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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<sda>
how do I make the string "!name: some-name" "<h3>Name:</h3> some-name<br>" ?
<sda>
using cl-ppcre preferrably
<beach>
Why do you need anything other than, say FORMAT?
<sda>
how would I do it in format ?
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<beach>
Well, it is hard to tell from your example what it is that you need exactly. I assume some-name is a variable?
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<sda>
no its just a substring in a string
<beach>
So your example has two strings. Do you want to make both?
<sda>
I'm trying to convert the string "!name: some-name-could-be-anything" to "<h3>Name:</h3> some-name-could-be-anything<br>"
<beach>
Ah, that's different.
<beach>
You didn't say "convert".
<flip214>
sda: either use CL-PPCRE, or write a parser (eg. via ESRAP), or use CL:READ with a custom readtable and a few reader macros.
<flip214>
Depending on how much time you've spent with regular expressions I'd suggest on of the first two ways.
<sda>
well I've not done much with regex, just know the very basics
<Nilby>
But regexp can have some notorious troubles, so I find it's best to just manually parse out a simple string.
<flip214>
sda: for HTML generation I generally suggest to use CL-WHO, but if it's only that one line you needn't bother
<sda>
flip214: it's just that one line
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<flip214>
well, (multiple-value-bind (full matches) (cl-ppcre:scan-to-strings "^!(.*?): *(.*)" input) ....) will give you the two parts you're interested in in (aref matches 0) and (... 1)
<beach>
Who was it that said that attempting to solve a problem using regular expressions results in two problems.
<beach>
?
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<sda>
hmm I think I should practice my regex
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<sda>
btw what other alternatives exists for parsing stuff like this ?
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<ldbeth>
well i figured that it is unsigned byte
<ldbeth>
\names
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<flip214>
minion: memo for sda: Take a look at the CL library ESRAP.
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell sda when he/she/it next speaks.
<pranavats>
minion: memo for sda: See also, cl-irregsexp and MaxPC parser combinators.
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell sda when he/she/it next speaks.
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<flip214>
beach: yeah, there's a saying. still, for small, quick text manipulation, RE are as dense as it gets (in both senses of the word ;)
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<beach>
Wow, chapter 4 of Land of Lisp is entitled "making decisions with conditions", but in fact it is about conditionALs. Also, on page 51 the author encourages the use of a list variable as a Boolean, and also reverses the IF branches compared to a proof by induction.
<beach>
This book contains so many problems I am getting really irritated.
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<beach>
Also on page 51, the author claims that the expressions (), '(), nil, and 'nil are "equivalent" without stating the context that would make them so.
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<beach>
No wonder so many people who come here have troubles with this stuff. We must start by making them forget lots of stuff they have "learned" from this book.
<beach>
And on one page CAR is a "function", but CDR is a "command". *sigh*
<Nilby>
I just looked at the pictures and jokes. I didn't even consider didactic robustness.
<beach>
The entire thing is written in a very sloppy way. I wonder who were the editors in charge of catching stuff like that.
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<Nilby>
I don't trust what I read, but I think the spirit and enthusiasm expressed in that book is good. If one can be mostly correct and fun, that's an amazing achievement.
<Nilby>
As you know, even the CL spec is wrong.
<Nilby>
sometimes
<Nilby>
But I agree, technically improper things written about Lisp make me cringe.
<beach>
I don't think using the correct terminology consistently would take away any fun.
<beach>
Also, there is a large number of people, me included, who get so distracted by inconsistencies like this, that they have a hard time appreciating the message at all.
<edgar-rft>
WhenI learned Lisp in the 1990s every second tutorial still used plain lists as conditionals and I agree with beach that this caused me lots of confusion.
<beach>
A large part of technical writing is to avoid distracting the reader with inconsistencies like that.
<Nilby>
I basically agree. Which I why I learned from the spec, and looked at that book for entertainment or inspiration.
<Nilby>
Maybe someday we'll get an updated version
<beach>
edgar-rft: Also, have you ever seen a proof by induction that starts with the induction hypothesis and its consequences? Reading code that is structured like that forces the person reading the code to keep in mind stuff that should have been gotten out of the way first.
<beach>
One should ALWAYS start with the base case.
<edgar-rft>
I don't consider "Land of Lisp" as a spec replacement but the problem is that it's most often read by *beginners* and then it's important to avoid confusion by all means.
<beach>
Exactly!
<beach>
And in fact, beginners are the target audience, I would imagine.
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<Nilby>
I guess that's why SICP is so revered, since I think in manages to be fun and correct and builds the proof from the base.
<beach>
That sounds right. I certainly don't remember any distractions of this kind from SICP. And that's a good thing.
<moon-child>
I found sicp incredibly dry
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<moon-child>
I mean it's very good, but certainly doesn't win any points for style
<beach>
moon-child: I hope you are not saying that inconsistencies and bad terminology make a book more interesting.
<moon-child>
the two are largely orthogonal
<beach>
Indeed.
<edgar-rft>
I'm still thankful to Conrad Barsky for writing a book that doesn't deter beginners with overly technical cruft but as it looks there had been some gaps during the production.
<edgar-rft>
I also assume that no-starch press is not a super-expensive publisher so we prably have to live with some deficiencies, but maybe there should be a note in the CLiki for example to inform beginners.
<Nilby>
I think Barsky makes some great points about the ethos of software with Lisp.
<Nilby>
But I also sometimes think it might be laugh-out-loud funny to see a formal semantics of CL like r5rs.
<engblom>
Is there any other book that would be better, but still a light read?
<moon-child>
I see pcl recommended a lot
<edgar-rft>
Nilby: isn't there enough BNF in the Hyperspec? :-)
<edgar-rft>
engblom: D. Touretzky's "Gentle introduction..." is *very* leightweight, P. Seibel's "Practical Common Lisp" comes next.
<beach>
But "Gentle" has problems of its own.
<edgar-rft>
beach: I only recommend if to people who don't even know what a computer is :-)
<beach>
Yeah, good plan.
<edgar-rft>
...but it helped me to understand how symbols work in Lisp.
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<engblom>
edgar-rft: "Gentle introduction..." seems to be very verbose: much text is used to explain trivial things
<beach>
edgar-rft: What did you learn about symbols from it?
<beach>
Actually, browsing "Gentle" now makes me think it is better than I remembered.
<edgar-rft>
engblom: I like to say that it's "Programming explained for Babies". If you have worked with other progranming languages before "Practical Common Lisp" is better
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<beach>
I guess "Gentle" was written before a top-level SETQ/SETF of undefined variables was undefined behavior.
<Nilby>
I first resolved to figure out what the words lambda cddar rplaca meant, so I could cheat at a game.
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<edgar-rft>
beach: I learned from Touretzky why a symbol can name a function and a variable at the same time and when it's used as what. Touretzky was the only book with a picture of all symbol slots (symbol-value, symbol-function, symbol-plist, docstring etc.) That picture helped me much when I was still new with Lisp.
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<beach>
edgar-rft: That's what I suspected. Interestingly, that's often the wrong way of thinking about it. Certainly the SYMBOL-VALUE is wrong.
<beach>
But I guess it may help a newbie get a somewhat consistent model of things.
<edgar-rft>
I said "when I was new..."
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<beach>
Sure.
<beach>
I would have much preferred that the chapter "Environment" in the standard would be about the global environment, and I would have preferred that SYMBOL-FUNCTION and FDEFINITION were specified there.
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<Nilby>
It's weird, I think global environments were a thing that everyone knew, at the time of the spec, were necessary in practice for big things like Emacs or an OS, and that every big implementaion had, but that they didn't want to burden small implementations with.
<beach>
The code in Touretzky seems to have consistent indentation. That's a plus. Many books get that wrong.
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<beach>
Nilby: Oh you mean first-class global environments? I just meant it as a model.
<beach>
The fact that it is "spread out" in a typical Common Lisp implementation doesn't make it less real.
<beach>
That's just an implementation detail.
<Nilby>
But I agree even conceptually, it's esay to miss when it's spread out.
<beach>
Yes, especially when the standard seems to encourage the reader to think about it that way.
<beach>
SYMBOL-FUNCTION is in the Symbols chapter. FDEFINITION is in the Data and Control Flow chapter.
<beach>
To me, they are both functions mapping names to functions in the global environment.
<Nilby>
I like the idea of an Environment chapter, especially if they were first class, but then what would the existing chapter be called?
<Nilby>
"Some Other Somewhat External Junk We Forgot To Mention"
<beach>
Good question. I need to think about that. Also, since it is a matter only of presentation, this issue could be fixed without altering the language. Maybe some future version of WSCL.
<beach>
Yeah. :)
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<beach>
I also like Touretzky's CONS diagrams. Those are pretty close to the what I use myself to explain lists to newbies.
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<beach>
Ah, found a case of incorrect indentation. :)
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<beach>
Many fewer problems than I thought.
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<beach>
And he starts recursion with the base case.
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<kevingal>
beach: are you reading Land of Lisp out of some masochistic pleasure, or do you keep running into it in the wild?
<beach>
I am reading it because it is part of my job to keep me informed about the literature, so that I can then give advice to potential students of Common Lisp.
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<beach>
So I guess, the former. :)
* ldbeth
looking up what is masochistic
<kevingal>
Fair enough! I've always thought that it makes sense to read books you don't like so that you can appreciate the ones that are more to your taste.
<luni>
maybe is simply more than a mere job...
<luni>
i should think at it like a mission or something like that
<beach>
luni: Right, my employer would not fire me if I omitted this book from my reading list.
<kevingal>
Re: Practical Common Lisp, I wouldn't recommend it as a learning resource. It describes features in excruciating detail and doesn't have exercises. Maybe it doesn't suit my style of learning.
<beach>
I personally never do the exercises, so I don't miss them when they are absent.
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<kevingal>
I like using it as a reference. Or when I vaguely understand a feature and want a full review.
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<flip214>
beach: I believe you're not the target audience of LoL anyway
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<beach>
flip214: You are definitely right. Hence my explanation for my reason for reading it.
<edgar-rft>
beach: not doing the exercises isn't really truely masochistic
<flip214>
well, curiosity is _always_ a valid reason, so I didn't think you'd need to explain anything
* ldbeth
never do the exercises, but will look the answers if it is provided
<beach>
edgar-rft: Sure. I meant, whenever I read text books in order to learn something, I never do the exercises. It saves a lot of time. :)
<jackdaniel>
books are overrated, the true lisper explores their innate deposit of wisdom and complain when the programming language does not match their intuition! :)
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<luni>
flip214: i think that depends on the objects anyways
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<jackdaniel>
(or asks on #lisp how to solve this particular topic being the beginner material)
<edgar-rft>
I also don't do the exercises, for exactly the same reasons, what is probably the reason why I never learn anything at all
<luni>
scientifically and technically speaking then yes
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<ldbeth>
unless it is sold to students, a good book should always includes answers to exersices
<jackdaniel>
why wouldn't student's be allowed to see answers in the book they own?
<jackdaniel>
I mean - if they cheat, they cheat only themselves
<ldbeth>
good question, i don't know, maybe it's just the exercises are easy
<jackdaniel>
in the amop book, excercises are marked as easy, demanding, hard and open problems afair
<kevingal>
I can't be sure that I've learned anything unless there's a way to test my knowledge. I'm actually doing exercises from a textbook as we speak, haha.
<kevingal>
amop =Something Something Meta Object Protocol?
<jackdaniel>
the art of metaobject protocol
<jackdaniel>
that's a book when mop was first described
<kevingal>
Then again, maybe the fact that I do the exercises is the reason that I don't finish many books.
<jackdaniel>
you may find (for free) two chapters of this book as a reference of said protocol here http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/
<joga>
hey... I just realized I borrowed amop to friend years ago and it's still there, thanks for mentioning it
<kevingal>
Thanks. I think it's on my reading list somewhere.
<jackdaniel>
sure
<ldbeth>
joga: sorry to your friend
<joga>
they also have a couple of other books :I
<jackdaniel>
is anyone aware of a library that offers a security model for common lisp? (i.e for various users)
<jackdaniel>
I saw a few ad-hoc solutions, but nothing crafted into a standalone abstraction
<jackdaniel>
i.e a library imlementing access control list or capabilities
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<jackdaniel>
implementing*
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<ldbeth>
jackdaniel: SYNAPSE: A multi-microprecessor lisp machine
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<jackdaniel>
I'm not interested in LM, I'm interested in common lisp library (or, eventually, specification for such security model)
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<ldbeth>
Sounds like you need something a object-oriented access control thing, guess I haven't totally forget it then. http://www.object-oriented-security.org
<jackdaniel>
thanks, I'm loosely aware what is the capability based security model; what I don't know is whether someone attempted to use it in common lisp
<jackdaniel>
the site you have mentioned mentions passing "messages" between objects, in Common Lisp enforcing the capability would be probably baked into the generic function
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<Josh_2>
Afternoon
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<mfiano>
Gripe of the day: It's annoying so many CL queue libraries are named with stack semantics (push/pop)
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<pfdietz>
QQ :)
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<splittist>
mfiano: serapeum uses enq and deq, which you may feel isn't much better (:
<mfiano>
Heh, yeah.
<mfiano>
Even lparallel uses push/pop. phoe is one of the only people that I can respect with enqueue/dequeue, though I think I suggested that while he was developing it :)
<splittist>
trivial-rename-queues to the rescue! (Once it's written, of course.)
* phoe
blushes
<phoe>
splittist: oh no
<mfiano>
Speaking of lparallel, there are quite a few issues, and no developer activity since 2016. Should we sharp that thing?
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* splittist
wonders if the fact his function is 120 lines long is affecting its debuggability...
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<phoe>
can it be factored?
<_death>
it's true that push/pop are better associated with push-down lists (stacks).. but it's not exclusive, you can push/pop on either end.. for example C++'s deque (double-ended queue) has (push|pop)-(front|back)
<phoe>
;; I now want a triple-ended queue with push/pop-middle
<heisig>
_death: C++ is not exactly a paragon of brilliantly naming things.
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<mfiano>
I vaguely recall a push_back or something similar
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<mfiano>
I haven't had to read C++ in quite a while, fortunately.
<_death>
heisig: it's just an example, in an argument about colloquial programmer jargon
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<splittist>
phoe: I'm about to find out. I foresee a lot of (declare special) in my future.
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<phoe>
splittist: oh goodness
<phoe>
is this function of yours free to look at?
* phoe
prepares €2 just in case
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<splittist>
phoe: yes. But not worth it just yet. It's trying to match identical subtrees using queues and hashtables and all manner of state. The real issue is that I don't quite understand it, yet (:
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* splittist
stops typing and starts thinking
<Nilby>
I think a real not simulated triple-ended queue would require non-linear memory.
<Nilby>
ironcially memory pretends to be linear when it's not
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<aggin>
how would I use FORMAT to print out the index of the current element I'm iterating through in ~{
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<_death>
there's no built-in way.. you can do it yourself
<aggin>
how ?
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<_death>
for example (format t "~{~{~A. ~A~}~%~}" '((1 a) (2 b) (3 c)))
<_death>
personally I'd just not use ~{ to do that
<beach>
FORMAT may not be the best tool here. LOOP might be better.
<aggin>
btw I was wondering how the ~/ directive worked in FORMAT, I couldn't find any example of it
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<kevingal_>
Public Service Announcement: equalp of two strings is case-insensitive.
<_death>
the clhs does mention the pprinter functions
<_death>
(format t "~/CL:PPRINT-TABULAR/" '(a b c d e f g h i j))
<aggin>
is there a way to collect in LOOP if a predicate is true or do I have to do it outside of it with REMOVE-IF
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<phoe>
aggin: (loop ... when ... collect ...)
<aggin>
ok thanks
<kevingal_>
Case-insensitivity somehow seems more arbitrary than case-sensitivity :D I guess I can't complain, since the language also allows you to fix it with a whiz-bang macro.
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<_death>
kevingal: when I started learning Lisp I worried about it, but over the years I came to prefer :upcase.. when I need to interoperate with some case-sensitive system doing the case translation myself or using strings or escaping seems to work well, it seems to discourages camelCase etc. in Lisp code, and in the repl when I have some char capitalized by mistake, I need not worry ;)
<_death>
it's also useful on irc discussions, where you can write FOO to hint that you're talking about the symbol, instead of, say, elisp convention of using `foo'
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<_death>
(and docstrings ;)
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<_death>
and sometimes for quick experiments I just write stuff in uppercase for the nostalgia value ;)
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<_death>
note to self: use uppercase the next time I demo SCREAMER to someone
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<mfiano>
It's all fine unless you're habits cause you to switch to a COBOL career
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<kevingal_>
death: makes sense! My surprise is more at the default behaviour of equalp. Not an issue once you're aware of it. By the way, what's SCREAMER?
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<_death>
kevingal: it's an oldie but goodie library for nondeterministic and constraint programming in Lisp
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<pfdietz>
equalp is not just case insensitive on strings, but also on characters. Also, it doesn't care about array-element-type. (equalp "a" #(#\A)) ==> true
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<gendl>
Hi, trying to start Slime with sbcl 2.1.2 (as installed by brew on an Intel Mac), set slime-lisp-implementation to ("sbcl") as well as full path to exe, as well as tried with :env ("SBCL_HOME=....") but...
<gendl>
getting:
<gendl>
wait... nevermind... just noticed I'm using a quite outdated Slime... trying with newest Quicklisp version..
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<gendl>
... yep that fixed it
<phoe>
hooray for self-fixing issues
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<MetaYan>
Xach: Is something wrong with the http://report.quicklisp.org/ generator? March 5th is the last one. And there are lots of errors since March 1st. Plus, you've dropped out from #quicklisp ;)
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