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<Bike>
so ub8a is short for a simple-array of (unsigned-byte 8), and the optional parameter controls the dimension specification?
<mfiano>
Yes
<Bike>
the fact that you want to treat a bare integer as indicating a single-dimensional array, rather than as a rank, kind of complicates it. without that it would just be `(simple-array (unsigned-byte) ,length)
<Bike>
with that, i suppose ,(if (integerp length) `(,length) ,length)?
<Bike>
length should default to * which is what you want
<Bike>
so, ub8a by itself expands to (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) *)
<moon-child>
so length can be an arbitrary expression
<Bike>
though i did screw it up, i meant ,(if (integerp length) `(,length) length)
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<pyc>
What is the difference between these syntaxes: (require "asdf"), (require :asdf) and require ('asdf). The official ASDF documentation recommends the first syntax. Why?
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<beach>
You mean (require 'asdf) for the third case, right?
<beach>
REQUIRE uses string= so it is case sensitive, which would seem like "asdf" and :asdf would not both work, since the second one is converted to "ASDF" by STRING. But if you look at *modules*, it turns out that both "asdf" and "ASDF" are present.
<beach>
So the only practical difference is whether a symbol is created or not.
<pyc>
beach: is there one syntax that is more popular than the other?
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<beach>
I don't know. What I know is that you need to learn to decipher Common Lisp HyperSpec dictionary entries, which is what I just did, since I don't know these things by heart.
<beach>
Start by looking at REQUIRE...
<pyc>
thanks beach
<beach>
It says it takes a string designator...
<beach>
Now look in the glossary for "string designator"...
<beach>
It says it can be a string, a character, or a symbol. If it is a symbol, as in the second and third cases, then the name of the symbol is used. Which is "ASDF" in both those cases.
<beach>
Now, look at REQUIRE again. It says it uses STRING= to compare the stringified argument to the contents of *MODULES*.
<beach>
So it would seem that "asdf" and "ASDF" wouldn't both work.
<beach>
But if you look at your *MODULES*, you will see that both are present.
<beach>
And this is EXACTLY what I did, because I didn't know (or remember) ANY of this stuff.
<beach>
Which means, that you could do the same yourself.
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<beach>
pyc: If you follow the manipulations I suggested, and that I had to do myself in order to answer your question, then I think you will make it easier to find answers to your questions in the future.
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<beach>
Oh, well.
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<pyc>
beach: thanks for the detailed explanation. I am still not familiar with all the terminology used in CLHS but I will keep digging into the docs until it all begins to make sense.
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<beach>
pyc: Great!
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<pyc>
what does tymoon mean? I see it hosts many lisp channel logs but I can't find its meaning anywhere.
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<beach>
You need to ask Shinmera. He came up with it.
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<easye>
pyc: I think "tymoon" is an Japanese Anime reference.
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<beach>
That would make sense.
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<ldbeth>
wut, type moon reference
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<pyc>
I am on macOS. SBCL is consuming 500% CPU and I hear greatly increased fan noise. I am not running any code on it. How can I troubleshoot what SBCL is doing?
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<pyc>
problem solved. I had run an infinite recursion by mistake. Restarted the REPL.
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<Xach>
pyc: one option is to interrupt threads and induce them to print a backtrace.
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<phoe>
well, infinite loops are a good way to consume all CPU and make the fans spin
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<flip214>
phoe: My CL dialect runs an infinite loop in 3.5 secs!
<phoe>
:O
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<_death>
winter.sh: nice -n 19 infloop
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<flip214>
_death: rather "ulimit -t 3" and then "./infloop"
<_death>
well that won't keep you warm
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<flip214>
_death: well, I've got a shell loop that restarts that all the time
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<_death>
does it utilize sensors -j ?
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<lukego>
Hey the other day I was wondering if there was an UPDATEF macro for updating a place with an arbitrary function and it turns out that there is one, in Serapeum, called OPF.
<_death>
I see.. I'd prefer a modify macro like maxf
<lukego>
I never really connected with On Lisp. Maybe it's time for me to give it another go.
<lukego>
Indeed. I don't recall what the example was that I had last week but the specific macro didn't exist
<_death>
we have define-modify-macro for that ;)
<lukego>
and it feels a bit wonky having incf, maxf, appendf, nconcf, ..., but always more missing than defined
<lukego>
okay I'm showing my ignorance :)
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<lukego>
I've never actually dabbled in extending SETF and I usually associate that with defining places rather than updating methods. I should look properly into that too :)
<_death>
well, they may be missing, but once added the forms that use them are clear and simple.. (maxf x 3) instead of (_f max x 3) or whatever
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<lukego>
indeed.
<edgar-rft>
let's UPDATEF Common Lisp by replacing everything with arbitrary random functions
<lukego>
I should do some remedial Lisp reading.
<jackdaniel>
half of them with #'arbitrary and the other half with #'random ?
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<lukego>
aside - I really appreciate Serapeum. I like all these funky convenience macros but not if they make my code completely "lukego idiosyncratic." I can more easily accept being "serapeum idiomatic." Maybe there has always been subcommunities like this e.g. people who read On Lisp and adopted its various macros and can easily read each others' code.
<lukego>
(Or maybe I'm the only one using serapeum? I'm hooked)
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<splittist>
lukego: I use it, too. Although I also use alexandria (as alexandria) and split-sequence (as split-sequence). Which may be missing some of the point.
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<lxleuser_>
Hi
<Josh_2>
Hi
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<Xach>
lukego: the more lispers i meet the more i realize how many subcommunities there are
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<Xach>
lukego: and the "use IRC and SBCL" crowd is just one of them
<Josh_2>
best one tho
<Xach>
maybe! but a big mistake to think it's the only one
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<KYCb>
Sorry, who can help me with quick lisp, how to install packages, how to import package in my own project and use functions from it?
<Josh_2>
you install it, then you run (ql:quickload <projectname>)
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<beach>
Xach: Yes, it's easy to think that every Lisper knows what is going on if it is announced here. I have made that incorrect assumption several times.
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<jasom>
KYCb: how familiar are you with ASDF?
<aeth>
Every Lisper is their own subcommunity.
<Xach>
aeth: i'm of two minds about that
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<aeth>
You're two subcommunities?
<KYCb>
jasom: almost nothing
<Xach>
aeth: yes :~(
<aeth>
So am I.
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<jasom>
KYCb: so for just "I want to play around with this in the REPL" Josh_2's advice of: (ql:quickload "some-project") is sufficient. If you want to use projects from quicklisp in your own projects, then you should learn ASDF at some point. It lets you define your own systems, and tell it which other systems are dependencies. Quicklisp is "just" a way to automatically donwload any missing dependencies
<jasom>
for you.
<jmercouris>
how to check if a particular object is of a class?
<jmercouris>
It's on the tip of my tongue...
<jmercouris>
I could do class-of
<jasom>
jmercouris: the class specifically, or the class and any subtype, or the class and any supertype?
<jmercouris>
jasom: if it is anywhere in the inhertiance tree
<jmercouris>
s/inhertiance/inheritance
<jmercouris>
maybe I will have to use mopu for that
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<jasom>
jmercouris: typep should do what you want?
<jasom>
KYCb: the very shortest introduction to ASDF that I know of is https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/systems.html#asdf it includes links to the ASDF manual for reference, but I don't know of a middle ground between "Here's the basics" and "Here's all the documentation" perhaps someone else in this channel can recommend something.
<jmercouris>
I +1 the cookbook
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<jmercouris>
honestly, it is all you need
<jmercouris>
the rest you can figure out in due time
<jasom>
I learned the basics of ASDF almost 20 years ago, so I lack insight anymore into how to go about learning it
<jmercouris>
well, I am teaching someone now
<Xach>
The basics can get you quite far.
<jmercouris>
and most of the question is "what is asdf"
<jmercouris>
that's really hard to grasp in of itself
<jmercouris>
I know it is in the name, but it really doesn't mean anything to someone who doesn't know Lisp
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<jasom>
I could not define for you what a system is other than "A bunch of probably related files"
<jasom>
but the system definition defines what you can do with those files.
<jasom>
and 99% of the time it's "A bunch of lisp files that should all be loaded together as a unit, possibly in a specific order"
<Xach>
if you cannot afford an order, one will be appointed for you
<jasom>
:D
* jasom
kind of wishes poiu had caught on more so that there was a good reason to not just use :serial t
<jasom>
but relying on fork() made it DOA for portability
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<Bike>
well, you couldn't do it with threads
<jasom>
Bike: you *could* run-program it with a memory image
<Bike>
repeated save-lisp-and-die and startups seems like it might reduce any efficiency gain a fair bit
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<rpg>
jasom: Also kind of fatal for at-the-repl incremental development
<rpg>
jmercouris: A *very* important counter-intuitive thing about ASDF is that it's build plans ARE NOT HIERARCHICAL. You don't load the components of the system in a context of loading the system itself.
<thatpythonboy>
what else lib does it use for compiling a simple program composing of loops and functions
<Xach>
thatpythonboy: sbcl is not 300KB
<Xach>
thatpythonboy: the runtime program is around 300KB, but it "loads" a much larger memory image when it starts up.
<jasom>
thatpythonboy: it's about 34MB from what I see
<Xach>
that memory image contains the compiler and other useful things
<thatpythonboy>
i am talking of only compiler
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<thatpythonboy>
like tcc 200KB
<Xach>
It uses a compiler written in common lisp and saved in the startup memory image
<thatpythonboy>
but it's not a script?
<Xach>
It is not a script.
<thatpythonboy>
how small can a optimizing compiler be
<Xach>
For Common Lisp? Hard to say.
<thatpythonboy>
tcc let's say then
<Xach>
That is not the topic of this channel, sorry.
<thatpythonboy>
248K /usr/bin/tcc
<Xach>
We talk about Common Lisp here.
<beach>
thatpythonboy: The size of the compiler is not typically the main objective of the compiler writer. The performance of the generated code is usually more important.
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<heisig>
Legend has it CCL used to run using only 2MB of RAM. Its images have a size of 18Mb though. Still less than many fancy web pages.
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<jasom>
The PDP-11 only had ~1MB of *address space* and compilers ran on it
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<heisig>
jasom: Was there ever a PDP-11 running a full CL (all 978 external symbols, including the MOP and the condition system)?
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<Xach>
If we can crowdfund one for stassats, it's just a matter of time
<jasom>
correction PDP-10 not PDP-11 brainfart there
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<jasom>
heisig: definitely not a CLtL2 CL; I don't think MACLISP even ever got all the features in CLtL1, early CLtL1 lisps at MIT might have been on CADR?
<thatpythonboy>
so in 69 ram was only 1MB!
<jasom>
thatpythonboy: ram was much less than 1MB; the virtual memory was 1MB
<thatpythonboy>
what do you mean then it's not possible to run a UNIX which they had then
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<jasom>
thatpythonboy: you absolutely can run a unix in under 1MB of ram
<jasom>
heisig: the CADR had 24 bit virtual addresses and 22 bit physical addresses for 16/4MB limits on virtual and physical
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<heisig>
And here I sit thinking about buying a machine with 256GB of RAM and 256MB of L3 cache. What a time to be alive :)
<heisig>
I wish software would get more exciting at the same pace.
<jasom>
heisig: though Gold Hill Common lisp ran on PCs in the mid 80's that was probably more constrained than a CADR in the mid 70s
<thatpythonboy>
where is virtual memory cached , is it like swap
<jasom>
thatpythonboy: swap is indeed one option for backing virtual memory
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<thatpythonboy>
is it needed to store in storage the buffer to execute it, i prefer not to in emacs
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<jmercouris>
???
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<jmercouris>
What could that question possibly even mean
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<thatpythonboy>
can i put init.el in a loop like (loop every 1 second savefile)
<thatpythonboy>
but in that case init.el will never be terminated
<jmercouris>
Firstly, that question makes no sense, second ask on the emacs channel instead please
<thatpythonboy>
jmercouris: i did they won't help me
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<jmercouris>
Maybe because the question is so poorly formulated nobody can discern your meaning
<jmercouris>
You must write clearly if you want assistance
<thatpythonboy>
jmercouris: it's very clear to me, though.
<jmercouris>
I’m glad to hear it, I would be surprised if your own stream of consciousness is unclear to you
<thatpythonboy>
so i want to press C-enter and make emacs display the output within emacs so sthat i don't have to go to gnome-terminal to see it... simple
<jmercouris>
However, when communicating with other individuals who are NOT inside your head, you must make effort to be clear
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<thatpythonboy>
i am made to switch windows to terminal to see the ouptut but prefer not to go out
<thatpythonboy>
jmercouris: simple problem
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<dbotton>
Still haven't setup sbcl on my m1 Mac yet :(
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<asdflkj>
you could sell it and get a much faster Ryzen and a much lighter and thinner pinebook (when they're in stock)
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<dbotton>
alanz found error - thanks!
<alanz>
dbotton, np
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<dbotton>
Would you mind pulling and checking with sbcl
<dbotton>
I am in NY for the day and don't have access to anything but my Mac for now
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<dbotton>
Sorry for the bother alanz
<alanz>
not at all, I saw changes decided to take a look. Only too happy to be able to test for you
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<alanz>
dbotton, current master renders again. Nice to see it coming together. This is sbcl-2.1.1 on debian testing
<dbotton>
Thanks!
<dbotton>
Btw
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<dbotton>
I have not been able to get cl-dbi to work for sqlserver on my Mac - corruptions to data etc - if easy enough can let me know if works on your platform
<dbotton>
Sorry sqlite3
<dbotton>
No rush, I decided to after wasting much time trying to track down why to focus on the clog-web stuff and then go back to continue work on database integration
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<dbotton>
(Worst case is I will just design things using separate database bindings which maybe ideal anyways)
<alanz>
dbotton, plain cl-sqlite works, as well as mito which I am working with in my toy app
<dbotton>
Yes I am using that now on the clog-db-admin
<dbotton>
It is just cl-dbi that is not working well
<alanz>
great
<dbotton>
(It is in the tools dir)
<alanz>
yes, I have been using/playing with.
<alanz>
But I tend to just run sqlitebrowser, the sqlite GUI to see the db
<dbotton>
Of course - it is not yet a replacement and more of a quick tool to test things
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<alanz>
Which is how I understand it. And that is useful for a hosted offering, eventually.
<alanz>
Althoughy many manchines have been pwned through leaving phpmysqladmin exposed
<dbotton>
Well this will also be a very realistic replacement on a local machine but it may be a year or so till I can give it the tic for that
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<alanz>
yes, I see it very much as local machine apps only. It has no security stuff at all, as far as I know. At present.
<dbotton>
Since this is compile Lisp it helps a lot to deal with security
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<dbotton>
Correct that is coming
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<dbotton>
The auth framework is for sure part of 1.0
<alanz>
true. I just know securing web is hard, so steering away from that for now.
<dbotton>
That is where this tech has value as run https very hard to crack
<alanz>
yes, I was thinking that is a huge advantage.
<dbotton>
CLOG is not like php and lisp (unless someone does an eval...) helps
<alanz>
agree
<_death>
it could easily surpass sqlitebrowser in functionality if there's a way to customize presentation of values (that can be dispatched on particular columns, or other values).. for example some blobs may be images, or some serialization of data
<dbotton>
_death that is planned
<dbotton>
I have notes already on it
<dbotton>
gtg for now, alnaz thank you again
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<jeosol>
jason: are you using and have used poiu?
<jeosol>
I recently had a chat with Fare about it. He no longer works on it. I got some errors and posted on #sbcl but no leads yet.
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