#lisp on 2021-03-16 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2020-08-04 12:40 jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | offtopic --> #lispcafe

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00:34 <Xach> mfiano: slicer is missing

00:35 <mfiano> Xach: sorry again (isn't this the second time that happened?)

00:36 * mfiano needs to get better about merging my local branches

00:37 <Xach> slicer no slicing

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04:06 <beach> Good morning everyone!

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04:26 <phantomics> Morning beach

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05:13 <susam> Good morning, beach!

05:13 <susam> Good morning, everyone!

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06:41 <shrdlu68> Good morning lispers!

06:42 <White_Flame> good morning, mr winograd

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06:45 <shrdlu68> It's been a while since I was here, and I miss writing CL.

06:46 <White_Flame> CL certainly makes you miss it when you're not writing it

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06:50 <dni53363> can u hear me?

06:51 <dni53363> testing, testing. 1,2,3

06:51 <dni53363> hello world?

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06:52 <White_Flame> dni53363: yes

06:52 <dni53363> ty

06:52 <dni53363> cheers

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07:12 <ck_> shrdlu68: eta oin?

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07:16 <shrdlu68> ck_: Nope, Terry winograd's shrdlu. There's also a short story about a "sentient linotype machine"

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07:27 <ck_> shrdlu68: that's what I meant -- a chapter in one of Hofstadter's books that talks about it contains the full phrase "ETAOIN SHRDLU" unless I'm misremembering

07:30 <beach> That's it.

07:31 <beach> It is also supposedly the frequency order of letters in English.

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11:43 <asarch> How can you make the sed part?: cat file.txt | sed 's/},/&\n/g'

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11:47 <Xach> asarch: cl-ppcre would be one option

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12:14 <asarch> What's the difference between a string (an array) and a simple-array of type char?

12:14 <Xach> asarch: the simple-array is not specialized to contain only characters

12:15 <Xach> Sorry, I responded too quickly.

12:16 <Xach> asarch: a simple-array of type character is a simple-string, which is one kind of string.

12:16 <asarch> How can you traverse the simple-array content? (loop for element across my-array do ...) is not type vector

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12:16 <Xach> asarch: that is one correct way to do it.

12:17 <Xach> if the code signals an error, the data is the source of the error.

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12:17 <asarch> The simple-array char is from the (cl-ppcre:split "}," line) output

12:18 <Xach> asarch: cl-ppcre:split returns a list.

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12:19 <asarch> A list?!

12:19 <asarch> Ok :-P

12:19 <Xach> asarch: try it and see.

12:20 <asarch> Yeah, it worked!

12:21 <asarch> Is there a way to know what is something? E.g. (let ((buffer (foo))) (what-is buffer))?

12:21 <Xach> asarch: there are many ways to learn more about buffer. inspection is one option.

12:21 <Xach> describe, type-of, class-of too.

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13:55 <Josh_2> Good afternoon

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14:12 <asarch> Thank you Xach, thank you very much :-)

14:12 <asarch> Have a nice day

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17:13 <Josh_2> Slow afternoon today

17:13 <beach> Indeed!

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17:13 <Josh_2> How is your work coming along beach?

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17:13 <beach> Doing great thank you. Working on register allocation at the moment. What about you?

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17:41 <Josh_2> Yes what I'm working on is coming along nicely, It's my largest project yet

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18:34 <brandflake11> Hello all, where is a good page/book chapter to learn about navigating packages in lisp? I am a bit confused on how to use multiple packages together and want to learn how to navigate them better.

18:36 <Xach> brandflake11: i think practical common lisp offers useful info

18:36 <brandflake11> Xach: Practical Common Lisp is pretty much the lisp bible, isn't it?

18:37 <ck_> brandflake11: http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf is often recommended in the vicinity of discussions about packages

18:37 <brandflake11> ck_: Thank you, I would have never found that on my own!

18:40 <Xach> brandflake11: i like it

18:41 <Xach> I don't like the flownet paper very much

18:41 <Xach> To me it reads as though written by someone who thinks the package system is badly made, and wants to convince you of the same.

18:41 <Xach> Despite accurate info in many respects, I think that's a big drawback.

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18:49 <brandflake11> Xach: That is interesting. I guess the author didn't like it?

18:49 <Xach> brandflake11: That is my impression.

18:50 <Xach> Sort of like: "This is how it works. Can you believe how weird this is?"

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18:50 <brandflake11> Xach: lol, haters be hatin' I guess. XD

18:50 <White_Flame> also, GENSYM basically supercedes all uses of GENTEMP

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18:50 <Xach> So, I don't think it presents anything blatantly inaccurate. But I would caution against agreement with its tone of "This is dumb"

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18:52 <brandflake11> Xach: Okay, will do! Thanks so much for your help!

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18:53 <Xach> Don't take my word for it either! Read some books and docs, look at the design, and maybe you too will think it's dumb.

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18:54 <brandflake11> Xach: Yeah, it's good to have critiques. It's much healthier than just saying everything is perfect.

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18:55 <Xach> brandflake11: an interesting thing about common lisp is that the people who use it mostly do so because they really like it. so there's a selection bias there too. it's less common to be forced to use it for school or employment.

18:55 <Xach> If you hate the package system, you may not hang around and stick with CL, so

18:57 <brandflake11> Xach: What would I go to then? I need the parentheses! XD C++ looks so ugly now after lisp!

18:57 <brandflake11> Xach: Just kidding :D

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19:07 <Josh_2> brandflake11: you would just have to roll your own scheme :P

19:07 <brandflake11> Josh_2: Oh no

19:08 <White_Flame> and also the newer package-local-nicknames can make packages even better

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19:09 <White_Flame> since that alleviates some of the downsides of having a single flat namespace for packages

19:09 <White_Flame> (wherein normal CL nicknames collide)

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19:10 <White_Flame> brandflake11: if you have any specific questions, feel free to ask, too

19:10 <brandflake11> White_Flame: Thank you, I really appreciate it. I need to do reading first, but if I run into issues tht don't make sense, I'll come back here and ask. :)

19:12 <jasom> Xach: I never got the sense that Ron dislikes the package system, but I think that paper *is* mostly about pointing out the "gotchas" that you might run into with it.

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19:29 <_death> jasom: at the time he wrote another paper (lexicons) to present an alternative or a complementary to packages

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19:44 <Xach> jasom: I'm thinking of this sarcastic bit: > Obviously one of the “dangerous actions” that allows print-read consistency to be violated is calling IN-PACKAGE.

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19:44 <Xach> and there are plenty of things that talk about how hairy and confusing and inconsistent things are - which is not the mark of someone who likes the topic at hand

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19:45 <Xach> the "dangerous" language is from a cltl, not the spec - it should not be in a guide for ANSI CL

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19:48 <Xach> Anyway, I've disliked it as an intro for a long time. I think the operations of the package system are finite and knowable and there are simple ways to understand it. I don't like the approach of "you might THINK it works like this, but you're wrong! what a crock! here's what this weird thing actually does!"

19:49 <Xach> I'd like to annotate my tiny package system clone as a different way into thorough understanding

19:49 <Xach> alas, far far back burner

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19:54 <Xach> To put it another way, I don't really like the attack line of "This doesn't work like you might expect" when there isn't a reasonable priming of the expectation system by, say, reading the rules first.

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20:08 <kevingal_> I'd love to see a guide with visual examples. Each package is a box, symbols are written inside the box that represents their home package, the user is a little stick figure inside the current package, and you could draw arrows from user->symbol to show how to reference symbols in different packages.

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20:11 <kevingal_> I can see it now. The Visual Guide to Common Lisp Packages.

20:15 <_death> eh, if only clouseau had these arrows across panes :)... then you'd have something like what you described, kinda.. if you inspect the CL package you get a list of its symbols (in a box :).. the in the interactor you can run the Eval commmand with, say, 'block.. and then presumably it'd have an arrow from the symbol listed to the form result

20:16 <_death> also at the moment, mcclim is kinda broken (redisplay issues when accepting stuff).. oh well

20:17 <kevingal_> I might write such a guide myself, if it doesn't exist already. Clouseau notwithstanding :D

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20:31 <White_Flame> if we're throwing out wishlists, in slime I wish foo:<tab> would display not just the list of symbols, but also separate them into functions, special vars, and others, and display the functions with lambda list as well

20:32 <_death> hmm I remember there was such a thing.. maybe in sly?

20:32 <_death> https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/blob/master/doc/animations/company-flex-completion.gif

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20:37 <f-a> https://twitter.com/lisperati/status/1371848079108882442 ← what is a «dynamic var» in this case? (I am a functional programmer, just not a lisp one)

20:38 <Odin-> A non-lexical variable.

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20:38 <f-a> oh

20:38 <Bike> it's like an implicit parameter in haskell, kinda.

20:39 <Bike> i don't know if that helps.

20:39 <_death> https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node43.html

20:39 <f-a> yes it does

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20:39 <Odin-> It's basically a global variable, but with the sharpest edges filed off. :p

20:40 <f-a> yeah I was going to ask «why not a globalk

20:41 <f-a> +»

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20:48 <Alfr> f-a, because it doesn't have to be. You can (defun foo () (declare (special *x*)) *x*) (defun bar () (let ((*x* 42)) (declare (special *x*)) (foo))), now calling foo references an unbound *x* but calling bar is fine. (Assuming *x* isn't bound globally.)

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20:50 <Alfr> That said, using it in this way is prone to forgetting the special declaration.

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23:40 <phoe> FYI: I just fixed a really stupid bug in quicklisp-stats that loaded 2020 stats as 2021 stats.

23:40 <phoe> so if you used the quicklisp-stats 2021 data in any projects, this data is wrong

23:40 <phoe> sorry about the mess

23:41 <aeth> alternatively, that means that we already have stats for April 2021 :o

23:41 <aeth> (with the wrong data)

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