoe>
what's string-?
<_death>
looks like you want REDUCE
<nij>
(string- "I have a dog" "a") => "I hve dog"
<phoe>
oooh, okay - then as _death mentioned, (reduce #'string- result ...)
<nij>
OH that's a way. Note taken.
<nij>
But to do it more functionally.. this is just to apply a sequence of functions on some element:
<beach>
Or you can use LOOP if you prefer that.
<_death>
but instead of reducing, you may REMOVE-IF
<nij>
(f4 (f3 (f2 (f1 x))))
<nij>
beach: no no loop.. at least for now
<beach>
*sigh*
<nij>
so im thinking of using (magic-apply f_ '(1 2 3 4) x)
<nij>
beach: :(
<phoe>
nij: a sequence of functions? you can use alexandria:compose for that
<phoe>
but, uh
<phoe>
REDUCE is already as functional as you can get, completely zero side effects
<nij>
ok i will use reduce
<nij>
I just think that there's a general pattern lacking behind
<phoe>
because I assumed that you wanted to keep '(f1 f2 f3 f4) to be a list of symbols, and you want x to be arbitrary data
<phoe>
s/assumed/assume/
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<ioa>
I'd like to check and add miniKanren embeddings in common-lisp to Cliki.net but I'm not sure where to add them. First I thought in "unification" but miniKanren is more than that, it's full relational programming. Any suggestions? (cc. phoe) In their website (minikanren.org) they say "miniKanren is an embedded Domain Specific Language for logic programming."
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<ioa>
FYI this is a list of Kanren implementations: http://minikanren.org/#implementations There are 5 in common-lisp, although the first one already seems abandoned. :( (checking the rest now)
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<ioa>
The 2nd one is in "trying to implement miniKanren stage". Can't find the 3rd one. The 4th one just has 2 commits 3 years ago and no comments anywhere, will have to try if it works. And the 5th one is using the first one. :( :( :( This is sad.
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<ioa>
I guess then I'll have to try them out first, to see which ones work. Then I'll think about adding info to Cliki. Any opinions on my original question are welcome!
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<albusp>
I'm trying to (require) one of my modules from a file, and it had been already (load)ed from somewhere else, but I get the "don't know how to require" error. Should I try (provide)ing all my module files at the top, so that (require) can find them?
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<_death>
better to use asdf
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<_death>
require is implementation-dependent, so we can't say much about your issue without knowing which implementation you use.. that's one of its issues
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<albusp>
_death: I've heard that. Also I've read somewhere that if filename is same as the module you don't need to provide?
<albusp>
_death: this case is sbcl
<_death>
the sbcl manual has a paragraph about behavior of require (in section 7.9)
<_death>
nobody really uses it, so I'm not sure why you want to
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<albusp>
Also, CLHS notes that provide and require are deprecated. Is CLHS pointing people to seek an alternative? Is ASDF the obvious answer?
<_death>
in the last decade or so, yes, asdf is pretty much the obvious answer
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<Nilby>
albusp: I reccomend installing Quicklisp, copying a simple projects .asd file, altering for your thing, and symbolic linking it into ~/quicklisp/local-projects. If you're interested, later you could read the rather convoluted asdf manual.
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<Nilby>
or if you're just starting with simple things you can get by with just manually usaing "load" and/or compile-file
<_death>
the other day I saw someone post to the LISA (project from 2000 that's similar to production systems from the 1980s, with certainty factors and all ;) mailing list about creating a fork.. I check it out and nostalgy overflows as I open https://github.com/gpwwjr/LISA/blob/main/misc/asdf.lisp
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<albusp>
thanks Nilby. I have this simple structure, a couple of packages with some hierarchy, and don't want to load the same package multiple times. I think I'm getting some success by adding provide to the end of the package files. It feels clean this way.
<Nilby>
albusp: yes, I like the simplicity too. I even made my own require a long time ago. it's just a little quirky between implementations, and where/when it looks for files. And then there's the issue of compiling and compiler output.
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<Nilby>
_death: also the #+nil thing use to get triggered by trivial-features
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<_death>
what do you mean (about trivial-features)
<Nilby>
trivial-features would push NIL on *features* on some old obscure platforms that i used, activating crazy dead code
<Nilby>
and the #+nil joke in old asdf
<_death>
nasty
<Nilby>
it was maddening until I realized what was going on,
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<Nilby>
i still have in my .lisprc : (when (find :nil *features*) (error "NIL is in features!"))
<_death>
looking at asdf.lisp, the only place #+nil is used other than that smartassism is in *central-registry*.. which I guess could be modified in the implementation's rc file or something :)
<Nilby>
(push nil *features*) is yet another episode of "survive this sexp"
<_death>
reminds me of people changing *read-default-float-format* in a general context
<Nilby>
yes, another good one
<_death>
all is fine, until some code with single-float declarations and safety 0 nudges you into insanity because someone passed 5.31 to it
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<Nilby>
wow, let's keep everything rationals
<_death>
speaking of rationals, what about them integers?
<_death>
why does GCD not work on integers?
<_death>
I mean Gaussian integers of course
<Nilby>
exactly
<_death>
we need a new CL standard..
<Nilby>
agree
<Nilby>
we now see how the numeric tower can crumble
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<Nilby>
i think we should recode the numeric tower in p-adic church primes
<phoe>
Nilby: (push nil *features*) won't work
<_death>
:nil
<phoe>
you need to push :nil because #+ looks in the KEYWORD package which does not import CL:NIL
<_death>
the defensive nil'er uses #+cl:nil
* Nilby
is patching the "survive this sexp" game repo
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<albusp>
How can we tell lisp to ignore an undefined symbol for a class slot? I have this example and my-fn gives an obvious warning: https://www.codepile.net/pile/Ajy2W4QP
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<Bike>
even if you compile-file this whole thing?
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<albusp>
Bike: it doesn't after compile
<phoe>
albusp: if you are loading the file, then define my-fn earlier
<phoe>
if you are compiling the whole file, then this should be a non-issue
<albusp>
then the class is not defined warning for the function
<phoe>
class is not defined? what do you mean
<phoe>
MY-FN does not make use of class A in any way
<albusp>
sorry s2 not defined if function is before
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<albusp>
This is an example case of the cyclic definition I have
<phoe>
S2 does not need to be defined, it is a slot name
<phoe>
which implementation and version are you using?
<phoe>
I never really worry about such things, because I compile whole files most of the time
<phoe>
or rather, ASDF does it for me
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<phoe>
I'd compile the file and then load the resulting FASL to get the goodness of having the compiler treat the whole file as a compilation unit
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<albusp>
phoe: thanks for checking. oh well, you're probably right, don't worry. I was wondering if an ignorable declaration is possible with slots
<_death>
you can wrap your load form with with-compilation-unit, that may help
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<pve>
I'm wondering if there is an established technique to "scan" a stream for a string that would correspond to the characters READ would have consumed.
<[d]>
<_death#0000> you can wrap your load form with with-compilation-unit, that may help
<pve>
Silly example: (with-input-from-string (s "( 123 ) some more stuff") (scan s)) => "( 123 )"
<[d]>
<pve#0000> I'm wondering if there is an established technique to "scan" a stream for a string that would correspond to the characters READ would have consumed.
<[d]>
<albusp#0000> phoe: thanks for checking. oh well, you're probably right, don't worry. I was wondering if an ignorable declaration is possible with slots
<[d]>
<pve#0000> Silly example: (with-input-from-string (s "( 123 ) some more stuff") (scan s)) => "( 123 )"
<[d]>
<_death#0000> [edit]:
<[d]>
<pve#0000> [edit]:
<[d]>
<albusp#0000> [edit]:
<[d]>
<pve#0000> [edit]:
<_death>
pve: maybe you can utilize read-from-string's second value
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<pve>
_death: Yes that would work, but I'm not sure I can collect everything in the stream up to EOF into a string.. need to investigate further
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<_death>
oh, also check out make-echo-stream
<pve>
let me see
<_death>
(with-output-to-string (out) (with-input-from-string (stream "( 123 ) some more stuff") (let ((e (make-echo-stream stream out))) (read e))))
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<pve>
_death: thanks, you made my day :)
<_death>
I don't think I have any code that uses echo streams, so it's an interesting use case
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[d] was banned on #lisp by phoe [*!*discord@*.hsd1.wa.comcast.net]
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<phoe>
Xach: was float-features updated for the recent quicklisp dist?