<Bike>
i mean, swank with nil communication style is an actual loop, it hangs intentionally
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<nij>
Hello! After I start a swank/slynk server, how do I check (in that repl) how many ports have been listening, and how many ports have been connected to how many instances?
<nij>
(I'm not looking for `M-x sly-list-connections`)
<Josh_2>
phoe: it was that. Thanks
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<mfiano>
Good luck to everyone participating in the Lisp Game Jam! We begin in 1 hour.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<daphnis>
Shinmera: thanks!
<Shinmera>
There's also Harmony which presents a higher-level interface. Unfortunately I haven't gotten around to writing extensive docs for either :(
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<Nilby>
spiral_fft >:-( sbcl optimizer: "am i a joke to you?"
<Shinmera>
?
<Shinmera>
spiral is in another entire ballpark.
<Shinmera>
so... yes.
<Nilby>
It bothers me in some way I didn't even know
<Shinmera>
I don't understand.
<Nilby>
Like is there even hope for humans to be programmers
<Shinmera>
Uh, sure. All the transforms and inputs spiral works with are human made. There's a lot of engineering ingenuity behind it.
<Shinmera>
The theory behind Spiral that allows it to generate code this efficient is quite interesting, but also quite off-topic.
<Nilby>
Yes. I was just wondering if there would be any hope to write such things like ffts and dcts and such in lisp and have any understanding when looking at a #'disassemble output
<Shinmera>
there's multiple fft libraries in lisp already iirc.
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<Nilby>
But if they have a 30x slowdown vs geneticly searched code..
<Nilby>
I must be a cavedweller since I guess modern ML bugs me too
<Nilby>
Sorry. Anyway your cl-mixed library is quite interesting.
<Nilby>
scymtym: Thanks. That actually makes me feel better, even if pkhuong is too smart for me to fully understand.
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<Shinmera>
I would love a Lisp backend for Spiral.
<scymtym>
Nilby: sure. and yes, pkhuong is something else
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<Nilby>
Shinmera: One could just fairly mechanically translate it's C into Lisp, since it's incomprehensible anyway, but I'm not sure it would retain it's properties.
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<Shinmera>
It would not. It would also be hard because at least te x86 generated code makes use of vector extensions
<Shinmera>
support for which is... well.
<Nilby>
I'm guessing you had to do libmixed in C for real performance issues?
<Shinmera>
it has brought me much anguish, but yes.
<Shinmera>
Real-time audio has very strict constraints.
<Shinmera>
I've still put a bunch of stuff into Lisp land, mostly the I/O parts at the ends that are cl-mixed extensions.
<Nilby>
You're a good to suffer the anguish for a good cause.
<Shinmera>
and libmixed is written in such a way that you can still integrate with it from lisp if you want to prototype.
<Nilby>
I'm still trying to keep my code all Lisp above the kernel, so I a can someday port to a LispOS, but I'm sure you know the difficulties.
<Shinmera>
I'm now in the business of having to sell stuff to people, and the sales numbers for people on a lispos would be way too low to bother supporting :)
<Shinmera>
In fact I'm even strongly considering dropping support for macOS, because the amount of effort required to keep up with Apple's constant stream of turds is probably not worth the earnings.
<Nilby>
Of course. One must get the art in front of the people
<Nilby>
That's sad, but sensible
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<splittist>
"I've suffered for my art. Now it's your turn."
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<splittist>
Shineraware is like an Aladdin's cave of goodness, by the way. So many thanks for all that.
<Nilby>
Big agree!
<no-defun-allowed>
A Lisp port of JEP 338 could be nice, except that a fallback without vector registers would probably be dog slow.
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<Shinmera>
splittist: Aw, thank you very much!
<Shinmera>
no-defun-allowed: trivial-vectors, here we come :^)
<no-defun-allowed>
Though I live off all the non-trivial instructions like PMOVMSKB
<no-defun-allowed>
Wouldn't mind some automatic vectorisation too. Just a bit, as a treat.
<Shinmera>
no-defun-allowed: by the way have you looked into using intel vtune to instrumetn your hash table efforts? I've found it quite useful to see what the processor is spending its time doing back when I had to do a project for low level optimisation.
<no-defun-allowed>
I have not. Would it work well with SBCL (and knowing Intel, an AMD processor)?
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<Shinmera>
SBCL should work yes, but AMD probably not.
<no-defun-allowed>
Though I was bummed out to read that Zen 1 only has a 128-bit vector doohickey, so I wouldn't have much of a chance at getting better throughput moving to AVX2 on this desktop.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Then if you have a NUMA machine, a metadata table is often a bad idea. And the trained eye will notice resizing is not wait-free. Lots of fun stuff.
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<Nilby>
I feel like all this harware that makes things hard is actually crap, there's a much better architecture, that doesn't have a bit width, and where we don't have to push electrons around so hard.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Usually, eh, I don't mind it so much, but I took a peep at register allocation today, and x86-64 has a bit of what us software people might call "cruft". But if you have backwards compatibility with the original IBM PC, then cruft is what you get.
<Nilby>
definitely lots of cruft in that silicon
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<jcowan>
In some domains there is no hope for "programmers". The original programmers were people who took code written in assembler by "analysts" and traanslated it into ones and zeros. Nobody does that any more, fortunately.
<jackdaniel>
and yet quality of that software banged with rocks was much more meticulus than many things written today
<jcowan>
Closer to our own time, who would write an LALR(1) parser nowadays without a yacc equivalent? Much better to write rules and semantic fragments.
<jackdaniel>
we've made spacecraft possible with 16kb of ram, you can't open the text editor
<jackdaniel>
with 16gb ;D
<jcowan>
jackdaniel: It had to be, since "programmers" were cheeap and machine time was unbelievably expensive.
<jackdaniel>
I think that this is not the whole story, but that's offtopic anyway
<jcowan>
The more skilled programmers become and the cheaper computers become, the more the emphasis shifts. Airplane embedded programming is still done very carefully.
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* Odin-
glances at Boeing.
<Josh_2>
Who doesn't love Electron products
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<splittist>
And yet we still obsess over performance.
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<Xach>
splittist: now performance tuning means saving money on AWS bills
* splittist
predicts that by the time trivial-treeshaker is developed and adopted the average lisp implementation will fit in a single neoTCP packet
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<splittist>
More constructively, I invite suggestions for a "baby's first ORM" to play with
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<attila_lendvai>
splittist, there's hu.dwim.perec ; it works pretty well with the postgresql backend
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<remby>
what parsing generator library would you recommend? I see quite a few on cliki.net
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<splittist>
remby: I have fun with esrap sometimes
<Shinmera>
splittist: ORMs are bad, mkay.
<lotuseater>
i recently stumbled upon a package for parser combinators
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<remby>
heh I just realized lisp would be a great language for a lalr parser
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<remby>
esrap looks good
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<Josh_2>
With Parenscript how can I give a javascript variable a lisp name?
<Josh_2>
kinda hard to describe but right now I have had to write (ps:lisp (format stream "var ~A;" <my var>)) to get it to initialize the variable
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<kagevf>
Josh_2: that link just shows some json ... was that the intention?
<Josh_2>
Shows my JS
<Josh_2>
https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2393#2393 here this is the code I'm basically trying to serialize a CL object into some javascript, store that under a variable name in a top level script which can be referenced in another part of my webpage
<Josh_2>
but I'm having to add that (ps:lisp (format ..)) in order to get var <variable-name>; to appear in the outputted JS, I'm trying to avoid that hackery
<jasom>
Josh_2: did you try (defvar (ps:lisp unique-id))?
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<jasom>
oh, I see that doesn't work
<jasom>
(ps:ps* `(defvar ,unique-id)) does work though
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<jasom>
(ps:defpsmacro var (name) `(defvar ,(eval name))) works as well, but is ugly
<jasom>
with the above macro you can do: (ps:ps (var (ps:lisp 'foo)))
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<jasom>
ignore the last 2 lines, they don't work because the binding isn't available at macroexpand time. Either use ps* or the raw format you currently use
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<kagevf>
what's the difference between ps:ps and ps:ps* ? I didn't really understand the difference reading the tutorial ...
<kagevf>
is it some kind of shorthand for defmacro?
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<jasom>
kagevf: ps:ps* evaluates the argument
<jasom>
ps:ps processes the parenscript at macroexpand time, so must take literal parenscript forms
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<kagevf>
I keep trying to use ps:symbol-to-js-string for this and it just blows up
<jasom>
kagevf: example?
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<kagevf>
this or slight variations of: (ps:ps (defvar (ps:symbol-to-js-string 'foo)))
<jasom>
kagevf: (ps:ps (defvar foo))
<jasom>
ps:symbol-to-js-string returns a string; defvar needs a literal symbol.
<kagevf>
right ... I think your solutions are better and more concise ... but if I didn't have those I think symbol-to-js-string is what I would try to use in my ignorance
<kagevf>
so is it better to think of it has an actual string in JS as opposed to the sting that's output by ps?
<kagevf>
maybe that's the connection I'm not making
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<kagevf>
alright ... this looks like what the intended usage for that function is:
<jasom>
ps transforms s-expressions into strings. A string (which is what symbol-to-js-string) in the s-expression will always output a string in javascript.
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<jasom>
kagevf: right
<kagevf>
is that typical usage of symbol-to-js-string?
<kagevf>
what I wrote, I mean
<jasom>
kagevf: the typical usage of symbol-to-js-string is not to use it?
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<kagevf>
haha ok
<jasom>
kagevf: or maybe for parsing json in a way that is compatible
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<kagevf>
"SYMBOL-TO-JS-STRING is the Parenscript function responsible for translating Common Lisp symbols to JavaScript identifiers" <-- that part in the reference is a little confusing, in light of what's been demonstrated here today
<jasom>
e.g. if your json library makes a hash-table you can (gethash (ps:symbol-to-js-string 'foo-bar) ...) to use the same identifiers in your PS as when you get from JSON
<jasom>
kagevf: *ah* it's used *internally* for doing that.
<kagevf>
a-ha! that example you just gave reconciles that part in the reference with the actual usage
<jasom>
Right below that is the intended use: "It is helpful for writing libraries or other pieces of code that will interface with Parenscript-generated JavaScript."
<kagevf>
ok ... it's clearer now :)
<jasom>
so if you run ps on the frontend and get js on the backend, your backend will use symbol-to-js-string
<jasom>
s/get js/get json/
<kagevf>
using parenscript on the backend? on the backend I would just use regular CL and something like cl-json, right? the hashtable example you wrote makes a lot of sense though ...
<kagevf>
ok ... I think by "backend" you mean generating the parenscript that will handle the json on the server/backend, for use on the frontend ... did I understand that right?
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