jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | offtopic --> #lispcafe
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<mfiano> Hmm I suppose there is no way to get the length of a Gray stream...this isn't going to work
<Bike> streams don't necessarily have lengths, right?
<mfiano> Right :(
<Bike> you don't need it for a slice thing, right? you just have to use LISTEN or whatever to see if there's more coming
<mfiano> I developed a vfs for use in my game engine, and I need to pass a gray stream denoting a slice of that binary stream to third party libraries that try calling file-length. I thought I could just reimplement the toplevel third party functions, but i don't really have a way to get the length
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<mfiano> A pile of libraries I want to pass a slice to expect a file stream
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<mfiano> And of course file-length isn't even generic
<Bike> it doesn't sound like your stream is in fact associated with a file anyway
<mfiano> It is not. THese libraries expect one that is is the problem
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<mfiano> Seems the only thing I can do is reimplement all or part of a pile of libraries
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<jasom> finally got my "chewing gum and duct tape" version of C-c C-c in emacs; see rendering of webpage change. Trying to decide if it's worth flushing out or not.
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<fiddlerwoaroof> jasom: cool, I did something like that with websockets once
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* fiddlerwoaroof has too many simultaneous projects
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<dyeplexer> Aside from Logo/MSWLogo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSWLogo), is there any other general purpose lisp dialect that makes brackets optional?
<beach> dyeplexer: There is no widely agreed-upon definition of "Lisp dialect". That is why this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, which is quite well defined.
<no-defun-allowed> If Logo counts, does ML ("Meta Language")?
<flip214> dyeplexer: I once wrote a lisp reader that inferred form borders by the indentation (like python), but I didn't like the layout
<dyeplexer> As far as I remember (last time I touched it 10 years ago or something) logo simply counts the number of arguments required by the function and puts the successive tokens as the function arguments
<dyeplexer> and brackets were only used to resolve precedence
<dyeplexer> i.e. no sensitivity to whitespace
<no-defun-allowed> Or what about Smalltalk-72, where objects would parse input themselves?
<flip214> that sounds like PostScript or Forth
<beach> dyeplexer: It would be very strange to call such a language a "Lisp dialect". One of the main features of Common Lisp is the fact that it is homoiconic, which you would then lose with such a language.
<flip214> but Common Lisp (and other Lisps) have variadic argument lists, so there need to be some markers
<dyeplexer> flip214: I imagine for variadic functions brackets would be mandatory
<flip214> beach: sorry, I don't understand that. as long as there's a reversible transformation (eg. parenthesis <=> indentation), why would that not maintain homoiconicity?
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<beach> flip214: Granted.
<beach> I took "optional" to mean that you can put some in if you like.
<beach> dyeplexer: You may want to try to ask you question in ##lisp. That channel should have a good time trying to determine what languages are "Lisp dialects".
<dyeplexer> I see, thanks
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<abbix> Hey
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<beach> Hello abbix.
<beach> abbix: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
<abbix> yes, I am
<beach> Great! Welcome!
<abbix> Thanks!
<beach> What brings you to #lisp?
<abbix> I've been learning/doing stuff with lisp
<beach> Sounds like a good idea.
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<Xach> Is there a way to tell if a symbol names a special variable?
<beach> Nope.
<Xach> That's it, I'm finished with this stupid language forever!
<beach> We need a revised standard.
<beach> Shouldn't be too hard to accomplish.
<Xach> (What I will actually do is look into implementation xref data instead.)
<beach> Just gather a few newbies who have programmed in JS an Python and let them decide.
<Shinmera> Colleen: tell Xach look up definitions
<Xach> I'm trying to find stale package :export symbols, and I'd like to distinguish between (defvar *foo*) and truly stale *foo*
<beach> Oh, that's very useful.
<Shinmera> mh, the doc page is a bit out of date, but it has (definitions:definition-p '*foo* 'definitions:special-variable)
<Xach> Shinmera: thanks
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<_death> (and (>= (length name) 1) (char= (first-char name) (last-char name) #\*)) ;)
<_death> or, for stale *foo*, maybe something like (defun specialp (symbol) (let ((mark (make-symbol "SHIBBO-LET"))) (handler-bind ((warning (lambda (c) (declare (ignore c)) (return-from specialp t))) (error (lambda (c) (declare (ignore c)) (return-from specialp nil)))) (eval `(let ((,symbol ',mark)) (declare (ignorable ,symbol)) (and (boundp ',symbol) (eq (symbol-value ',symbol) ',mark)))))))
<_death> though I guess boundp is enough
<Lycurgus> it's just an name convention isn't it?
<Lycurgus> in which case ... .
<Lycurgus> *a name convention
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<_death> should likely return two values.. is special? is definite answer?
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<_death> obviously redundant boundp check there..
<White_Flame> interesting, so this checks to see if a dynamic binding is created in the LET scope?
<_death> yeah.. boundp ignores lexical bindings
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<_death> the constantp can be pulled out of the eval and binding the symbol to NIL may violate a type declaration.. but it seems a good approximation at first sight
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<White_Flame> SBCL gives an undefined variable warning for non-special var usages; that's not required by the standard, right?
<beach> Are you sure EVAL is needed here?
<Bike> how would you do it without eval?
<beach> Just thinking. Let me think some more before I say anything I might regret.
<_death> beach: the issue is you need to bind (not necessarily dynamically) an arbitrary symbol
<Bike> the actual test is seeing if a new binding of the variable is special or not
<White_Flame> (high stakes brainstorming)
<beach> Yes, I see.
<White_Flame> progv then?
<Bike> progv always makes a special binding
<White_Flame> or does that always ... yeah
<Bike> the special declaration is actually a lexical property, confusingly enough, so i don't think there's any way to test it without evaluating some code
<Bike> (and of course this only works for global proclamations)
<_death> I am saying "bind a symbol" to give a hint on the intention; of course a lexical binding has no concept of symbols
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<White_Flame> of course, you could also give a code walker the var, outside the spec
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<White_Flame> s/the var/the symbol/
<Bike> if you have enough access to implementation extensions/internals that you can just ask if a variable is declared special in some environment, there's no need to do this
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<_death> grepping my third-party lisp libraries directory, I see specialp functions in introspect-environment (Bike's library) and ace.core as well, though they don't take this approach..
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<MrtnDk[m]> I thought I found a bug in Emacs, but I realise I probably have it configured wrongly. When I save a buffer that doesn't end with an empty line, Emacs adds one ...
<phoe> (setq mode-require-final-newline nil) ?
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<phoe> it seems to be a bit more complex, though, and a question to #emacs - but AFAIK almost all files on Unix either require or work well only with newlines at the end
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<fiddlerwoaroof> I wrote a special-p a while ago here, but I forget the details of how it worked
<fiddlerwoaroof> I think I made it a macro rather than a normal function, though
<phoe> doesn't cltl2 solve this? can't you call variable-information and check if there's a SPECIAL in there?
<phoe> it must be a macro in order to use cltl2, yes
<phoe> you don't get &environment otherwise
<Bike> sure, if the cltl2 implementation doesn't suck
<fiddlerwoaroof> Yeah, as long as you have a TRIVIAL-CLTL2 package
<phoe> oh!
<phoe> ...are we talking about implementations that don't have it? if yes, which ones are these?
<fiddlerwoaroof> I'd think trucler might have something like this too
<fiddlerwoaroof> https://termbin.com/79cc
<fiddlerwoaroof> Man, my formatting is horrible there
<fiddlerwoaroof> That's what I get for pasting from the repl: https://termbin.com/bozl
<fiddlerwoaroof> That doesn't work for locally-bound special variables, though
<Bike> it should if the trucler native client actually works.
<MrtnDk[m]> phoe Thanks, I was able to customize the variable to nil. I reckon if a file needs a newline, I just need to add one. I think this<del>bug</del> feature has bothered me for years, I just didn't realise what it was, until now. In this case I needed the file to be without trailing newline.
<phoe> yes, I see
<beach> Trucler in combination with Clostrum will work.
<phoe> I never ended up needing a file that does not end with a newline; I assume you have a different use case
<MrtnDk[m]> I don't know if #Emacs is bridged, otherwise I might report it as a bug, but I guess I just disagree on some of the defaults ...
<phoe> it isn't!
<phoe> #lisp is a lair of Common Lisp programmers
<phoe> #emacs is a lair of Emacs Lisp programmers
<phoe> these are distinct languages
<phoe> so you might want to jump there for emacs-specific discussion
<MrtnDk[m]> I know ... Sorry for asking here. Just that I've been working a lot with CL lately.
<phoe> no problem
<phoe> a lot of #lisp population uses emacs, so there's some overlap
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<edgar-rft> In Lisp a comment starts with a semicolon and ends with a newline. Some old Lisps had the problem that if the last line of a file is a comment and and doesn't end with a newline then the contents of the following file was considered as a comment, too, until the first newline. That's the reason for the "automatic newline" feature of Emacs.
<edgar-rft> The only Lisp with that problem I know in 2021 is the Nyquist interpreter in the Audacity audio editor wich is based on XLISP2 from somewhere in the 1980s.
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<fiddlerwoaroof> beach/Bike: yeah, I realized shortly after posting that this only worked for bindings in the null environment
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<VincentVega99> Anyone used hu.dwim.sdl before? After quickloading it, the bindings are generated, but nothing is exported (`hu.dwim.sdl:` will get me completions just for 3 things, none of which are actual bindings), do I misunderstand how to use it?
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<fiddlerwoaroof> VincentVega99: Are you looking at this package? hu.dwim.sdl.ffi
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<jcowan> Read-delimited list is specified to skip whitespace and comments before calling read, but it is unclear how to know what a comment is, as there is no such syntax type. Does that mean that the syntax of comments is not extensible.
<Bike> jcowan: read-delimited-list calls read, which calls reader macros. if a character has a macro function that reads some characters and then returns no values it's defining a comment syntax
<fiddlerwoaroof> (set-macro-character #\~ (get-macro-character #\;) nil) works as I expected with read-delimited-list
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<Bike> https://github.com/s-expressionists/Eclector/blob/master/code/reader/read-common.lisp#L66-L101 here is the function eclector uses in read-delimited-list to read something that might be a comment
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<Bike> as you can see, what it does is determine if the next character is a macro, and if it is, calls it, and if it returns no values, it's a comment
<jcowan> Consider a case in which { invokes read-delimited-list and passes } to it. Then { #|foo|# } would fail, except that read-delimited list knows that #|...|# is a comment and ignores it. This knowledge has to be hardwired.
<Bike> it is not
<fiddlerwoaroof> That's interesting, it means that there's at least one place where (values) isn't equivalent to returning nil
<Bike> the #| reader macro returns no values, which the higher level reader knows it was a comment
<Bike> knows means*
<Bike> it doesn't know about #| specifically
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<Bike> this is described in paragraph three of step 4 of the reader algorithm in CLHS 2.2
<fiddlerwoaroof> clhs 2.2
<Bike> or the fourth paragraph, i guess
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<Bike> comments couldn't really be a syntax type, since obviously in ";foo" the whole thing is a comment, including the F O characters that are alphabetic
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<VincentVega99> fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, hu.dwim.sdl.ffi is exporting nothing it seems. c2ffi-spec has these sort of lines, though: `(COMMON-LISP:EXPORT 'COMMON-LISP:NIL '#:HU.DWIM.SDL.FFI)`
<Bike> i guess you could have "start a comment" and "start a block comment" as syntax types, but reader macros handle it
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<Bike> fiddlerwoaroof: i think it's one of only three places where the number of values actually matters, the other two being multiple-value-call and the :no-error clause of handler-case
<Bike> fundamentally they all basically go through multiple-value-call, though
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<Bike> i guess you could count multiple-value-list as well
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<rpg> Slightly OT: did Travis just pull the plug on providing CI for open source software on GitHub?
<fiddlerwoaroof> I think they announced something like this a while ago
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<rpg> Yes, I seem to have gotten a small pool of credits that I "spent" without realizing it. It's hard to see how I could come up with more for lisp libraries. I suppose as a community this will make common-lisp.net more appealing. And also we will have to kick in some resources to help them scale up their CI.
<fe[nl]ix> rpg: Travis replaced the OSS tier with CPU credits in the "Free" tier, and that will keep going for a while
<fe[nl]ix> rpg: I doubt it will make common-lisp.net any more appealing
<rpg> fe[nl]ix: Right, but AFAICT the CPU credits don't ever refresh. So once they are gone, that's it.
<rpg> They have a ridiculous system of credits that is inflated by an order of magnitude (the "unit" is really 10 credits)
<fe[nl]ix> readily available integration with Github and reliability are more important (in practice)
<rpg> I have no idea how one refreshes the supply for $$$, either.
<rpg> fe[nl]ix: Well, readily available integration with GitLab isn't really so bad.
<rpg> Also, it seems like they have not set up the method for buying more credits!
<fiddlerwoaroof> I've mostly switched to Github actions and/or circleci
<fe[nl]ix> I think they want you to switch plans
<rpg> I think I want to switch plans to somebody who will explain things to me in very simple words!
<rpg> Now I am going to have a drink and not think about how I will do regression testing on my repositories!
<fiddlerwoaroof> I stopped using Travis a long time ago because of how difficult it was to debug broken travis builds
<fiddlerwoaroof> When I realized that CircleCI gives you a way to SSH into a failing build step and poke around, I was sold
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