jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | offtopic --> #lispcafe
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<ldb> good morning
<fiddlerwoaroof> Is there a standard way to load a file only when a certain combinations of systems are loaded?
<fiddlerwoaroof> I'm thinking of wrapping some ASDF functionality to provide a way to have a system declare a "pending" component that is only actually compiled when some condition is met
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<ldb> fiddlerwoaroof: what do you think about #+ and #-
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<ldb> and *features*
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<fiddlerwoaroof> Doesn't handle the case where I load system1 and then load system2, but system1 has functinality that should be activated if system2 is loaded
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<fiddlerwoaroof> Imagine a library that exposes a generic iteration mechinism, like iterate: if fset is loaded, I want fset collections to be iterable
<fiddlerwoaroof> Currently, we have solutions like defining a system :iterate/fset that depends on fset
<fiddlerwoaroof> I'd like to be able to say "don't load this file yet, but if fset is ever loaded, load this file too"
<ldb> well, yes. but that means you have to recompile system1 after system2 loaded, if you want things done by ASDF
<fiddlerwoaroof> Well, sort of
<fiddlerwoaroof> If it were possible to design an ASDF extension that allowed systems to register pending components, then ASDF could just notice that the precondition for a pending component has been fulfilled and load it
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<fiddlerwoaroof> :'( minion
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<ldb> usually, we'd assume that there's no need to recompile a loaded system. so what I'd suggest is make that part of system1 become packaged with system2
<ldb> and make it optionally depdends on system2
<ldb> *I mean system1
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<fiddlerwoaroof> That doesn't work in the example I mentioend
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<fiddlerwoaroof> Assume I can't modify system2: it's a third party dependency, or whatever
<fiddlerwoaroof> Also assume I don't want users to be forced to depend on system2
<Alfr> fiddlerwoaroof, create a third system depending on both.
<fiddlerwoaroof> Finally assume that I don't want users to load a third system
<fiddlerwoaroof> Because that's annoying and results in a large number of systems
<fiddlerwoaroof> (one system per optional dependency)
<Alfr> Also I suspect not all systems can be sanely reloaded.
<fiddlerwoaroof> I'm not talking about reloading a system
<fiddlerwoaroof> What I'd like is for ASDF to have a "system-loaded-hook" that I could add functions to
<ldb> I think is hard to assume "can't modify system2" if system2 dependents on system1
<fiddlerwoaroof> So, think about iterate and fset: iterate shouldn't force users to load fset
<ldb> at least the authors should have some kind of cooperation
<fiddlerwoaroof> But users should be able to use iterate to iterate over data structures provided by fset
<ldb> fiddlerwoaroof: yes, and that probably means an "optional depdends on" feature
<fiddlerwoaroof> The issue with that is that it enforces an order between systems
<Alfr> That's where I'd expect to depend on a fset-iterate system, if I wanted to use that feature. Please don't make automagic dependencies.
<fiddlerwoaroof> With a long-running repl, I could load iterate yesterday and fset today
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<fiddlerwoaroof> iterate could tell ASDF "if fset is ever loaded, also load this file"
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<ldb> fiddlerwoaroof: this is the "Weakly depends on" feature mentioned in ASDF manual
<fiddlerwoaroof> No, that's different
<fiddlerwoaroof> Because that still attempts to force fset to be loaded when iterate is
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<ldb> you mean it will still load fset if it is found, and you want the user specify if they want use fset related feature?
<ldb> even the fset system is present?
<ldb> because make it depends on the order of loading system is too implicit
<ldb> and even weakly depends on doesn't do exactly you want, the recommendation "we recommend that you should instead write system foo in a parametric way, and offer some special variable and/or some hook to specialize its behaviour; then you should write a system foo+bar that does the hooking of things together." still apply to this situation
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<pfdietz> And then you have to manually load foo+bar.
<pfdietz> I have encountered this problem.
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<fiddlerwoaroof> I'm thinking of something like this: https://dpaste.org/GOGU
<fiddlerwoaroof> You have a *pending-component* registry that system definitions can push things into
<fiddlerwoaroof> load-system checks after each system is loaded, whether any pending components can now be loaded
<fiddlerwoaroof> If they can be, it loads them as well
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<etimmons> fiddlerwoaroof: have you seen https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf-system-connections/ ?
<fiddlerwoaroof> That looks sort of like what I'm interested in
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<fiddlerwoaroof> It works through an :AFTER method on ASDF:OPERATE
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<fiddlerwoaroof> Which means that it's a little fragile
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<texno> Good morning, beach
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<texno> I'm a beginner on CL, should I use setq or setf? Does it matter?
<beach> Welcome to #lisp.
<texno> Thank you :)
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<beach> The consensus seems to be to use SETF.
<Lycurgus> texno, you may also find #clnoobs useful
<beach> Lycurgus: No!
<beach> It has changed.
<beach> It is now #clschool
<Lycurgus> ah
<Lycurgus> wise move
<Lycurgus> i think the old redirects though
<beach> Ah, OK.
<texno> Thanks guys
<beach> Pleasure.
<Lycurgus> np
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<adlai> what is the equivalence class of the evils spanned by powers of modifications to LOCAL-TIME ?
<adlai> e.g., let's say I think LOCAL-TIME:FORMAT-TIMESTRING should be a generic function; are these powers acyclic?
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<flip214_> adlai: make a pull request on github
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<Guest12106> hi
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<Guest12106> how do i find out more info about a quicklisp library? looking for a website for cl-rss but find things that don't look right
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<beach> Hello Guest12106.
<beach> Did you download it and look at the source?
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<Guest12106> trying to now, dist-update is slow for some reason
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<phoe> replace phoe-toolbox for the system name that you want
<phoe> that's where ql is pulling a given system from.
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<phoe> oh wait
<phoe> Guest12106 is no longer here, I pinged the wrong person
<phoe> woop
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<flip214_> just another symlink
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<mfiano> Which generic function/qualifier do I want if I want to modify an instance that takes place after :default-initargs of the defclass are resolved?
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<Bike> if you want a modification to take place after, you mean? i can't parse this
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<mfiano> Yes, I want any slot values from :default-initargs to have been resolved before I do additional work in this method
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<Bike> the default initargs are just that, default initargs. they are added to the initargs to make-instance and so on. how they are "resolved" depends on what the initialization methods do with them.
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<splittist> mfiano: clhs 7.1 has a nice overview
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<mfiano> Yes, I typically supply keyword arguments to make-instance, but in this case I would like the default method behavior for initargs, and then to post-process any slot values without supplying each of several initargs to this method
<mfiano> Sorry if this does not parse well.
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<splittist> The very last moment to intervene using the standard mechanism is (I think) an :after method on INITIALIZE-INSTANCE.
<splittist> If you have your own MAKE-FOO function as the way to make FOOs you can do what you like, of course.
<Bike> mfiano: what i'm saying is that default-initargs can do anything depending on the initialization methods. you can have initialize-instance methods that take a keyword argument that doesn't correspond to a slot and do arbitrary things baesd on it.
<Bike> mfiano: the normal slot initializations take place in the primary method on shared-initialize, so if you want to do things after that, you can use an :after method on that or initialize-instance.
<Bike> or technically make-instance, but i don't recommend that
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<mfiano> I know this and it is usually what I do. In this case I have z few dozen initargs, and was wondering if I can have the default instance-instance method behavior, as to not specify each keyword argument myself in a custom method, and then later, modify them further
<mfiano> err initialize-instance
<Bike> sure. you probably want an :after on shared-initialize or initialize-instance.
<mfiano> That is indeed what I tried first, but slots are unbound. I'll restart my image and trace it further before asking for more help. Thank you
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<Josh_2> Good afternoon
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<pfdietz> Another approach is to not initialize the slot at object creation time, but write a method for slot-unbound that initializes it on the first access.
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<White_Flame> I'm getting an environment under osx going; is there a way to get ctrl-arrows to work there, or do people just rebind it to other keystrokes?
<White_Flame> under paredit
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