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<dbotton>
There is nothing like working on a gui / web page etc and modifying it live with no need to reload etc I really love Common-Lisp, even just code in general is like modeling clay instead of flat paintings.
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<dbotton>
No really point in saying this here, but just wanted to show gratitude for the help given me by everyone and the great tools you all work on
<dbotton>
Is there a way to setup a "secure" lisp image that will limit system access etc?
<dbotton>
It once where letting someone eval code doesn't propose a danger beyond a crash
<dbotton>
It once = one
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<dbotton>
b
<dbotton>
(Sorry fingers... wrong window)
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<loke[m]>
dbotton: I don't think much work has been done on that topic.
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<dbotton>
I thought I saw something about sicl having that
<PuercoPop>
dbotton: it is in the sense of using first class environments to restrict the functions a lisp repl has access to. But not in the sense of say, restricting which part of the filesystem a syscall can access
<PuercoPop>
*sicl did some work on that topic in the senese of ...
<PuercoPop>
For the other sense you could look into customizing SBCL's main entry point (check the file in src/runtime/main.c) and use OpenBSD's pledge for sandboxing
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<Posterdati>
hi
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<Posterdati>
is it safe to use methods with structures?
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<Posterdati>
:) please...
<jackdaniel>
it is
<jackdaniel>
if you mean: methods that specialize on a structure class
<Posterdati>
yes
<ey[m]>
What is the best way to check if quicklisp is available in an environment ?
<jackdaniel>
maybe (find-package "QUICKLISP") ?
<Posterdati>
jackdaniel: thanks
<jackdaniel>
sure
<jackdaniel>
you may even specialize methods on builtin classes (like float)
<ey[m]>
jackdaniel: thanks
<jackdaniel>
mind, that {short,single,double,long}-float /are not/ specified to be a builtin class, so if you do specialize a method on one of these the implementation may happily error for you (it probably won't though, because they are usefull not mandated builtin classes)
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<Nilby>
I used to think that not being able to specialize on something like (unsigned-byte 8) was terrible, but now I realize that the CL type system is TOO powerful, and the choices seem to be either dumb down the type system or slow down and confound CLOS with mostly pointless type matching backflips, so it's a reasonable compromise.
<Nilby>
that said I think it might be reasonable to add a few more builtin types
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<shidima>
Is there a way to delete objects from my repl session?
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<_death>
my first thought was (progn (setf ** (setf *** (setf // (setf /// nil)))) (sb-ext:gc :full t)) but maybe you mean something else ;)
<jackdaniel>
and slime-clear-all-presentations ,)
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<heisig>
My favorite way of deleting objects is (change-class object 'deleted-object), where deleted-object is (defclass deleted-object ()).
<heisig>
It has the advantage that you can add 'finalizers' on update-instance-for-different-class :)
<flip214>
heisig: +1
<flip214>
the only problem is that security-sensitive slots in the old instance are not accessible anymore
<flip214>
to overwrite them, for example
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<jmercouris>
happy Mollusk Monday!
<heisig>
flip214: What is a security-sensitive slot?
<jackdaniel>
(password :initform "very secret" :initarg :password :accessor %password #|accessor is obscured for security|#) ;-)
<jmercouris>
maybe the whole point is that they are slots without accessors in their slot definition and have hand-implemented accessors
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<_death>
jackdaniel: I guess it should be (copy-seq "very secret").. then you (fill password #\*)
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<_death>
and how do functional languages handle this?
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<jmercouris>
what exactly? secrets?
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<_death>
zeroing secrets
<jmercouris>
probably via IO I would guess
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<_death>
not sure what you mean
<jmercouris>
the secret should never live in the VM of a functional language
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<jmercouris>
I don't know how to express what I am thinking
<aeth>
_death: remove all references to it and force a GC?
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<jmercouris>
I am kind of saying interact with it only via streams
<_death>
aeth: that doesn't ensure that the object is collected, or that memory is zeroed
<heisig>
The plan for SICL/CLOSOS is to use capabilities for such things. No capability for reading the password means you don't get to read the password.
<flip214>
there might well be accessors, it's just that their content should be removed lexically and not stay around in the heap, surfacing on a core dump or dump
<aeth>
_death: yeah, and it itself isn't a pure function
<heisig>
Zeroing a password sounds like protecting yourself against out-of-bounds reads. And why would any sane programming language allow that?
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<jmercouris>
on the other hand, can we trust *any* memory?
<_death>
heisig: maybe against interprocess reads
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<jmercouris>
we MUST have it in memory at some point to process it
<jmercouris>
unless you can process it as a stream char by char
<aeth>
heisig: Almost any non-trivial program to the point where you'd care about handling passwords is going to use CFFI, and the OS itself is basically one big CFFI.
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<jmercouris>
I think if your system is compromised by some malicious actor, you are already out of luck
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<jmercouris>
worrying about what exists in the stack is pointless
<heisig>
aeth: 1. I am trolling. 2. The plan for SICL/CLOSOS is to have all software written in Common Lisp and to have a reasonably trustworthy compiler.
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<flip214>
heisig: I see it the same way as a lexical variable - that doesn't spill into outer scopes too, so why should my secret be visible more than necessary?
<jmercouris>
I don't think you should worry about it
<flip214>
heisig: even 2 is not enough - /proc/PID/mem or pulling the RAM might still leak secrets.
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<jmercouris>
but that is just my 2 cents
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<jmercouris>
you know what else could leak secrets?
<flip214>
heisig: plan to have a MOVfuscator compiler plugin as well
<heisig>
The computing system I really want (and for which I'm willing to work a few decades) runs only safe code (preferably CL) and free software (as in, the compiler maintains a bidirectional mapping between any piece of assembler and the corresponding source code).
<heisig>
The main way of protecting myself from malicious code in such an environment would be to only run code from trusted parties. And if they try to fool me once, they are not a trusted party anymore.
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<heisig>
If everyone did that, we would have very few exploits. A developer would have to sacrifice his entire reputation to roll out an exploit, and they might still get caught by some review process.
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<flip214>
heisig: yeah, but as long as there are quite anonymous ways (github account is cheap) that won't really help
<flip214>
you just need an AI to produce a few thousand good-looking commits against some repo to build a reputation
<Nilby>
heisig: I agree, but sadly I don't trust firmware either
<heisig>
I know, what I describe is essentially sci-fi. But if enough people work on it, we could reach that state eventually.
<_death>
heisig: maybe my early background of reverse engineering is responsible, but it always seemed strange to me to talk about "source code" in relation to free software.. disassembling meant I could read, modify, and share the code, even if it's not the "source code".. and free software could be about permission to do just those things, without reference to a "source code"
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<_death>
is DISASSEMBLE not enough? ;)
<heisig>
Nilby: Neither do I. But we cannot stop fixing the world of software just because we haven't solved every other problem yet.
<Nilby>
heisig: agree. I've been try for years to replace as much of my stack with CL as possible. I wonder how far I have left to go.
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<Nilby>
_death: I have a habit of code reviewing binaries, but it's harder, and i'm usually less condifdent
<_death>
Nilby: for many years HIEW was my anti virus :)
<heisig>
_death: The FSF defines source code as the 'preferred form for modification'. I hope assembler is not your preferred representation for modifying software :)
<_death>
heisig: I understand.. it's mostly a tongue-in-cheek rant..
<Nilby>
_death: nice. that thing is awesome
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<lukego>
I'm just having my first serious look at SCREAMER. It's pretty cool, right?
<_death>
lukego: yeah.. I used it's in some solutions for aoc2020.. that also resulted in a patch or two
<Xach>
oh no, someone created a project named "cloak" and it's unrelated to the JVM-in-CL project from 20 years ago
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<Nilby>
it's a shame because it's a clever name, since java was oringally called oak
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<Cthulhux>
more like "urgh"
<nij>
Hi, is there lisp packages that take screencasts? I'm currently using ffmpeg but would like to get rid of bashism :P
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<rogersm>
Is there any way to return-form from a lambda without using block?
<minion>
rogersm, memo from beach: I recommend you use Clouseau instead. It is way more competent than the SLIME inspector.
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<beach>
rogersm: No, there is no such way. And there is no such thing as "a lambda" in Common Lisp. There is the concept of a "lambda expression" which is just data, and there is a concept of a "function", whether created directly using the LAMBDA operator or some other operator.
<rogersm>
thanks
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<beach>
Pleasure.
<nij>
So there's no way to get a lambda expression from a function, in general?
<nij>
(I asked this a while ago but didn't understand.)
<mfiano>
Speaking of conventions, what other "style guides" are there besides the LUV and Google style guides? I would think the former is not as visible as the latter, and they conflict each other in so many ways.
<_death>
the latter is much more controversial
<mfiano>
It seems they recommend an arbitrary 100 column maximum.
<nij>
mfiano: what is LUV?
<mfiano>
First thing I saw at a quick glance after several years since reading it, that is most definitely different
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<mfiano>
Lisp Users and Vendors Conference slides from Kent Pitman and Peter Norvig
<phoe>
30
<phoe>
oops
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<varjag>
ok looks like unversioned dylib loading issue on newer osxes
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<varjag>
phoe: that did the trick!
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<beach>
flip214: It would be unwise for inlining to use the original S-expression. There would be all kinds of issues like variable capture, multiple macro expansions, etc.
<flip214>
beach: yes, of course. I thought the questions was for documentation/reference purposes.
<beach>
I see.
<flip214>
thanks for the heads-up, anyway!
<flip214>
you're a delight to have around.
<beach>
Oh, thanks! *blush*
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<nij>
I have liberate some of my recording shell scripts into their Lisp form (https://bpa.st/RLAVO).. But it's still pretty shelly :-( Accepting any suggestion!
<beach>
nij: Maybe it's time for some formal training then. Perhaps read a book such as "Programming Language Concepts" by Peter Sestoft.
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<varjag>
did roswell get a hard dependency on libcurl3 with the last release?
<varjag>
suddenly my ci pipeline's crashing
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<varjag>
oh yes it did
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<nij>
I have a function that makes sound indefinitely. Without changing its "internal", how can I let it stop after 3 seconds? https://bpa.st/N2JQ
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<nij>
Hoping for things like: (terminate-in 3 (loop [..])) that runs the loop, and kills it after 3 seconds.
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<_death>
if you have a loop, you can do it there.. but for a less graceful way there's timers (see sbcl manual).. also I think there's a trivial-timers library though I've not used it
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<nij>
yep i'm planning to use a timer to kill a running loop
<nij>
but how can i identify the loop?
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<_death>
what do you mean identify the loop?.. in your loop you could test for a flag
<nij>
That's the trickier part.. I don't want to modify the loop internally.
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<Nilby>
if you're doing things at the same time, you're either using threads or processes, so you have ether a thread or a process id
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<recalloc>
I made a dependency tree to help me figure out where in my dependencies my memory leak should be, but TBH it probably made me more confused than before